Snipers

[Ecks_Gecar]

Sounds like a good iea about snipers to me.

I think they cost more but have better range and accuracy.

[CorranSec]

Okay, that's a good mind trick idea. I think it would be best if it was area-effect, though, and made the unit unable to see any cloaked units. Also, the player shouldn't know the units have been mind tricked- no bright light above their heads or anything, otherwise the player will be screaming "INFILTRATION!"

 

Yeah, only units can be converted. And I think that damage shouldn't play a part on how easily converted it is, but instead the type of unit- for example, it's quick and easy to convert a Naboo trooper, but a Flash speeder or Champion (big assault mech thing) would take longer.

 

Summary: Light Side

Force Push: Targeted- point it in a direction, and does what Vostok says to units in that direction. Spreads out and effect lessens at it travels further away from the Jedi. Jedi Knight power.

Force Healing: Aura- the Jedi Master immobilises himself, but swiftly heals both himself and units surrounding him. Jedi Master power.

Force Persuasion: Area effect- enemy units in an area cannot see your Jedi or attack any of your units for a certain period of time. I don't think it should disappear if attacked though.

 

Summary: Dark Side

Force Grip: Target - right click to pick up a targeted small-sized (ie trooper) enemy, right click again on a location and the unit is thrown there. If thrown into other enemy units/buildings those enemies will be damaged. The unit is destroyed on impact. With less Force expenditure, you can not throw the unit and instead strangle him to death, or drop him (drop doesn't killing him, but if the Dark Jedi has to do something else fast...)

Force Lightning: Target - Blast any enemy unit with lightning. If there are other enemies near the target, the lightning will jump to them, with less damage per jump, to a total of 8 units. For example, a lightning blast would severely damage/destroy a lone AT-AT, but would also kill a mob of 8 troopers.

Conversion: Target - After a certain time period, enemy unit comes under your control. Cannot be targeted on buildings or other Masters.

[swphreak]

I think thos would be fine, but isn't it gonna be a lil like AoM?

[Admiral Vostok]

Corran - love your Force heal. That's a great way to represent it.

 

Not sure about the less Force expenditure option for Force Grip though.

 

I agree that the enemy won't know their units are Force Persuaded. That would be dumb. But if they watch the unit for long enough they could figure it out. Especially when they explicitely tell it to go and attack and it doesn't.

 

Force Persuasion wears off, right? I think it would be better to be permanent until the unit is attacked. Afterall, if you're trying to infiltrate attacking something isn't the best way to do it. That would strengthen the power to be fairly equal to conversion. You wouldn't be able to persuade turrets though - or would you?

[swphreak]

I would hope not. But then again, with conversion you can convert buildings. Plus, you can say that there are ppl operaing the turrents, and that you're "persuading" them.

[CorranSec]

Vostok: Thanks, I thought the Force heal was pretty realistic too.

 

Well, it makes more sense (the Grip thing). You should require more effort to toss one unit into a bunch of others during a pitched battle than to simply choke a wandering trooper, mistakenly thinking you were ambushing him and some of his comrades. It improves the fun factor and the realism factor.

 

Yes, Persuasion wears off- over a period of time. However, it makes sense to still allow them to be attacked. What if you accidentally attacked them? What if the Jedi Master is in fact helping troops spring an ambush?

Also, I don't think you should be able to persuade turrets.

 

SWPhreak: No, it's a lot different to AoM. AoM's myth unit/campaign hero powers can't be activated, and they're a lot different to the powers I'm proposing.

[Admiral Vostok]

Your grip suggestion might improve realism but I think it gets in the way of gameplay. How would you be able to chose between the two strengths? The best I can think of is you click to grip them and click to release. The longer the time between clicks the more damage the target takes and the more Force-power it costs. But you said you wanted it as a quicker way than running up and slashing with the saber, so I don't see how this would fit with your vision.

 

I don't think it makes sense to allow them to be attacked. It would be built into the AI that units do not automatically attack persuaded enemies, so there is no gameplay problem. And in terms of realism, no matter how weak-minded you are you're going to think something is amiss when you start to die.

[CorranSec]

About the grip: What do you mean, 'choose between two strengths'? It just means that Grip can still be used (and still be effectively used) if you just target it on a lone unit. And your idea basically destroys my concept of 'picking up and throwing,' which was my whole vision in the first place.

I don't want the grip as necessarily a 'quicker way.' Sure, it means you don't have to close with the target, but most importantly it's a better way. It should be easier to choke someone than to walk up and hack him to bits, and it should be more powerful to pick someone up and toss him into his comrades than just to rush up and hack them all to bits.

 

It does make sense to allow them to be attacked. Persuasion can take the form of a distraction, a muddling of the target's mind, even a flash of blindness.

"Oh, look, over there! I heard something move!" Jedi Master sneaks up behind and slashes patrolling guards (who have been Persuaded). And so on.

And also, it means that Persuasion has another (and very viable) use- ambushes and the like.

JM casts persuasion on a group of stormtroopers walking along a road. They all get distracted, have their vision impaired, whatever. JM signals his team of troopers to leap out from cover and attack the stormtroopers. Wham, bam, successful ambush.

 

But perhaps that could be another form of persuasion. There's the form that makes the JM 'invisible,' but this new one could reduce the LOS of units in an area to 0 (they can't see anything around them), which makes it perfect for ambushes.

[Admiral Vostok]

I still think it makes it overpowered if the unit can be attacked.

 

Gameplay:

You'll still be able to perform successful ambushes. The Jedi peruades an enemy guard, you get your troopers into firing position, and in one volley the guard is dead. The persuasion wore off, but it doesn't matter because he's dead from that one volley, and wasn't able to attack back.

 

The way you've described the ambuch still works perfectly well. Lets say you have inferior numbers. Your JM persuades a group of stormtroopers, let's say ten. Then with your five troopers, you can pick them off one by one and they won't get you at all.

 

However if the effect doesn't wear off when attacked, you'd be able to do a successful ambush with one trooper and not attack with your Jedi. Also, anyone with a large amount of Masters will be unstoppable. As soon as someone comes to attack, you Force persuade each unit so they can't hurt you and hack them to bits. It seems too overpowered.

 

Realism:

Okay, so you Force persuade someone to say "Oh, look, over there! I heard something move!" But let's say the initial Jedi slash doesn't kill the trooper. Is he still going to be trying to look for the moving thing after his arm falls off?

[CorranSec]

It's not overpowered. Perhaps the ambush distraction power could be a new power altogether, and in that case, it wouldn't be overpowered.

 

Wow, great ambush you had there. You managed to kil...... one trooper! There is no point, absolutely no point, in wasting such a power on a pathetic little 'ambush' like that.

 

See? My ambush works perfectly well, and it's supposed to. The Jedi Master is probably worth a lot more than all the stormtroopers and all your troopers put together, so it's not overpowered at all.

 

If the effect didn't wear off then attacking, then yes, you might be able to successfully ambush them with a single trooper. But if you're just facing one guard, you could just take him with the JM. And while we're at it, the player with the guard would probably notice immediately that his guard was being attacked by something he couldn't see, and send something (most likely a scout) out to check the situation.

 

A large amount of Jedi Masters would be rather good. However, you can only ever have 10 Jedi Masters, and most people won't get that many until near the end of the game, because they cost a very large amount.

 

Realism:

Yes indeed... a highly trained, fit and experienced unit with magical powers is going to miss a single, unknowing guard. The only time someone wielding a lightsaber would miss is if they were blind, deaf or stupid, and with the Force the first two can be rescinded anyway.

 

But to continue with the impossible hypothesis, the Jedi would still be able to kill the trooper. It's like this:

"Hey! What was that over there!"

*hack*

"Aaarg-"

*stab*

*trooper slumps to the ground*

"What's wrong, Bob? Oh no! You've been hacked to bits! Let me bend down and examine your corpse."

*slice*

*second trooper slumps down*

And so on......

[Admiral Vostok]

No, the persuasion only wears off the actual unit who is attacked, not everyone in the vicinity. So you persuade a group, and take out one at a time, and everything is fine. If you're killing them with the Jedi it won't be any different to your way, because the trooper is dead in one slice. All his other friends who are still persuaded have no idea one of their number just died.

 

Okay, different ambush. There are twenty stormtroopers, 5 AT-STs and an AT-AT coming along. They are all Force persuaded. Suddenly a single Jedi Master can take out the whole lot without a getting a scratch, because no one can attack him back.

 

Your scenario with the Jedi and Bob and friend would still work if the effect wears off. It would probably have a bit of a delay, so although it wears off the first guy still doesn't get a chance to get a shot at the Jedi. You yourself acknowledge that the first guy knows something is a miss when he screams "aaargh".

 

But it seems most of my confusion stems from the fact that you are talking about different things. Limit of ten masters? I don't like it. If there's going to be a limit, it should at least be scaled to the total population. Only being allowed ten Masters in a 300 population games is different to only being allowed ten Masters in a 25 population game.

 

Also, I imagine Force persuasion to work on all units, even Bounty Hunters (although they all Force powers might have a reduced effect on Bounty Hunters). I don't think we should have some units like scouts and turrets who can see invisible things. You should still be able to Persuade scouts. In short, I see the game as having no "detectors", but any invisibility (which is only present in my version of the game in the form of Force Persuasion) wears off when a unit is attacked.

[CorranSec]

1) Um.... well, that seems kinda annoying to me, and I'd rather have a "Persuasion" power as well as a "Distraction" power (persuasion is the one for ambushes, distraction is the sneaky one). With Distraction, an attack would ruin the effect, so it fits the 'sneaky' profile better. However, with persuasion, the units don't know what's coming....

 

2) Actually, they can see him, because even with a LOS of 0 you can see someone standing underneath the AT-AT hacking it up. And anyway, the AT-AT player could quickly send out a scout (possibly airborne) and let everyone see clearly again. But perhaps Persuasion won't wory on big mechs. And anyway, the area of effect won't be that big. A bunch of mechs do take up quite a lot of space.

 

3) And it would work far more effectively (and properly) with my Persuasion.

 

4) I wasn't imagining 25 pop games to be possible. Pop would probably vary from 100 pop to 350. But yes, varying the amount of masters based on the amount of pop seems reasonable (I was basing the 10 master limit around 300 pop).

 

5) Stop thinking GB1... there most likely won't be "Bounty Hunters" as such anyway. However, I don't think Persuasion (or distraction, or other Force powers) will work on all units. It depends on the power- for example, Grip is against actual people (troopers etc). Distraction will probably be against most units, apart from really big things (ie heavy mechs, cap ships). Persuasion will probably be the same. Buildings, however, are another matter. Perhaps you could just target persuasion/distraction on a building (defensive buildings ie turrets are what I'm thinking about), rather than it having an area.

 

6) Whoa whoa whoa... detectors still must, must, must be in the game! There will be plenty of stealth units other than JMs (ie submersibles, snipers, etc) and going back to the petty GB1 "reveal when firing" is a huge step backwards.

[Admiral Vostok]

1) Well we had the Force powers worked out rather neatly with three per side so I'm not a fan of having both persuasion and distraction. Distraction fits better with what we see in the movies (and read in the books for that matter) so it makes sense to have that one.

 

2) I thought they just couldn't see him, there was no reduction to LOS mentioned. Also, I was to understand persuasion prevented the unit from attacking as well, so even with a scout there to spot the persuaded units still won't be able to attack. I think persuasion should still work on big mechs, because although it isn't entirely realistic, in terms of gameplay it balances better with Sith Conversion (unless you're saying conversion will also not work on mechs).

 

3) No it would not work properly. Adding a delay for the wearing-off-when-attacked simulates the confusion after the initial blow, but having them be oblivious to attacks makes no sense at all, in any context.

 

4) Well I think 25 pop games should still be allowed. I really don't want to see anything that was possible in SWGB1 to be disallowed in SWGB2. 25 pop games are quite fun. I played one with 3 groups of two computers against me, and I tried to defeat them all only using Jedi. It was really fun, though it took an awful long time.

 

5) It is still SWGB2, so it should at least in some way resemble the original. There most likely won't be Bounty Hunters? Where are you getting this from (apart from your already-decided vision of SWGB2)? Of course there will be Bounty Hunters. They are a significant part of Star Wars so there absence from a Star Wars game will be noticeable.

 

6) Well if there are other stealth units (and I do support the inclusion of submersibles, though an invisible sniper I'm still not sold on) there should definitely be detectors. However, I think Jedi Persuasion is different from ordinary stealth. A detector will still not be able to see or attack the Jedi when persuaded. In short I think Stealth and Persuasion should be treated differently when it comes to detection.

[Darth M'ackel]

I think snipers are good units and i would like to pat the person who thought of them on the back!

[CorranSec]

1) Actually, we didn't have three per side. I had a few that I had come up with, and I was always planning to have more Knight/Padawan powers. And you yourself commented that the JM seemed a bit underpowered.

Distraction seems pretty irritating to me. As a gamer, I'd prefer Persuasion almost all the time. I'd like to include something to make Distraction more useful- make there be a point to sneaking into a base. Any input?

 

2) Check six posts back from this one, very last paragraph. Tsk, tsk, Vostok... it seems you haven't been paying much attention, hrmm?

If the persuaded units couldn't attack, and you could Persuade big mechs, this power would be overpowered. Enemy attacking your base? Pow. They can't attack, and are easy fodder for whatever you want to hit them with.

I don't think persuasion should prevent the unit from attacking. What would the point of that be? It's not a battle power, and if the unit has to attack, it means the JM has attacked, and the power has worn off anyway. Previously I didn't want them to be able to attack any of your units (to fit the 'ambush' profile), but Distraction makes that irrelevant.

 

3) Look! There is no 'wearing-off-when-attacked.' It wears off over time. 'Confusion after the initial blow' is an obvious case of gameplay>realism thinking (a thing you tend to do quite often in this thread), but if we must talk in those terms, I think the player will be plenty confused when his units are milling around and taking damage from who knows what. Having them oblivious to attacks makes sense in the most important context (gameplay), and realism, if you must consider it- the Jedi has persuaded them to be oblivious to his presence, after all.

 

4) Look. 25 pop games are useless in this kind of game. They may be good in Battle Realms or a Craft, but the minimum pop for a decent game should be around 100. Including them in GB1 was fairly pointless, and was generally only useful in scenarios.

 

5) It should resemble the original, sure, but it should be better. Bounty Hunters is an obviously generic thing (typical counter-unit)

and I'd rather something new and different. There may be bounty hunters (in such forms as hireable killers, highly trained stealth units, or things like mercenaries in AoM), but not Bounty Hunters (as in GB1).

 

6) Of course! I've always been saying that Jedi Persuasion is different to ordinary stealth. Quite simply, it's not a stealth power. It has nothing to do with stealth, and is instead just a trick that affects certain units. And there will be actual stealth units, so there should be actual detectors.

[Admiral Vostok]

1) Well obviously Persuasion is more attractive to use than Distraction, but I'm saying not to have Persuasion at all. I think when it comes to Force powers, don't have two that do "sort of the same" thing each power should be fairly different. So no having two types of Grip and no having two types of Mind Trick. We need to agree on one, not include both. However, when it comes to grip I think the longer the Jedi does it it takes more HP away from the nemy and they can be thrown further, catering for both types of Grip we suggested in the one Power.

 

2) Okay, missed that bit about LOS. I think it is a bad idea, because the enemy isn't supposed to know his units are mind-tricked. If he notices his guys with 0 LOS he's going to be on to an ambush. The reason I suggest taking away the ability to attack is so you can't get another unit to be a "spotter" for the tricked unit. And it wouldn't be overpowered when you compare it to Sith Conversion. Not only do converted units not attack you, they start attacking the enemy!

 

3) The reason I believe it should wear off when attacked is so there is an advantage to tricking a unit and just sneaking passed as opposed to tricking a unit and then killing him. Maybe to facilitate this mind trick wears off faster when the tricked unit is attacked. So you still get time to kill them, but you might be better served to leave them be and continue on your way.

I suppose this would also work with not-wearing-off-from-attacks. The enemy would get a message saying "you are being attacked!" and when he can't see anyone he sends in some not-tricked units to spot. Alternatively if the Jedi keeps going the enemy will be none the wiser. So it looks like you've acheived a minor victory, Corran. Perhaps it won't wear off from attacks - provided the enemy still gets a warning message.

 

4) I think 25 should still be allowable. As I said, I had fun with a 25 pop game, so it should not be removed.

 

5) As I said Bounty Hunters deserve to be in the game, and some of the ways you suggested there work quite well. I agree that making them a specifically anti-Jedi unit isn't the best idea. See my idea in the Official SWGB2 Thread.

 

6) Good. So mind trick works the same on detectors as it does on everyone else?

[CorranSec]

1) Not necessarily. As I was saying, I'd like there to be a point to sneaking into a base undetected. Could you help me think of something?

And anyway, they don't do 'sort of the same thing.' That's like saying that blaster troopers and strike mechs do 'sort of the same thing' because they both fire anti-trooper blaster bolts. They're quite different. They're both stealth-ish, but they're quite different.

As for grip... I never intended for it to be two different powers! As I quite clearly said before, it's the exact same power. It's just that once you pick someone up, you can either throw him, hold him, or drop him. Quite simple.

 

2) Ah, but the 'not knowing' thing applies to Distraction, not persuasion. Sure, they've been ambushed, and the player will know this. However, he has no idea what he's getting ambushed by, so he won't know what to send out and will be generally confused. And it's an area-effect power, so if a medium-sized group is travelling along in formation, most of them should get tricked. As for the spotter- would you send a scout to tag along a short distance away from every unit you send outside of you base? Anyway, if you do, that's a legitimate tactic.

But it turns out that the spotter tactic ruins the effect of persuasion, we could greatly reduce the range of the targeted units as well, or just reduce range and leave them their sight.

 

3) That sounds fine for Distraction, where the point is sneaking past, but the whole objective of Persuasion is for ambushes. If it wore off when attacked, it'd be a useless power.

And yes, I was always planning for there being an 'attacked' message. With that, you wouldn't need to have it wear off. However, if the Jedi's good enough, all the player would see is a corpse, and the Jedi could keep wandering on- is this good or bad?

 

4) You had fun with a GB1 25 pop game. In GB2, some units cost more than 25 pop. And anyway, most people have around 20 workers before they start thinking about military action, so the game just wouldn't be fun.

I'd be willing to consider 50 pop, but 25 is just ridiculous.

 

5) Wow. Finally, we agree on something. I'll check the GB2 thread right away...

 

6) I'm not sure whether you're talking about Distraction or Persuasion. But neither are actual stealth powers. So yes, they can work on detectors.

[Admiral Vostok]

1 - 3) You can't think of why you would want to sneak into a base? What do you use mind trick in SWGB1 for? If the enemy doesn't know I'm there, I can run in to his base and take out a shield generator ahead of an assault. Or maybe I want to take out his anti-air turrets before I send in my fighters and bombers? I also like to infiltrate to wreak havoc amongst their workers. All this would be a lot harder to do if the enemy knew you were coming. They'd be able to mobilise their forces to try and stop you, or beef up defense in vulnerable areas like amongst workers.

 

As I said in my post I'm coming around to the idea of not-wearing-off-when-attacked, because you can still use it to infiltrate. We can't have both Persuasion and Distraction, dispite what you think they are too similar because they both have to do with stealth. So I'm going to side with you and your persuasion, but I'll just summarise how I see it so I know we're talking about the same thing:

 

Mind Trick: Area effect. All enemies in the target area are unable to see enemy units. If an unaffected enemy unit is used as a spotter, the affected units can see and attack as normal, but are unable to see and attack anything the spotter can not. The effect wears off after a certain amount of time. Buildings are affected just like other units. Commanding Officers are immune. The effect does not wear off when an affected unit is attacked, but a warning is sounded for the enemy player.

 

4) I don't see the point of not allowing it. You might not play it, but that doesn't make it rubbish. It doesn't make sense to disallow something you could do in SWGB1. What is the disadvantage of having a 25 pop game allowed? If a unit cost 25 pop (which I can't see it doing, an AT-AT should cost probably 8 pop at most) you obviously won't be able to use it, and might have to - shock! - rethink your strategies. There really is no point to not allowing it. It does no harm at all.

 

5) Bounty Hunter topic now moved to the Official SWGB2 Thread.

 

6) -

[CorranSec]

1) One Jedi Master isn't going to be able to take out a shield generator. If there was absolutely no military forces in the base, and no fixed defenses around the building you want to hit, then sure, but otherwise no.

In GB1, you can have masses of Jedi Masters with Conversion. This is inappropriate for GB2, so I'd rather something else. I was thinking something like a 'self-destruct' button that the JM can hit on a building... a bit like the Spy in one of the Westwood games, can't remember which. Is this too overpowered?

And the enemy isn't going to know you're coming, because you'll be using Distraction on the guards, not Persuasion.

 

2) Look. Persuasion is a battle power, used to ambush travelling military forces. Distraction is an infitration power, used to sneak into enemy bases undetected.

Neither of them are actual 'stealth' powers (as in invisibility). And they're as different as, say, paintings and sculptures. Sure, both are art, but that doesn't mean we should meld them into one.

 

Distraction: Area effect. All enemy units in the target area have their Line Of Sight reduced to 1. The effect wears off after a certain amount of time.

The rest is quite obvious... of course it doesn't affect buildings (it'd be fairly pointless- oh no, my wall's LOS is reduced to 1!), of course it affects Officers (plenty of travelling forces would include Officers, and that would make the power quite useless), of course a warning is sounded. You'll probably be able to see the Jedi standing underneath your AT-AT hacking away at its legs, but I doubt you'll be able to do anything about it.

 

Alternatively, as an extra, Range could be reduced to 1.

 

4) Okay then, I'll allow it. But it just seems so pointless.... *sigh*. But Masters in 25 to 50 pop games will be really, really, really overpowered.

 

5) Ookay then...

 

6) Woop woop woop.

[swphreak]

Just give all Jedi/sith a stealth capability. Command & Conqeur: Generals has stealth units (the Snipers), and they stay stealthed unless tehy're movng or get too close to a unit that can see stealthed units. I'd say give all Jedi Masters or Knights the ability to stealth.

 

6) Hey those are perscription pants!

[CorranSec]

Phreak, have you read this entire thread? There are very good reasons for having these new, inventive, fun and more realism-grounded powers instead of the basic, boring stealth.

[swphreak]

Yes I know, and I think those are all fine powers. It's just that the Pursuasion and the Distraction sound kinda funny. Just give the jedi a stealth ability, and they could have a different power besides P & D

[Admiral Vostok]

Get rid of Distraction. Why would any one use it when they can just as easily Persuade?

 

Commanding Officers must be immune to it. Otherwise it would be way too powerful. Subordinates would still be vulnerable, but if your Commander is able to be Persuaded then a Master could Persuade units nearby, run up to the Commander and take him out. A Jedi Master should be able to take out an Officer quicker than a back-up force can move in to help him out. It is just way too overpowered.

 

How about this as an alternate concept:

You activate the Mind Trick power and the Jedi and unit inside a small radius are invisible to enemy units. Detectors can not see them, but as soon as the Jedi attacks the effect wears off. Any friendly units who attack lose the benefit, but can regain invisibility if they cease attacking. The Mind Trick wears off when the Jedi's Force Power runs out (it slowly gets used while Mind Trick is active), or when the Jedi selects to not use the power anymore, or if the Jedi attacks something as mentioned above.

 

Corran: Yes I've gone back to the wearing off when attacked... I just think it is both more realistic and better for gameplay.

[CorranSec]

Phreak: *sigh* Sound kinda funny? They're the best ideas that we've come up with! They benefit realism and gameplay! Why should we revert to the basic Stealth power?

 

Vostok: We should keep distraction, because it means you can sneak into bases undetected and wreak havoc, while Persuasion is a completely different power used for ambushes.

 

Okay, I see your point now. No Distraction/Persuasion on Field Officers, but Subordinates are vulnerable.

 

How about this as an alternate concept:

Quit trying to divert me from my chosen course. Why, oh why, oh why, do we want this 'mind trick' when Distraction and Persuasion are by far the best?

[Admiral Vostok]

I just think that having both Persuasion and Distraction is messy. Sure they are different, but not different enough in my opinion to warrant being different powers. A Jedi is using the same concept in both cases - concealing himself. All the other powers we've decided on are nice and discrete, not being similar to each other at all. It's a shame to have both of these I think.

 

A few posts ago you were asking me what purpose sneaking into a base would serve, and now your argument to keep distraction (which was originally my idea so I should have the right to throw it away) is based on the need to sneak into a base. I'm suggesting putting the two powers into one, so you can both infiltrate and ambush. Okay, get rid of the wearing-off-when-attacked if you want, but don't keep the two powers separate. Distraction AND Persuasion are not by far the best, but combining them into one is.