Emon Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN] Are you saying all of those games released the SP source code (I know we did, eventually, for EF, but don't know about any of the others)? Most of those, I imagine, are content mods with heavy scripting. People can do the same with JK2. Believe me, I'm not taking an anti-mod stance, here, I just don't think that releasing our SP code would have been a great idea. Especially since games with a strong theme like EF and JK2 generally don't get heavily modded. Most mods are for games with a more generic "flavor" and the mods are usually heavily-themed (think the Star Wars, Simpsons and Aliens mods for Doom, Quake, etc.) Raven games (for whatever reason), just don't have a history of being heavily modded, even when we do release the source code. Ideally, yes, it would have been nice to have more externalized data, but if it's between that and finishing the actual game features by the release date, I imagine we'd be expected to finish the game... :/ Many of the others either released game source, had lots of externalized data, or were like DF and JK where nothing was in a compiled format and could be easily understood by amatuers. I don't at all expect you guys to release any source code for SP, only some more externalized data so we can get some more freedom with our stuff. I don't know how you guys are coding your stuff, but I know it's not hard to parse a file in C and pull out a value for a variable... I just think even something small like that could go a long way. I know you guys are pressed for time probably, it has appeared over the years that LEC has tried to be release date Nazis, but we're just asking for the best you can do. Oh, and that's excellent news you will be using Q3Map2! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 I'd still like to see my FAKK2 styled combat system sometime worked into a game. It requires ragdoll physics and nearly perfect polygonal hit detection and more advanced animation keyframing and smoothing. Maybe in a few years it'll be possible on the AMD Athlonathon 9000+ and the Pentium VI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker77 Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Alright, I have two questions. 1) I checked the Lucasarts site to see if there was a announcement about JKIII(They usually get it right away), but there wasn't. Does anyone know if there will be one, and a official site for JKIII also? 2) Will there be different music in JKIII instead of the classic trilogy music we always hear in games? I mean, why not music from Attack of the Clones and The Phantom Menace? That's about it. Let me know what you think. (P.S. I'm not new here. I was here before, but I felt like changing my username. I'm no one you know in particular.) ---------------------------------- Student of the totally insane Yoda on crack that plays with balls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by Emon I'd still like to see my FAKK2 styled combat system sometime worked into a game. It requires ragdoll physics and nearly perfect polygonal hit detection and more advanced animation keyframing and smoothing. Maybe in a few years it'll be possible on the AMD Athlonathon 9000+ and the Pentium VI. Uh, I'm working on the polygonal hit detection. It's mostly working. The polygonal hit detection is in place but the animations don't 100% match server <-> client side. I'm working on that. But why would you need ragdoll physics for a FAKK2 style of combat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Cloak Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by C'jais There's no point in even make a single saber an option Actually...while you have a good point there, I really don't make much use of red stance and backstabbing. They're not as fast and furious...two of the things that makes saber combat what I like best. But balance...half good, half bad. [edit] I won't be happy if there isn't single sword. But I also won't be happy without dual bladed lightsabers...ESPECIALLY IN SINGLE PLAYER!! In fact, not only should WE as the players be able to use a lightstaff...but so should the enemies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSurfer Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by Dark Cloak I really don't make much use of red stance and backstabbing. They're not as fast and furious The Backstab was the most popular move in JK2, I hope to see it in JK3 as well. Don't say it wasn't fast, you had to actually know how to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Cloak Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Oh, don't get me wrong. It's nifty. I KNOW how to use it. I used it to win the duels I won when I first played JK2 online. It was kinda like I was using Iaido. Or something...yeah. But I'd just sidestep, swivel and backstab. Easy. The red stance, on the other hand...was cool for eye candy...but otherwise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Gnarly Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 i hated Jk2s saber fighting technics, dont get me wrong i liked finally being able to handle one in many ranges but the moves they did where like nothing from the movies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rat Boy Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 And haven't you noticed that some of the biggie sites like GameSpy or GameSpot haven't said a word about it? IGN and a couple of others had brief blurbs and summaries from the Gamestar article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by razorace Uh, I'm working on the polygonal hit detection. It's mostly working. The polygonal hit detection is in place but the animations don't 100% match server <-> client side. I'm working on that. But why would you need ragdoll physics for a FAKK2 style of combat? I meant much more accurate polygonal hit detection that what is capable in JO. The idea behind rogdoll physics would be that it could create the saber rebounds and stuff on the fly. You wouldn't need an animation for every way a saber could hit. Everything would be more dependant on the current situation. Your velocity, the velocity of your lightsaber, position of the enemy, etc. The FAKK2 part is just the style I'd use, e.g. a gun and a saber in each hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belgirion Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 "The Backstab was the most popular move in JK2, I hope to see it in JK3 as well. Don't say it wasn't fast, you had to actually know how to use it." Backstab doesn't take ANY skill at all...and it's the cheapest move too...don't even get me started on BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent_Thunder Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 I agree with KingPin... The Lightsaber fighting looked too much like REAL sword fighting in my opinion (but of course a lot more unpractical and acrobatic). I especially disliked the Heavy stance. We never see sabers moving that slow in the movies and it just makes little logic in the sense that lightsabers are extreemly light weapons. For a lightsaber to inflict more damage and break blocks better it would make sense for FAST attacks to me more effective, not purposely slow attacks. Also, I hated the way Heavy vs Heavy lightsaber battles were engaged... It seemed too much like jousting. I think most people would agree with me that a light versus light battle is far more enjoyable to either watch or participate in than a heavy versus heavy battle I think they should really watch the EP1 lightsaber battle over and over again until the developers can emulate something that moves somewhat similar to that. Although I personally thought the ESB lightsaber duel had the coolest moves, I think the one in EP1 had the best variety, and would be best to observe. Really though, I think the main thing that is preventing movie like lightsaber battles is the auto blocking. With Auto block people are afraid of getting hit -- which causes the jousting mindset -- they don't want to get hit since they can't completely control wether they block the attack or not. If the developers made a system where it's a GOOD idea to intercept an attack with a block YOU control (ie; a manual block) than most fights will be up close, and movie like since there's less of a reason to hit and run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonkish Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by AKPiggott Mike, any chance you could keep a lot more elements soft-coded for us SP editors? It'll be great if the player model, saber colour and other little bits could be modified in some sort of DAT file or through ICARUS. I concur! Although I assume that because we can (apparently) configure the saber color of our jedi in the normal game, that SP saber color is probably (or rather, hopefully) much easier to change, I hope the same is true for the SP player model... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 You guys need to relax... we barely know what's going into this game yet. There isn't even an offical site for it yet! I'm sure LEC and Raven have ackknowledged and understand their mistakes. They wouldn't be making a sequel so soon unless they didn't want to correct them in a sequel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSurfer Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by Belgirion Backstab doesn't take ANY skill at all...and it's the cheapest move too...don't even get me started on BS Dude do you know how many people left because of the 1.04 patch? Over half, you know why? Because people liked it. "Like OMG OMG don't get me started about BS!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Gnarly Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by CanadianSurfer Dude do you know how many people left because of the 1.04 patch? Over half, you know why? Because people liked it. "Like OMG OMG don't get me started about BS!!!" true i was one of those people who left, but ended up coming back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Killa Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 1) I thing ragdoll would be nice. 2) I think that i should be able to use or atleast convert my old maps in jk3. 3) I think u sould have a single as well as double and doublebladed light sabers. 4) Saber combat should be more tha just "canned" prefabricated moves. 5) WE NEED A MIGGET YODA !!!!!! I love fighting against larger characters with the yoda model in it's small state it has a ver ep2 feel and to me is very exciting in combat. 6) weapons that fit more into the movies. 7) make push and pull less effective like to where u have to aim directly at the person cause ui'm tired of getting pushed and pulled off of ledges. also grip whores are really annoying. EDIT 8) OMG can't belive i forgot to say JK3 NEEDS BETTER BOT SUPPORT. The bots in Jk2 sucked and whenever i try makeing them jedi masters or something i saw no improvement in their skillz. 9) also bot routing in jk3 needs to be easier to implement walking around a map and pressing a button is very time consuming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by CanadianSurfer Dude do you know how many people left because of the 1.04 patch? Over half, you know why? Because people liked it. First, many people left because they thought 1.04 nerfed saber combat altogether, and just gave up because they thought 1.02 was the best. Second, "over half" is a total bull**** statistic you made up on the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by Emon I meant much more accurate polygonal hit detection that what is capable in JO. The idea behind rogdoll physics would be that it could create the saber rebounds and stuff on the fly. You wouldn't need an animation for every way a saber could hit. Everything would be more dependant on the current situation. Your velocity, the velocity of your lightsaber, position of the enemy, etc. The FAKK2 part is just the style I'd use, e.g. a gun and a saber in each hand. Well, the most of the hit detection you see in baseJK2 MP isn't polygon collision. You only ever see polygon collisions when you use g_ghoul2sabercollisions AND it's only for body hits, not saber on saber stuff. Plus, the animations are screwed up to a degree so even that seems to work poorly. I got some demo if you're interested in see what's possible with the ghoul2 system in JK2. The only problem is that Raven barely used it in MP. As for "rag doll" physics, they're useless for saber combat. Rag doll means simulation of a rag doll (limp/no muscles) not a saber combater. The most advanced system for body simulation (for games, that I know of ) is the UT2k3 karma engine, which took years to make and in a state-of-the-art engine built with Karma in mind. Sure, dynamic on-the-fly physics are possible but very, very complex because you have to simulate the range of motions, break strength, muscle strength/speed/etc. Plus, the hardware requirements would be insane. Basically, it's very possible, but I wouldn't expect something like that anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSurfer Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 All I heard was bla bla bla. Shut up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_windu|CLU| Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 i agree, the bots in jo suck, we need better saber/gun combat too. oh, and there has 2 be counters for the force powers. rag doll must must, and killa, u spelled midget wrong... i agree with map maker, a: because he makes a good point. B: i told him 2 type some of this stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 1) I thing ragdoll is a must have. So you're saying you wouldn't buy JK3 otherwise? Let's just say you're not going to have to worry about saving up for it then. All I heard was bla bla bla. Shut up Wow. That was a intelligent post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by razorace Well, the most of the hit detection you see in baseJK2 MP isn't polygon collision. You only ever see polygon collisions when you use g_ghoul2sabercollisions AND it's only for body hits, not saber on saber stuff. Plus, the animations are screwed up to a degree so even that seems to work poorly. I got some demo if you're interested in see what's possible with the ghoul2 system in JK2. The only problem is that Raven barely used it in MP. As for "rag doll" physics, they're useless for saber combat. Rag doll means simulation of a rag doll (limp/no muscles) not a saber combater. The most advanced system for body simulation (for games, that I know of ) is the UT2k3 karma engine, which took years to make and in a state-of-the-art engine built with Karma in mind. Sure, dynamic on-the-fly physics are possible but very, very complex because you have to simulate the range of motions, break strength, muscle strength/speed/etc. Plus, the hardware requirements would be insane. Basically, it's very possible, but I wouldn't expect something like that anytime soon. I meant really good detection not feasable in SP or MP. You're right about ragdoll, that isn't what I meant. I meant having physics calculated for each vertex. Yes, it would take a ****load of processing power, which is why I said Athlonathan 9000+ By the way, the Havok physics engine in DX:IW owns the Karma physics engine. And they're on the same engine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Originally posted by Emon I meant really good detection not feasable in SP or MP. Have you even seen the Ghoul2 tracing function?! That's perpolygon detection! We just gotta update the system to support it well. The only possible problem is that the saber system is only checked at 20 fps (simed 40 fps with interplotation) and we can't really change that without risking stablity. However, 20fps seems to work pretty good in my experiments as long as the ghoul2 attack traces are a bit larger than the actual ghoul2 saber blade. Still, it's WAY better than the standard MP saber "box battle" system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emon Posted April 2, 2003 Share Posted April 2, 2003 Okay, now get it to work with per-vertex physics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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