Gameplay Suggestions

[pds.silentsoul]

Dear Raven,

 

When Jedi Outcast came out I was another enthused star wars fan in heaven. I loved the game very much and overall it was balanced between lightsabers and guns in the beginning.

[pds.silentsoul]

woops, i goofed and hit tab enter. the rest of the post is here...

 

 

Then Raven decided to patch the game and change all the ammo requirements for certain guns and the manna requirements for certain force powers. I'm sorry guys but once a game is out and has been for a month or 2 you cannot change 90% of the gameplay and expect people to continue playing your game. I feel I represent a majority of jk2 players which are not represented on this board who want a fast paced game to come out this fall. I can understand the saber enhancements to a point, but if this game is to be played by the masses and beat out games like Counter-strike it will have to be fast. In order for the game to be fast you must revisit jk2 before the patches. Battles were quick and decisive. People weren't always looking for ammo in games. Games were relatively high scoring. The game resembled an insanely popular ctf/tdm game known as Qauke 3. Raven followed Id software's lead and created a fast paced ctf/tdm game that anyone who had played Quake 3 or one of its clones could enjoy. But, if Raven were to enhance the saber so much that it would be the weapon of choice to many gamers mainly because they want that RPG element then Raven will have failed and scared away most of the potential gamers out there. Increasing saber abilities will only slow down the game mainly because you have to be standing 2 feet away from someone to kill them. People can run away very easily. This brings me to another point. There needs to be a gun that causes an incredible amount of damage to a person like the rail gun from Quake 3. The disruptor was nice, but you had to zoom in order to use it. This made it very difficult to use. Also a suggestion would be to increase the speed of the rockets from teh rocket launcher and give it much more ammo and possibly decrease the damage a little bit.

 

This is all i can think of for the moment. But Raven please listen to this post because a majority of the people who played the game do not post here because of the RPG people who do. This post will get flamed i'm sure, but there are only a few hundred, maybe a thousand members to this board. Thousands who do no post here will play the game. Remember this is a minority of the people who play the game!

[pds.silentsoul]

Here is a quote from one of my clanmates, who at the time was one of the best ctfers in the game(keep in mind this is within its first 2 months of existence).

 

He played until the patch which changed ammo requirements came out. And this is what he has to say: "basically jk2's problem was the push/pull factor. There was two maps where u couldnt fall off the edge, and the other 2 were a nightmare when everyone on the other team would just throw you to your death. Push/pull is way to easy to do. The only solution is to either make them weaker so it takes more than one push/pull to take someone off an edge, or simply make maps where the voids aren't such a factor. One idea that came to my mind was to each base for ctf. One would be the faster route, but there'd be a void for someone to push/pull the fc/offense into. The other way would be longer, but have no void to be thrown into. I felt that weapons weren't as important as powers, and a balance needs to be achieved in future jk games."

-pds.dynom|te

Right now he is an avid Quake 3 player mainly ctf.

[PetR-]

What soul has just posted is absolutely true. JK2 was a very good game for the first two months. 1.03 nerfed the game completely, and when 1.04 finally got to the community, it slowly died. Please focus more on gameplay, and the guns rather then graphics and sabers. I know you are near complection, but please take suggestions and implant them into the game from the competitors point of view.

 

Suggestions for guns.

 

Both the Bryar and Blaster were perfectly balanced and perfected, so if you keep the ammo consumption the way it was in JK2, everyone would be happy.

 

Crossbow is perfect

 

I know most people loved the repeated gun when it wasn’t nerfed, so keeping the settings like 1.02 would be perfect

 

The Fletchette should have one direction for its shot, and not have a different direction each time you shoot it. Those balls go differen’t places randomly each time, and if it would just go the direction you aim, it would be perfect.

 

Possibly change the rocket launcher to the concusion from DF2, if not, boost the speed, add more ammo, and maybe a little damage as soul clearly stated.

 

Most guns are perfect, and I’m just putting down the guns MAINLY used for the competitive point of view.

 

Force

I know you guys are implementing more force powers, but for the default ones, Most people would like to see every power back in. Please take into consideration of balancing the force powers, it is a key thing to competitive play.

 

Mostly what soul, coming from a very well known “clan” in the jk2 competative world, said everything that would be very nice to have.

 

I have very high hopes for jk3, hopefully it will be the next q3 of competition. Please consider the following Raven Software.

[twl.Sphinx]

The problem is not that they need to not focus on sabers and graphics, but moreso that if they decide to do so, they don't need to totally neglect the guns competitive side of the game. As long as that is not neglected in lieu of doing 100s of things for saber combat, it should be fine. That being said, here's my opinion:

 

1) Make pull cost more, or put a delay after its use, or make it have to be aimed with the crosshair, or all of the above.

I think pull is the primary thing that takes this game away from being a skilled competitive game. It's really annoying when you are trying to play, and 10 people constantly pull you to your death, doing nothing but standing there. Absorb often isn't even effective against that many "pull newbies".

 

2) Make people who rage take more damage than they do.

Constant raging by people makes things hella borish. When one person does it, it's bad enough...but if 3-4 are, forget about having a good time in a CTF game, unless everybody's raging. And that's just stupid. People need to be able to be "de-raged" in some way, and quicker. For example, make detonation packs or mines always kill them or blow away their rage.

 

All I can think of now.

-Sphinx

[Agen]

Actually, in the very beginning, i thought that jk sabers were bad after things got exploited, Dfa was the first thing, it was the main prob, it was fine until plyers jsut started spamming it and you could be killed when there saber is in the ground... In 1.04 i thoguht the fixed alot of bug and made the game pretty balanced comapred to 1.02 and i think i they hadn't rushed it out to meet LEC's requirments we would never have noticed. 1 patch is enoguh but 2 is a bit much since people had already adapted. twice. My advice to Raven is to finish the game to perfection before you release and not to get bossed around by LA to meet deadlines.

[makli]

And make Team Energize balanced, in JK2 two players using TE constantly can get unlimited force.

 

I dont agree with ppl who say that "JK2 is about the saber". Its combination of saber/guns/force powers which makes it unique.

 

I m sure that JA will be great game if u ll manage to balance guns/force powers and also if saber wont be useless toy like in JK2 1.04 (in TDM/CTF on servers with enabled weapons).

[pds.silentsoul]

I disagree with the saber issue. Somehow, you have to make it so a saber can compete with a gun if you are to use it. And personally i dont understand why you'd want to run around with a saber all game. It's like running around with a knife in Counter-strike or a guantlet in Quake 3. You have to physically touch someone to kill them, and you have to touch them many times. There is no real way to make the saber a ranged weapon. I used the saber in the beginning of the game's launch and about a week later i ditched it for a gun. Personally, and i believe i speak for the competative ctf/tdm part of the community, guns are faster killers and can kill from a distance. This increases the overall speed and intensity of the game and supplements to its overall joy in playing.

[oasisfan]

Perhaps the return of the concussion rifle is an idea ?

 

oasisfan

[DSbr-matt]

if anything, PLEASE fix force pull. this over used power was responsible for turning a very large amount of potential competitive jk2 players away from the game.

 

one of the great things about jk2 was the movement. you could get yourself going at insane speeds and do crazy high jumps.... only to be stopped DEAD in your tracks by the talentless power know as force pull.

 

how does one become skilled at a first person shooter? generally, you must master the the weapons (aim, prediction, etc) and the movement (dodging, jumps, etc). This is what separates the good players from the newbies. But what was the point of mastering movement in jk2? all that dodging and high speed strafe jumping only to be stopped by any random newbie who can stand still and mash the force_pull bind over and over. there is no reward for mastering the movement of jk2 and that is sad.

 

it is very frustrating for skilled gamers to be easily foiled over and over again by random talentless newbies. I'm sure that 99% of the players from competitive jk2 scenes (http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/forumdisplay.asp?forumid=18 and the euros - esl/clanbase) will agree with me on this one. It is a MUST FIX. Please consider this in the development of JK3.

[Agen]

I Totally agree fellow oasis lover with FF of course

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by oasisfan

Perhaps the return of the concussion rifle is an idea ?

 

oasisfan

 

definately. replace that ****ty 2ndary repeater lob shot with the good old conc.

[Agen]

Yep, Still the best gun in the series i think

[Necrosis]

I agree with silentsoul, PeTr and Sphinx. When reading up information on JA, you hear alot about the creators focusing on the saber combat. And honestly, from what I have read, it doesn't sound like muchb is being done to it. Everyone in jk2 tried to play the game as an RPG, when it was a FPS. If saber combat was going to be focused on, and that it was final, I would reccomend adding ALOT to the saber battles. I used to be quite the saberist in my day (sadly) and all the battles seemed to be the same. Saber battles need to be ALOT more.. free. Doing some crazy high flips in the air, landing near opponent exchanging swings. That's what the experience needs to be like. Someone spectating the game should be able to go like "OOOHHH sweet move!!" after a nice kill. In jk2, after a kill, it was like, wow, never seen that done before.There was what, like 3 combos in the game and 3 different kinds of swings? Everything was so repitive.

 

I also like the point soul made about the balance of the saber and guns. Pro gun players and pro saber players did 1v1's often in jk2, and not once did I see a saberist win. Sabers are what makes starwars unique , and in CTF games they had no use. So why not just go play Quake or another game that specialises in gunning? CTF was great because of the fast game play, but nobody ever really used the saber too much. the most use you could get out of it was to block shots and guard yourself when making a flag run.

 

 

-Saber battles need to be alot more "free" and fast paced, and not so repetive.

-Guns/Sabers need to be more balanced in CTF Games (all types of games for that matter)

-Force powers (eg pull) need to be fixed. Like what sphinx said about being a "pull newbie". I hated that in ctf.

[DSbrLogan]

Ok, as a member of the greatest team to ever grace competitive jk2 I will lay down some fact and opinions of mine.

 

 

the entire push/pull argument is boring. basically what happens with push and pull is that whether or not raven meant to do it, players with superior movement are actually handicapped becuase that same movement makes them a much easier target to get pushed or pulled. im sorry but the more time i spend playing the game and learning how to move fast within the games phsyics i should not be penalized because someone just bought the game and decided to press the push button pushing me back 15 feet while the next guy he pushes is also new to the game and is walking and doesnt even get pushed back in the slightest. in my opinion push and pull should be merely a continuation of pull from dark forces 2 : jedi knight. by saying this I mean that if someone presses the button to use force pull then it should pull my weapon assuming i do not have absorb on. as for push i am thinking that it should merely push back a weapon shot or if you are say within 3-5 feet of an enemy then it can push them off of their feet. it really pained my team to the point that at times this game was too frustrating to play because teams we should be beating 150 - 0 we were only beating 50 - 0 becuase our superior movement was hampered by the push/pull phsyics of the game.

 

 

second note, guns are good - all energy weapons arent. the flak gun oops i mean golan in my opinion was a bad choice. i understand that you wanted to mix up q3 and unreal weapons but sometimes it just doesnt work. there were really 2 worthwhile weapons in the game because of how quickly with good aim you could dispatch an opponent, with those being golan and heavy repeater. then you make them require more ammo thereby limiting the shots one can make without running for more ammo. im sure others will say the other weapons were good too and im not saying they werent i for one thought the stormtrooper rifle and bowcaster were really good incarnations from the original jedi knight. im not saying just copy the q3 weapon set but lets be honest for a fps the quake weapons are very tried and true. i would love to see the concussion rifle and rockets from jedi knight make a return, without taking a serious hit to speed or damage either. theres nothing more boring than being able to out RUN a rocket fired at me. let me know if anyone needs further explanation on this area.

 

 

lastly i do not know what happened with the butchering of the q3 engine (alas i kid i kid) but one thing i did not like was the relative unsmooth feeling jk2 offered. by saying this i mean that i could jump somewhere and stick to walls rather than sliding off of them. i didnt like making force jump the jump button also you have no clue how much mana i lost becuase no matter how long i paused in between jumps in my superfast strafejumping madness i would get charged for force jumping. its hard to explain but i could hit corners in jk2 and just warp into abyss instead of getting up the ledge.

 

 

i will undoubtably add more later

 

 

 

dsbr-logan

#darksaber on irc.enterthegame.com

Dark Saber - the uncontested gods of jk2

[pds.silentsoul]

I totally agree with matt. In the beginning of the game, the first 2 months, nobody knew the power of the push/pull and the game was great for it. Once all the force powers were changed around after the patches people started to rely too heavily on the team energizing, pushing, and pulling. CTF is an insane challenge with the over emphasis on these powers. Raven i hope to god your reading this. If you guys do not take into consideration teh ideas said in this post the game may make money but it wont have replayability. Nobody will play it in the long run. Look at jk2 online competitive play is totally and completely dead. The game's concepts are great, they make for excellent CTF/TDM play, however the push/pull and ammo/force changes you made were waht killed the game.

[PetR-]

All of the above.!!!

[Agen]

Ok, as a member of the greatest team to ever grace competitive jk2 .

Heh, maybe in jk but not quite in jk2 imo.

Though saeriously, The push pull crap was well out of order, thast's why i think ledge grab sohuld be implemented, to stop the crazy crap in CTF, and the pull backstab stuff

Raven should sort this out before the game is released.

Also, i think that the Conc should be put back in as it was seriously missed in jk2 (the G thing was a bad replacement imo)

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by DSbrLogan

basically what happens with push and pull is that whether or not raven meant to do it, players with superior movement are actually handicapped becuase that same movement makes them a much easier target to get pushed or pulled. im sorry but the more time i spend playing the game and learning how to move fast within the games phsyics i should not be penalized because someone just bought the game and decided to press the push button pushing me back 15 feet while the next guy he pushes is also new to the game and is walking and doesnt even get pushed back in the slightest.

[DSbrLogan]

quick followup

 

 

you cannot balance sabers and guns in a ctf environment. theres no point you shouldnt penalize regular competitive players that dont care about the saber unless in an enclosed space with an opponent, just because some saber fanatics believe that EVERYTHING SHOULD BE EQUAL OR YOU GUNNERS CAN GO PLAY QUAKE. you would not believe how many times i was told to go play quake in regular public servers because i didnt choose to play with a saber. HELLO I AM A GUNNER I CAN STILL ENJOY THE GAMEPLAY OFFERED BY SUPER MAGIC ABILITIES KNOWN AS FORCE POWERS. that whole argument about "if you like guns go play q3" is so utterly stupid considering i too like playing jedi knight.

 

and those that claim saber is too under powered compared to the guns, it SHOULD be. i shouldnt be killed just because someone decides that since he cannot stop me with skill that he will simply script up some saber moves and blindly hack away with it killing me in 1 or 2 hits. personally theres no point for a saber in weapons ctf save for deflecting small energy shots. i would rather see a beefier "stun gun" that carries the same damage as the gauntlet in q3. in jk2 it was ridiculously weak

 

 

what i would suggest is just a simple "tournament mod" like OSP for q3 or TTM for ut2k3. allowing saberists to enjoy their sabers only combat on their own servers with very easy to set up server configs. hopefully constructed by raven so that the entire community can accept it from the beginning instead of further splintering every competitive scene with 350902 different mods.

[DSbr-matt]

Originally posted by DSbrLogan

theres nothing more boring than being able to out RUN a rocket fired at me.

[PetR-]

Another thing raven should consider is add some life to 1v1. In quake 3, alot of people were into 1v1. It also had some of the biggest tournaments. Which advertises companys, which makes raven money .

 

Anyways, 1v1, JK had THEE BEST 1v1 IMO. The fast paced skill of Oasis FF blew any game away. With grade 2 drawings for gfx, the game still dominated every FPS game out there.

 

Consider the following:

 

Make fast paced 1v1 for JA

Make a variety of maps with different trick jumps etc. (Oaisis FF and BGJ did get a little boring after many years you know! ).

Add the concusion rifle.

Boost speed to go insanley fast, also with strafe jumping, it really could ad a unique INSANLEY fast style of gameplay.

Add a SURGE, not a BOOST, a surge would implement and very new unique style for CTF and 1v1 if added in JA.

 

What people would like to see for CTF was basically narrowed down in all of the above comments.

[Agen]

and those that claim saber is too under powered compared to the guns, it SHOULD be. i shouldnt be killed just because someone decides that since he cannot stop me with skill that he will simply script up some saber moves and blindly hack away with it killing me in 1 or 2 hits. personally theres no point for a saber in weapons ctf save for deflecting small energy shots. i would rather see a beefier "stun gun" that carries the same damage as the gauntlet in q3. in jk2 it was ridiculously weak

I mostly agree with this, but there was the same argument when jk2 was due to ocme out, they really want to balance everything out rather than making 2 dif camps liek in jk and jk2. Though, I don'ty believe the game should be like the movies but i think they should pay attention, it deflects energy and melts small bullets. A rocket SHOULD kill a jedi, just because he has a saber doesn't make him important, If it was balanced between how the sbaers and guns could contend with each other it would be pretty spiffy.

[DSbrLogan]

and yes agen_terminator whoever you are im sure you have never heard of the great feats of clan darksaber in the arts of jedi knight two. maybe you should visit our page and take a look at the record.

 

 

http://www.gorilla2.net/dsbr

 

 

maybe the fact that before dsbr retired its original steady lineup we were undefeated since the release of the game, with the only loss in the revival of dsbr coming when none of the starters were around for matchtime and even after being told to reschedule one of the pathetic bench players so eager to prove he was as good as anyone else on the team forced other benched players to play. the dsbr starting lineup is undefeated in well over 40 games. we have not always kept track of our wins.

 

 

but now that you mention it yes dsbr was also the unstoppable god of dark forces two : jedi knight.

 

 

and undoubtably if there are somewhat decent guns in jedi knight : jedi academy and we have any fun playing it we will be the unstoppable gods of that game also.

 

good day to you random newbie that felt the need to reply to that one minor bit of text in a rather huge post by myself.

 

 

dsbr-logan

#darksaber on irc.enterthegame.com

Dark Saber - Unstoppable gods of jk1/jk2 making pathetic newbies cry and throw tantrums since '98, making down syndrome followers stutter out incoherent ramblings since '02

[Necrosis]

nice post logan, some good points.

 

 

Hopefully Raven will listen, and not make the same mistakes.

 

I know most of the people that post here prefer the saber aspect of the game. But CTF is easily the part of jk2 that required the most skill. I think alot of the "saberists" here, are some that tried to play the game as an RPG (no offence, but it's just not how the game was ment to be played). So it's good to hear from the competive half of jk2.