Drunken_Sailor Posted May 30, 2003 Author Share Posted May 30, 2003 Ok, this took me a while, but finally I'm done ! As for Mort Hog's comments in this thread, I'll answer them later, when I have the time. First of all, to Mek : Someone or another once said, " If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him . " Anyways, I'm having trouble figuring out just what it is you consider " tremendously more logical than the Big Bang theory. " And at the risk of sounding patrionizing, it would be helpful if you could explain this without using faith - based assumptions of any kind .. strictly for the benefit of the non - believers that is. Facts and/or observations would be key, as well. Oh, and blind faith is not necessarily " believing what you want to be true. " It is the inability to even remotely consider other options. One thing about odds, no matter how astromical the odds are .. There are enough stars, and galaxies, and therefore planets, that if it is possible no matter how improbable. It has happened, and with the amount of stuff in the universe, it happened more than once. Do the math, and you will clearly see this. I am not so sure the big bang is the answer, but after a little bit more research, I am just as sure there is no God, as you are that there is a God. No amount of evidence obtained in this new millennium, will most likely prove it one way or the other. I'm not gonna get into theology or stuff like that. I just wanted to make a few observations on your example of the HORSE, OK? Horses, like other life - forms, didn't simply pop into existence as we see them today. While the morphology of the Horse is an amazing adaptation in itself, there is a distant lineage there. A Horse is a Vertebrate, one of the subclasses of many vertebrates, including us. There is a certain degree of commonly SHARED DNA among all vertebrates. Think about these SHARED characteristics for a moment : --- Horses have femurs and legs, shoulders and ribs, livers and lungs, brains and hearts and of course a central nervous system running through the spine. All vertebrates have at least some of these things in common -- even fish. --- Many other animals have these characteristics too, so the Horse is not unique in possessing them. While I realize Evolution is sometimes regarded in a bad way by religeous folks, it is nonetheless true that DNA is a shared item among all living creatures. And there are startling coincidences that suggest a long line of ancestral commonalities. For instance : --- Did you know the salt content of human blood is almost exactly the same as sea water? --- The front flippers of Dolphins (phylum Cetacea) have EXACTLY the same number of bones as the human hand including concealed fingers? There is amazing evidence to suggest we all fell off the same tree - of - life millions of years ago. Scientists like Albert Schweitzer felt a sense of oneness with all living critters. Some believe ALL animals are related somehow. It is the reason why many people are Vegetarians. Some would say that in itself is a religion of sorts -- the conviction that all creatures, great and small, are distant cousins and we should not be eating our "family" for lunch !!! Incidentally, Horses are vegetarians too. =) Fascinating. *Also, many people, (especially christians ), believe man was created as vegetarian. Why? It wasn't 'till the fall of man that an animal "sacrifice", ( biblical use for the event), took place. And then sometime after that man began to consume meats. ( Sometimes I wish they didn't. ) Some of them also believe the animal specis are unique of themselves. Horse, dog, birds, though there may be different types of each. They don't see in the fossil record progression of change to support " evolution. " Some of them claimed that there are similarities like I mentioned, but that doesn't indicate we're related to the animal kingdom. * In answer to that, I totally agree that humans are natural - born vegetarians. Friends think I'm kidding. I tell 'em all you gotta do is go to a mirror, open your mouth and LOOK at your teeth. They are small, with bigger flat molars for grinding seeds, nuts and grains. If we were meant to be meat - eaters we would have fangs like dogs, wolves, tigers, etc. Re the similarities among animals --- there is a fossil record of Horse ancestory suggesting that way back when they were much smaller than now. But no matter, the idea I was suggesting is the COMMON DNA that all animals share --- not just within species, but across species as well. I wonder WHY dolphins have 14 finger bones in their front flippers that look like a human hand, UNLESS somewhere in the dim dark distant past before the split between aquatic species and land animals, there existed some shared lineage. Studies show animals are DNA related in various ways strongly suggesting a shared "origin" once - up - a - time. If you want to believe that origin came from god, that's ok with me. Here's a quote from another forum : If I beleived in God, I would think that God used evolution to create the various species. I've also thought that since I've never seen proof of evolution, that all evolutionists have ever proven is that they can identify bones that look similar and then put them into groups. That is a handy skill not to be looked down upon, but it doesn't substitute for actual evidence of one animal form changing into another. Also, if there was a God that created all life (regardless of the method) then I've always thought it reasonable that most animals were very similar to us -- not only in appearance but also with regards to DNA. In fact, the more similar visually, the more similar with regard to DNA, I'd expect. To me the visual and DNA similarities are evidence that the same God who made that, made the other animals, and he made humans also. In short, why reinvent the wheel (or DNA in this case)? If similar DNA gets the job done, then it only seems reasonable that an omniscient God would know that and then use similar DNA to get the job done. So the example that I gave about the dolphin flipper is exactly the kind of thing that I expect to find ( yes, I know it is also the sort of evidence one would expect from evolution ) . As for the mathematical odds, each of the different choices seem about even to me. It's other evidence that has persuaded me. Taking that in to " consideration " , the most important part of your post is the context of your horse DNA evolution presentation as DNA, that has been the area of study for evolutionists for over 20 years. It has been said that there are three kinds of lies : white lies, baldface lies and statistics. There are no reliable statistical data that can express the many possible realities that involve the evolutionary process of DNA ( or mDNA or RNA etc ). Nor are there any realistic models upon which just such a statistical measure can be made. It IS entirely possible for someone to take empirical numbers regarding a system ( such as DNA mutation ) and put it through any statistical test, and come up with probabilities. But the likelyhood of it truly representing the reality of a biosystem is perhaps close that 1 in 10*30,000 you quoted. For example : If one placed all the parts of a car engine on one's yard, and then figured out all the possible ways the engine parts could be put together, one may come up with a HUGE number representing the unlikelihood of an engine ever being put together. BUT, if you have a mechanic stop by to put the engine together, and he does it, then the odds are 100% that it could be done. Now metaphorically speaking, regarding DNA and making a horse for example, one can take one's God, or environmental influences, or whatever one chooses to believe (including combinations), and substitute it for the mechanic. Then the result could be 100% guaranteed to have the proper DNA configuration to "create" a horse. To put the response in layman's terms, that statistic is, statistically speaking, a bunch of hooey! Please note that I'm not done yet, I'm coming back later with more info on this, stay tuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al-back from the BigWhoop Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by Meksilon I mean it was indisputibly proven that humans did not evolve from apes and the theory was updated to say that humans and apes share a comman ancestor. diferently from the "religion's unquestionable truths", theories CAN and SHOULD be updated . come on, i dont need to tell you that, you are smarter than this... aren't you? Originally posted by Drunken_Sailor Oh, and blind faith is not necessarily " believing what you want to be true. " It is the inability to even remotely consider other options. DS has a point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yufster Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 DS, I read your entire, huge post, and I'm absolutely fascinated. What you have said obviously took knowledge and research, and I believe near every word of it. But while you research and strengthen and reinforce your arguments, Mek will always reply with crap like, "It's a miracle." or "It's the will of god." or maybe some of his delightfully nonsensical 'religious science'... "It's been proven that humans did not evolve from apes!" or maybe "It's been proven that the red seas parted!". It's actually a fact that you're able to buy science magazines dedicated to christians like him. They're hilarious, they have the most stupid stories in them. On another note, a week ago my Religion Teacher was telling us a 'heart warming, tear inducing' story about some murderer who was jealous of his ex girlfriend so he killed her, her boyfriend and slashed his other friends eyes. He was put on death row and then he wrote this sad story about how he turned to god and became a priest and wanted to be good. My point to my teacher was, how are we expected to take this as a moral lesson? This murderer is a GOOD man now! You can trust him with your kids, even! All we were told is that he killed two people and then became 'nice'. I have no sympathy for him. Maybe I would if I knew him. I can't be expected to have sympathy for a character that is as good as fictional to me. You see, christians (well, some of them, like Mek) like to twist stories to their own benefit, because really their science doesn't hold any water. Mek, how can you say that the Big Bang theory is less logical than some freaking god, an unexplained and mysterious force apparently, created earth from nothing, with nothing, in a few days? It's one of religions weakest points, I'd stop stressing it if I were you. EDIT: Hahaha! The other thread about Mek got closed... Originally posted by The Feral Chicken There are multiple topics about this, and this one isn't even civil ROTFLMFAO!!! Of course it's not... I was talking about Mek!!! LOLOLOL. Sorry nonetheless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicardoLuigi... Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Carl I've asked you very nicely not to call me names. all posted by mek you are so messed up Are loving or kind or nice person? No. you are a self-rigtious fool "you can pull your head out of your arse". retarted attention seeking moron You only proving how utterly pathertic your conversational skills really are HE EVEN ADMITS I have constructivly insulted you and yet he's calling other people Hypercritical. (which, btw, is spelled hypocritical) i usually try to avoid threads like these, but i'll join anyways. mek- i don't see why you can't just accept what the other people think, and i know people aren't accepting your beliefs either, but i don't see what the big deal is. i personally think that man did evolve from apes, and not that god just said "i'll make this planet" some day. and here's something to help disprove god- why would he wait for us? "what?" yeah, why would he wait for us? he makes the planet billions of years ago, then he sees the one-celled organisms, then multicelled, ten little animals, he's still sitting there twiddling his thumbs, waiting for something, then he sees dinosaurs, then he finally starts seeing mammals, then we come. why all of a sudden does he just say "oh, goodee, this is my chance," and decide to give us all souls and help us, but not anything before us? come on, please. plus, how could he make this planet from nothing, and how come he just made it so we could live (as far as we can tell). there are no other planets with life forms on them, so why us? what makes us so god damn special that he just says "oh, hey, humans. i'll take care of these guys." gimme a break. the big bang happened, we did evolve, there's no other explanation. i've read articles where people say "empty your garage of everything and see if a car evolves from the cement by waiting twenty years". i've seen them say "if there was only one person that evolved, how could they continue the human race? they need the other gender to evolve!" simple answer(s): another evolved, there was a genetic mutation where it was a female and she had both chromosomes, allowing her to give birth, or (and this is nasty), beastiality. there's very simple answers to disprove everything in that religion. and just because you believe what you want to doesn't mean it's blind faith, okay? blind faith is non-existent. when you believe what you want to, that's creating your own little belief system. just because you are (let's say jewish), wouldn't mean you'd have to believe everything written in the torah. you don't have to believe everything they say to make it actual 'faith' vs. 'blind faith'. rules can be bent, you can choose to believe what you want to from any religion you want to. can't we all just get along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yufster Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 NO!!! LOL seriously, the annoying thing about people like Mek is that their 'proof' of gods existence is stupid stuff like, "How else did the world get here?" and crap, and then they come out with stuff like, "Well can you explain how the world got here?". I don't usually mind but he scoffs so utterly at other people. I've immensely disliked him since his Gay Basher comments. Das, you have spoken, now you may never escape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken_Sailor Posted May 31, 2003 Author Share Posted May 31, 2003 Again, I'll start with Mek, first of all : Originally posted by Branik Try physics instead of theology. Makes better sense. This was an excellent reply ! Your entire original post was nothing but religious rhetoric. Now, as far as the odds you're quoting concerning the probability of DNA doing whatever ... you've got to realize that for a mutation to occur, it doesn't have to occur in EVERY DNA molecule in EVERY cell. It just takes one. And when you consider the number of cells in something as small as a rat, for instance ... well, I don't wanna try to do that math. It makes 1 in 10^80 look like pretty good odds. Not to mention the fact that whoever did the calculations was working with nothing but numbers. Nothing else was taken into consideration. It appears that you don't really quite understand the evolutionary process, and that you are attempting to logically order a completely random phenomenon. Originally posted by Meksilon What I don't beleive is that we all came fromt he same primodial soup where life could not have begun to begin with. Truthfully, I would go much further back than that. The stuff this planet is made of, including the molecules of LIFE, were forged in the fusion cycles of STARS long ago. In a very real sense, the stars themselves were our parents. We are made of "star stuff." When looking up at the stars, I see our ancient family, the givers of life, and it makes me feel a oneness with the Universe, far greater than any earthbound religion could ever achieve. Originally posted by Mort-Hog This can be seen in the characteristics of humans across the globe, for you will see that humans are not all the same. There is a great deal of variation. Indeed, that's true. BUT, we can all reproduce with each other can't we? Hmmmm? Does that not give all humans a sort of common denominator? Genetic compatibility implies a common DNA, does it not? I am saying that while the tree -of- life has many branches, it may very well have common roots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yufster Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 In a very real sense, the stars themselves were our parents. We are made of "star stuff." Oh that's funny you should mention that. Because I read something in the Science Section of the sunday times about traces of stardust in our bodies or something like that. So it's probably true, at least to a degree, that we came from the stars. I think that's so romantic. Look out of your window and see those wonderful stars shining and twinkling in the distance... they're the real gods the mother of all life... and to think it all began from one Crystal... ...Um, so maybe I'm a bit off track with the whole RPG thing going, but it's still sooo romantic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 You don't know that the horse you're all beating is dead already. Seriously, I've been in 4 threads on this, each at least 7 pages long. Most of the good stuff is in the above thread, though. Mek, please read the link I've given you before making a fool out of yourself. Every point you're going to present has most likely already been blown to bits in there. And don't call homosexuals evil, or tell them they're going to hell. Only God knows that - you are not in a position to judge other people like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meksilon Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 C'jais Evolution is a fact. Creationism (Intelligent design) isn't.I needen't even mention that even the most intelligent evolutionests admit that evolution is only a theory and that they accept it because there's nothing else they want to beleive in. Or there is nothing "better" to beleive in. That is fact. Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Originally posted by Meksilon C'jaisI needen't even mention that even the most intelligent evolutionests admit that evolution is only a theory and that they accept it because there's nothing else they want to beleive in. Or there is nothing "better" to beleive in. That is fact. Daniel Read further. Do I have to repeat myself for the umteenth time that a theory can be a fact as well as a theory? No? Thought not. Most creationists don't understand the word "Theory" very well. Read more of the thread before you start making yourself look like a fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yufster Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Mek, darling, there you are! Other thread got closed but I had to pick you up on some of this stuff: That's your warped perception. You start off by going to hell anyway beleive and you will be saved. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever seen god? For real? As in talking face to face with him? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No one can see God's face and live. Nice, real nice. That doesn't really answer my question. Why can't they? And why haven't you, if you love him so much? And so then you haven't seen his face, ever. Ever seen his feet, hands, ANYthing? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "What about people who live in jungles and never learned about god?" because your response appears to have been SCREWED UP WHILE YOU WERE SENDING IT. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well then I'll say it again: John 14:6: Jesus said to him "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Is that simple enough for you to understand? quote: No, I don't talk Dogma. And it's not a translation option on Altavista Babelfish either. Explain in ENGLISH, please. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the only thing that spurrs me to say a lot of stuff is because I hate narrow minded people like Mek that think they believe these things because of free will, but in actual fact they believe them because they're being led like dogs by some power hungry, corrupted church. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Two things I find interesting are 1. Satan is power hungry and 2. the "church" (or more realistically CULT) of greed and power is Scientology NOT Christianity. No, no. What does he have? Not that I believe in him. But god demands your full love. There was even a part of the bible where God sent some dude to kill his son or something. Yeah sacrifice his son to him or something like that. Now this guy had never met God apparently, it was just a 'message' from him. He would kill his own son for some guy he'd never met. Whether god let him carry this out or not, it's still an evil thought to put into somebodies head, and to see if people are willing to kill for you is, essentially, evil. So how is god not power hungry? And how is scientology power hungry? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't believe in god at all, but I'm completely open minded to anything. Except god. And scientology. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hadn't read that you'd said scientology when I wrote that above bit (I'm reading on the fly)... but then you are closed minded the very thing you dislike about me! Quite apart from the fact I was only joking, I live outside the box. I am open minded to everything except those things that I find ridiculous. I don't believe in God, I don't believe in Scientology. I don't believe a lot of things. But I'm still open minded to them, and open minded to question my own beliefs. And as for the comment on somebody smarter, I think you just don't like me because I keep destroying your... weak, unbased points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicardoLuigi... Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 and as for that 'john 14:6' section of the bible or whichever one it was (never read the bible, don't plan to), how do you know the bible was written from a trustworthy person? the only proof you have of there being a god is that you read the bible, which i wouldn't even call proof at all, because how do you know whether some loony just wrote it some day and said "oh, look, my insights to the heavens have foreseen a higher being called god" or whatever. for all you know, your whole entire religion could be based off of an alcoholic's ideas, which i find pretty damn sad. what makes you think there is a god anyway? besides the fact that you are brought up that way, why believe? there's no proof anywhere for anything, really, not even most religions that believe in a god, so what makes you feel so strongly about it? and why can nobody see god's face and live? because you only see it as you die? give me a break. well, how about telling me you see him when you die, when somebody that's dead actually tells you. or better yet, how about when you die in 70 years or whatever, why don't you come back here and tell us all? that's exactly how ridiculous i think that is. these religion topics i find ridiculous. oh, yeah, on that same topic when i said that evolve the ferrari from the cement whatever (which i picked up at christian camp last year (forced to go) ). it stated that (this is the most hilarious thing ever, this cracked me up) "well, there's proof that there's a god. when there's a painting, there's a painter. when there's a book, there's a writer. well, the universe exists, so there must be a creator." and this is the best part: "even a child can understand that". i just laughed and laughed and laughed and laughed. these people are so completely oblivious to everything going on around them. it's like they're in a little dream world of their own, it is the funniest **** ever. so, they're basically saying (i'm gonna use substitution here) "there is a universe so there must be a creator. the creator being god" now, this is actually what's true, "there's a universe, so there must be a creator. the creator being a carbon and an oxygen atom" or whatever those two were that collided and made the big bang. but you have to agree, that pamphlet is hilarious. they're completely ignorant as to what they're actually saying, and it sounds so funny. oh- and do you want to know the name of the pamphlet? "evolution: evidence for and against". hah! yeah, right. that's excatly what these kinds of people do. they bend and twist their stories to make it say what they want it to. and btw- this lovely little pamphlet kept me, my mom, and my dad, sitting at the kitchen table for 6 hours talking about it and debating it out. we were up til one in the morning, yeah. i then ripped it in half and took a match to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yufster Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 LOL That's stupid! Here's the way I see it. There's a flower, so there has to be EITHER a Gardener, a Bird (dropping the seed by accident), a Gust of Wind, a seed stuck on somebodies shoe... The possibilities for how that flower got there are numerous. And although we'll never know for definite, we can safely say that an invisible man did NOT plant it and then command it to obey him. You have a really good point, Das. There is no proof or sign other than the bible. And I read somewhere that there was evidence of the religious dudes that wrote the bible being on a primitive version of crack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natty Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Originally posted by C'jais And don't call homosexuals evil, or tell them they're going to hell. Only God knows that - you are not in a position to judge other people like that. Mek said once that he's spoken to God, so obviously I guess God told him to call homosexuals evil. Mek also said something along the lines that God told him to spread the word around. I guess that's what he's doing, he doesn't have to do it in such a nasty and negative way. If anything, Mek belongs in a straight jacket. I lost faith in God ages ago, he never answered my prayers when I needed someone, hence why I think religion sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Originally posted by Das Mole but you have to agree, that pamphlet is hilarious. they're completely ignorant as to what they're actually saying, and it sounds so funny. oh- and do you want to know the name of the pamphlet? Don't know if this is the one, but the Chick tracts are quite hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicardoLuigi... Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 people that actually think they are talking directly to god (not praying, that's just fine with me, or asking for guidance, that's okay) but actually thinking that you have sat down, drank some coffee and talked with god (and that's and exaggeration, now nobody can pounce on me for saying that), you either a) need a life, b) have hallucinations and should seek professional help immediately, or c) have an extremely vivid imagination. and i cant stand those missionary people that just come to your door, give you a piece of paper and say "here's the daily word of god for you" and try to turn you to christianity. i've never read those papers, but i'm sure they have things like "gospel song of the day" "prayer of the day" or "bible section of the day" and on the bottom it says something like "edited by god himself" or something just as silly, i'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshi Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Originally posted by Das Mole people that actually think they are talking directly to god (not praying, that's just fine with me, or asking for guidance, that's okay) but actually thinking that you have sat down, drank some coffee and talked with god (and that's and exaggeration, now nobody can pounce on me for saying that), you either a) need a life, b) have hallucinations and should seek professional help immediately, or c) have an extremely vivid imagination. Or have a lot of faith. Mek has just about as much right to say he talks to God as I do. And Mek, you still haven't answered my question, and this time, you have no reason not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mort-Hog Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Meksilon C'jaisI needen't even mention that even the most intelligent evolutionests admit that evolution is only a theory and that they accept it because there's nothing else they want to beleive in. Or there is nothing "better" to beleive in. That is fact. Daniel I personally don't find all the 'Mek SUCKS!!!!!11111' posts particularly interesting, but as I don't visit the forums much I won't try to stick up for Mek. I've seen his anti-homosexual views, and as he is a devout christian this is perfectly understandable. I've also seen the homophobophobic responses to that resulting in boring threads. :-) but anyway.... ...of course it's a theory. The theory of relativity is a theory, and yet it is used in every day life all the time (despite being proven slightly wrong by quantum physicists). You cannot prove a theory unless you can prove that you cannot disprove it, and disproving a theory is very simple. Proving that you cannot disprove it is almost impossible, as you will never know what will be discovered tomorrow. However, a theory can be seen as substational if it meets current observations. That is what science is, the explanation of observation. When civilisation thought that everything in the world was made up of four elements, Earth, Fire, Water and Air, this met all observations of the time as everything that was seen then could be explained by different compounds of those four elements, wood for instance was clearly made from earth and fire. It was said that "Air moves us, Fire transform us, Water shapes us, Earth heals us". ...and, coming back from the wild tangent of which I spun off at, the theory of evolution meets all of the observations of Darwin. and all of your observations too, if you were thinking that your observations are more valid than his. Unless of course you have a clear observation (and faith is not observation) that clearly disproves the theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshi Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 I agree with Mort Hog, mere hundreds of years ago, people thought the world was flat. This was not proven, but it was not disproven. Merely fifty or so years ago, people did not disprove the idea that the atom could not be split, and then they split it. There is no rock hard evidence of evolution as is the same with all ideas (including god), so we can never be so sure. You cannot ridicule Mek for believing in something other than evolution, it may make more sense to you, but sometimes, not to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mort-Hog Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 The point I was making, though, was that evolution explains all current observations. Creationism doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yufster Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Creationism explains one thing, to my knowledge, very well. It explains how the god damn Mek was born. Could it be possible that our strong, surviving ancestors branched off to form a uniquely moronic chain of homosapiens? More likely God came home a little bit drunk, missed the urinal and pee'd Mek down the wall of existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshi Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Mort-Hog (and faith is not observation) No, faith is faith, observation is observation, they are two different things. That doesn't mean that he can't use faith as a reason to why he doesn't belive in evolution. Evolution is simply a theory. It is backed up by many pieces of evidence just as God is. To some, God is real, He is the anser to most of lifes questions, and, lest we all be so lucky, most of lifes questions shouldn't really come past anything like 'if I work hard, will I get what I deserve?' any athiest will tell you that the answer to that is most probably yes. Any religeous person will tell you the that the answer is definately yes. The world is interpreted in different ways, but all come to the common end. Let Mek believe what he wants to believe, if he ends up hating homosexuals all his life, then so beit. I myself have never found myself going round beating up everyone who didn't like me simply because I was black ( he's black?). Why, because as long as they dont physically or mentally hurt me, then I see no reason why they can't have they beliefes (of course, if they hit me, I hit back twice as hard, if they make fun, call me names, I make them feel like dirt, if they prevent me from leading my life like any other average person, God help them). Mek, tell me. Do you go out and bash homosexuals? Do you make fun of them for being gay? Do you beat them up for who they are? I'm pretty sure the answer here will be 'no' because he has said countless times before that he does not hate them, he simply doesn't accept them. Well, if he doesn't want to accept them, then so beit, it's not going to make much of a difference. Oh, and finally Mek, forget the first question I asked (the chicken and the egg one). I had places picked out for that one to go to, but now, that would just be hypocrytical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyTordesLegend Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Wow!!! What fascinating reading. I didn't realise there was so much depth on this forum!! I hope everyone doesn't mind me resurrecting this post so I can add my views. Firstly I have no idea how the universe started. It's my belief that the way we all came to be, is probably just to difficult for the human mind to comprehend. Perhaps there was no beginning and will never be an end, just a constant circle of creation and destruction. Why does there have to be a beginning? For something to begin, surely there has to be something there to create it, but what created the creator? When does the reflection end when you hold a mirror in front of a mirror? Does it never end? Regards religion, and hopefully without offending anyone, I cannot see how any religion can justify itself. There are too many religions all over the world....and they can't ALL be true. Perhaps there are some areas of religion that are true. Maybe Jesus Christ DID exist, and perform many of the fabulous deads that the bible tells us. But with this comes the likelyhood of the story being changed, and hyped up through the years. Maybe Jesus was an ordinary man, a generous and caring man who did many good things. But perhaps he didn't turn water into wine and heal the sick purely by faith. Maybe Jesus simply watered down some particularly strong wine he had lying out back, and made many sick people live longer by making them feel better about themselves and giving them a will to fight against their afflictions. Maybe throughout the years the chinese whisper effect changed the story by ridiculous proportions. I personally think it's crazy to have blind faith in something you have never seen with your own eyes, and have absolutely no proof of. What is the difference between Cristianity, Islam, and a group of 50 people who believe that Aliens are coming down to save them. Probably very little. In each case you have a lot of people who are believing a very far fetched story because they've been 'sold' on the benefits of believing it to be true. Regards Homosexuality, I have no problem with it at all. How someone gets their sexual kicks is their business as long as it doesn't harm anyone. I don't practice it myself, but who's to say that some time in the future I wouldn't. I've never fancied another man before, but who's to say I'm not capable of doing that. I certainly wouldn't be ashamed of it, should I one day find myself in a relationship with another man. What I do know is that I don't find men attractive currently, but then again I didn't like cheese sandwiches until a few months ago!!! . What I am against is depravity. People having sex in filthy toilets, performing acts in front of children, and that sort of thing. Its a fact its in a blokes nature to have more of an ability to be depraved than women, hence why it always seems to be gay men who are hanging around toilets and the like. I would find it just as disgusting to see a man and woman writhing around next to a filthy toilet bowl, as I would to see two blokes or two women. Anyway peace and good wishes to you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicardoLuigi... Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 i don't even want to get on this topic again. but i'm gonna:rolleyes: i think the whole idea that god created the universe and everything, people, all that, is absolutely ridiculous, you cannot make something from nothing, it is impossible. i think it's especially impossible if you exist outside of reality and everything and you are not a physical being. that's like saying that when i'm dead, i'm going to somehow make a cheeseburger with absolutely nothing, not even the raw materials, such as a cow, and some wheat. that's exactly how silly i find it to be, i also think that you do not see god or jesus when you die (mainly because i don't believe they exist). i think that we did evolve from smaller creatures (not smaller in importance, smaller in size) such as uni-cellular organisms, then it was multi-cellular, blah blah blah. plus, i think that people that have a lot of faith, such as our now-banned mek, are completely oblivious to stuff going on around them (such as not being able to get a grip on reality) and that they will believe only what they want to believe and will not let anything change it, they're stubborn. this may not be true for all that have a lot of faith, but mek did, and if he represented people that are very strong believers, that'sthe general belief i would have about them. anyway, that's all i'm gonna post, i posted something like this in a different topic, where you can read a (somewhat) brief review of my beliefs on this issue. i don't know where it is, but it's somewhere around here. if you want to find it, you'll need a pitchfork, a shovel, and other various gardening and/or farming tools. simply because i was black really? i would never have guessed. and i'm not being sarcastic, in case i came off that way. well, you learn something new every day i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadmeat_X Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Damn you Das Mole! Now I got to read through all these long posts again... *realises he never reads long posts anyway* Never mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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