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els.DarkLord

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Is it just me? Or now that the lead programmer from Raven has started to post, there is a distinct underlining bitterness being expressed at him because the animation tools or the SP SDK never got released; being rude usually doesn't mean you get what you want!

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If you're referring to my post. I thought it out to deliberately not be insulting. I ammended what I was going to say after reading the later posts that ChangKhan supports modders quite keenly. The only part of my post which could be considered insulting was actually suggested to me by someone else who wasn't registered on the forums, and it was intended to be provocative rather than insulting.

 

The aim of my post was to try and understand the real reasons behind withholding the SDK (I don't really care either way, since all my singleplayer ideas are possible without it), i've never been convinced by the "financial suicide" argument... What I do know is that the only LEC game to really support modding has been JK, unfortunately the amazing team who made the game quit the company long ago.

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Originally posted by GSA_HertogJan

But I don't think it will be important for JK3 (or any JK game), since it's a pretty individual game, even in CTF...

 

Are you kidding me? You obviously don't play good CTF games. When I play, sometimes I just want to lash out and yell at someone for doing something stupid.

 

This game is not all single player either. I didn't even touch the campaign mode I don't think. It's multiplayer was the first of it's kind, that's why it was so popular.

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Originally posted by StormHammer

Er...you do know that Jedi Outcast took just over a year from start to finish to complete, don't you? They also knocked out Heretic II in a very short time.

 

Cool, I didn't know that.

 

Keep in mind that Raven have a team of over 70 people, usually working on 3 projects at a time...so they would probably allocate 20-25 people to each project when it's in full swing. That's 200 man-hours per day...and over the course of 6 months you're talking 36,500 man hours.

 

Let's hope its true then, they'll deliver the game in the specified date.

 

Considering they would be building on the work they already did for Jedi Outcast in terms of engine modification, a further 6 or 7 months of development time doesn't sound unrealistic to me.

 

Yes, it still sounds a little bit unrealistic to me anyways, I've heard they're improving some things too, adding RPG characteristics, mission types, larger maps, and so on, some may be simple, but others would require a little more effort that may (or may not) change around the engine itself.

 

I think it's too premature to state it'll be done until the end of this year. I'll keep my fingers crossed though. :)

 

As far as using the Q3:TA engine goes...they have a wealth of experience using it.

 

I am quite sure they are greatly tuned with this engine, a reason why I'll bet this game will be quite astonishing (if is not a hoax in first place), in playability, and storyline, and to be quite frank, I wasn't impressed with Doom 3...

 

Switching to another engine as a development platform takes time in getting your team up to speed with all it's nuances. As for using something like the Unreal engine...they would have to have a very good reason to make the $500,000 dollar licensing fee ...

 

Yes, and I am glad, someone isn't just dropping some eye-popping a new super whiz engine with a rotten core, some unplayable little "3D Mark" demo. Usually because the resources of playability weren't appropriately planned. I've got some of these titles on my shelf.

 

As I've said before, I'm not necessarily a fan of the Q3 tech...it seems to have a lot of inherent problems that require work-arounds. Other engines do have better capabilities, and I do think that Q3 is approaching the end of it's useful shelf-life for high-profile titles. I'll frankly be very interested to see what Raven can achieve by tweaking the new DOOM engine to meet their requirements...

 

That's when it mature out with the hardware out there... Most people doesn't have a GeForce FX or Radeon 9700... And when Doom 3 acquire its one year old label on the market.

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I thought I was talking with a fellow sw developer, I was only hoping it wasn't an exploited one. :D

 

Originally posted by Prime

I know that in general game programmers (who are usually younger and probably single) tend to work more hours than your standard software guy. Sleeping in the office, etc. is not all that uncommon. Indeed, it is not a lifestyle that people can handle forever...

 

I agree with you.

 

The good thing most people always end up realizing it isn't really worth it, until they find their most productive state of mind, if you know what I mean.

 

The younger programmers that usually stay up late in their works, are either the ones that are swept away by it's own ideas, or in the second sorry lifestyle you described, with their heads in how cozy their homes are.

 

But we're not talking with you Raven guys, now back to work! Or there will be no muffins for you. ;):p

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Edit: This is not necessarily directed towards Chang, and I am absolutly in no way attacking him or insulting him. He's a great guy and has helped me with my work many times. I'm simply trying to explain my beliefs in order to ultimately better the community.

 

You are absolutly right, DeT. I would never, ever expect LEC to release full engine source code. I would expect no more than what the MP SDK offers.

 

The logic of "create a whole new game" is flawed, because as you stated, the EULA would prevent us. Additionally, someone could effectively make their own multiplayer game, but the MP SDK was not witheld.

 

Half-Life is the single most greatest example for how a company's support (in general) for mods will help make the game successful. There are hundreds of mods for the game, the ones that stick out the most like Counterstrike, Team Fortress stuff, Firearms, Day of Defeat, etc., have helped the game survive and brought Valve and Sierra loads of cash. And unlike other games where you just download the mods, HL is even packaged with user made mods. I know people who already have the game and buy it again just to get the mods so they don't have to download them!

 

Jedi Knight is another good example. Although it was overshadowed by games like HL and Quake II, a wealth of people still edit this game today. Many people I know who edit JK don't like the game or even Star Wars at all! They edit and play the game solely for making and playing mods.

 

Another good example (especially for singleplayer) would be Dark Forces. The game has been out for nearly nine years and it still has a very active, albeit small community at df-21.net.

 

Now lets recap. Half-Life is one of the most successful games ever. It has one an unprecedented amount of awards. PC Gamer has given it the best game of all time award twice. I believe I can recall reading in the article that it would never have gotten as large and successful as it is without it's mod support, and certantly not all those awards. It certantly could not be where it is today without mods.

 

Now lets look at LEC. Dark Forces and Jedi Knight are two of their most successful and popular games ever. Both are fully editable (within the confines of the engine of course), and both games are alive today solely because they were completely editable (again, within confines of the engine).

 

Releasing full SDKs (once again, in confines of the engine and such) has helped many, many games stay alive and earn their publishers and developers much more money. It's very logical, and is a very, very sane business practice.

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Good point there Emon, I too believe that these games gain a few more years with mods.

 

And Counter-Strike is really the biggest example, since there are still people buying these games in full retail price.

 

Think also of CyberCafes and LanHouses, they buy these most played games in a ton.

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As for my thoughts on JKIII, I think that the team should try and include what was already availible from the large number of mods:

 

* Model scaling (a must IMO)

* Larger explosions (especially from thermal detonators)

* Ability to push/pull objects in-game

* Make Force Speed faster but last for a much, much shorter time

* Better looking sabers....from what I saw in the Gamestar screens I was a bit disappointed....think SFX mod...those are some nice sabers....

* More powerful lightning

 

As for SP only:

* Add force seeing, absorb, etc...

* Much more civilians to interact with (sorta RPG like)

* More animals/beast villains (think birds from JK1 and wolves from MOTS)

* Larger enviornments

 

Also....will this game boost the system requirements at all??

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A sequel so soon with such good news about it early on is a definite sign that LEC has acknowledged their screwup in JO and is determined to fix it. The use of only a modified JO engine is extremely friendly to the current mod community. Most all mods could be easily ported to the new game.

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Actually Emon, the Dark Forces source code was never released. They still don't have it, even after 8 or 9 years!

 

The lack of an SP SDK, does seriously inhibit the growth of some MODs, such as the Dark Forces MOD, or AOTC TC.

 

But still, there are ways round everything...

 

It would've been nice to see JKIII on a new engine, but I have theories as to why this isn't the case (excuse me if these have already been covered):

 

1. The only viable engine would be Doom 3. We've been told we'd be lucky to see Doom 3 by Christmas, more likely early 2004. That means that we won't see any licensed games until a while after that. Quake 4 will likely be the first, and at a guess I'd say we won't see that for 18 months or more. A possible JKII sequel on the Doom 3 engine wouldn't be out for about another 2 years from now...

 

2. Money grabbers. Capitalist LucasArts - that's what a lot of it boils down to. Using the Quake 3 engine means they can get the game out quickly, making more money. Also, they can hit the console market. No current console could run Doom 3 - but they can run Quake 3. Using the Doom 3 engine cuts a large chunk out of your prospective market. If they can get JKIII out on the Q3 engine by Christmas, they hit the holiday shopping sprees. Then they can get working on JK IV on a new engine, ready for a release further down the line.

 

To be honest, it all comes down to money at the end of the day folks - but that doesn't stop it from being a great game when it arrives!

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Originally posted by The_One

Actually Emon, the Dark Forces source code was never released. They still don't have it, even after 8 or 9 years!

 

An SDK isn't needed for Dark Forces, both Dark Forces and Jedi Knight use non-compiled data structures, meaning even a complete amatuer could work out how to make mods and levels. An SDK isn't the source code, its the tools and resources required for making mods and levels.

 

Modern games need SDK's because they don't have the same basic scripting of older games, they use proper compiled resources for greater efficiency and power.

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JK3 wouldn't be good on a new engine unless it was scheduled for two years from now. The mod community would be mighty pissed if they felt the pressure of having to abandon them because of a new game in town. Ports of projects will be tremendously easy.

 

And DeT is correct about DF and JK.

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Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

Besides, an SDK isn't the source code to the entire game. We wouldn't have access to the original Quake 3 engine code, or any of the additions Raven made. We would have the same kind of limitations as the multiplayer SDK. Afterall its not exactly within our power to release a standalone multiplayer game either.

 

The other issue here is that the game code was in a DLL and not the Quake 3-style VMs that are nice and safe. That's probably one of the biggest issues.

 

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

From past information Its obvious that you wanted to release as much as possible for modders, but the reasoning behind being unable to has generally not made a lot of sense. Especially when other gaming companies have made their fortune from making games easy to mod.

 

Actually, the only real examples of this are Quake and Half-Life, and both of those were multiplayer mods, not single-player mods. I can't really think of a single-player code mod for a game that has benefitted the developer or publisher at all....?

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Oh...and while we have Chang_Khan here....I was wondering if it would be possible to add the ability to ledge-grab? After playing such games as Tomb Raider and Indiana Jones...I think it's safe to say this would be a logical and significant addition to the game. The ability to grab onto a ledge after being push would add more balance to the game..

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Jedi Knight 3

Story & World

The game plays in the X-Men world and revolves around the coming-of-age story of Magma, a less known X-Men character (appearing first in New Mutants). The game features 19 Marvel mutant characters from various time periods, including Wolverine, Cyclops, Beast, Nightcrawler etc. The story is written by experienced Marvel writers, among them Joey Casey, Steven Seagle and more.

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Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]

The other issue here is that the game code was in a DLL and not the Quake 3-style VMs that are nice and safe. That's probably one of the biggest issues.

 

That actually makes a lot of sense, thanks :)

 

Since i'm assuming JK3 will face the same issues in terms of singleplayer development maybe include some more workarounds to problems? In JK2 we managed to include new NPCs using extra npc config files. Maybe extend this so we can have new quest/mission-based inventory items?

 

Maybe have it so you can have interconnected levels that you can go back and forth between, collecting items to solve puzzles in old areas etc. ie making it possible for editors to make Deus Ex style missions.

 

Although I don't know the inner-workings of the engine, these ideas don't sound too tricky to implement.

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