ragou Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 I was originally going to put this off until the AG site was up and the *real* forums are up again, but I couldn't wait any longer. On my review page, there now is a review of Runaway. Go to http://www.lysator.liu.se/~ragnar/Reviews/ or go to the review directly http://www.lysator.liu.se/~ragnar/Reviews/Runaway_review.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakane Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Hmmm... I'm now at chapter 4. Although I haven't finished it and can't give my rating yet, but I know definitely that it scores higher than 6/10. At least 8/10 for me if it's not more. For me, I enjoy this more than Syberia. Don' get me wrong, Syberia is a very wonderful game, but just a little bit too overhyped, IMHO. I like all the details they put in the game, especially the dialogues. The main character's comment/reaction to a specific object changes according with the situation/timing, what he has or hasn't done, which many other adventure games usually don't wanna bother. I also like the double click to bypass animation, just like the old LucasArts' adv game. When you're stuck and frustated, this double-clicking-feature helps. I think this should be a standard in point-and-click computer adv games. So far my experiance has been positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpfinsa Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 I'm curious, how long does it take to finish the game? --BPF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefoot Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Not as long as TLJ... I'm not a very fast adventure gamer, but the first two chapers were done in about 3 to 4 hours... luckily the 3rd and 4th were each about 3 to 4 hours too... 5th was less then an hour I think and the sixth is around 3 to 4 too... so maybe around 15 hours full play time (first time around)... ps. mayor estimation... I don't keep a watch near me while gaming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragou Posted August 12, 2003 Author Share Posted August 12, 2003 Originally posted by Wakane Hmmm... I'm now at chapter 4. Although I haven't finished it and can't give my rating yet, but I know definitely that it scores higher than 6/10. At least 8/10 for me if it's not more. First I want to point out that 6/10 is not a bad score. My scoring goes from 0 = worse than torture to 5 = Ok to 10 = The best game that ever will be made. So far I don't have any game that I've played that is worth a 10. 6 is equal to what BS2 got, so all in all, not a bad grade. For me, I enjoy this more than Syberia. Don' get me wrong, Syberia is a very wonderful game, but just a little bit too overhyped, IMHO. I like all the details they put in the game, especially the dialogues. The main character's comment/reaction to a specific object changes according with the situation/timing, what he has or hasn't done, which many other adventure games usually don't wanna bother. I also like the double click to bypass animation, just like the old LucasArts' adv game. When you're stuck and frustated, this double-clicking-feature helps. I think this should be a standard in point-and-click computer adv games. So far my experiance has been positive. Yes, the dialogue is slightly better made than in Syberia. But on the whole I felt there was nothing very much original with the story and the way it was presented. It felt like a reiteration of some other games we have played. But not a bad game. In (for example) Syberia I felt the (rather strange) world got my attention in a way that Runaway never did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaf Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 I think it's a fair review, though I'd give it a bit higher score myself (7/10) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleto4_ryan Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 lucky ones, you HAVE the game.... --------------------------------------- 6/10 .................so bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragou Posted August 14, 2003 Author Share Posted August 14, 2003 Originally posted by jaf I think it's a fair review, though I'd give it a bit higher score myself (7/10) If I had had halves I probably would have given it 6.5/10 :^) Originally posted by pleto4_ryan 6/10 .................so bad? 6/10 isn't bad as I explained above. All games I give 5 or better are *good* games. All below that isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 For me, it's also worth more than a 6 until now:) : I finished Syberia last weekend (for the first time) and I saw you gave that one an 8. (After accidentally discovering AdventureGamers some time ago (just before the crash ), I started replaying the old LEC adventures, and I enjoyed it so much that I started buying others like TLJ, Grim, Syberia, Runaway...) Syberia was a bit of a disappointment ...(I had heard a lot of good stuff about it before buying it). Especially in the beginning (Valadilene) I had to push myself to continue playing. The story told in the cutscenes was really nice, but I +/- never had the feeling to be in it or to contribute to it. And there was only one moment of suspense, and even that was a bit predictable (Komkolzgrad). And I must admit I prefer inventory-based puzzles over something 'find the key for the machine and push the right buttons'. ( I really did love the music and the graphics, and because of that the game's general atmosphere and style, but it seemed more a prologue than an entire game to me. Now I'll have to buy the sequel too ) In Runaway, I've reached the 4th chapter. First 2 chapters were not that special, but the 3d was great (great characters, location, puzzles...) I also like the 3D cutscenes (more opportunities for different camera angles), only their image quality is not that good (but I expected worse, after reading some comments on other forums). And I wish they had this double-clicking thing to bypass certain animations in all adventure games (especially Syberia ). Main drawback (for me) is the fact that it's really hard to spot certain objects (I think I missed something in every chapter). Maybe this is due to the high resolution (1024*768)... And the game could use some more background music. But I think they're both good games. My scores would be a 7 for Syberia and 8 for Runaway (The last one can still change, though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleto4_ryan Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Originally posted by ragou 6/10 isn't bad as I explained above. All games I give 5 or better are *good* games. All below that isn't. yes....but it's a six..... whatever way you look at it ---------------------------------------- I don't have any game that I've played that is worth a 10. AAAAAAAAAA.........SACRILEGE... Grim deserves a 10+().....well actually just a 10.....a 10+ game has never been made yet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinnyW Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 I couldn't have put it better pleto, Grim deserves a ten and more! But rags hasn't played Grim. Come on, you just have to! Say Bird (Crow TLJ joke), what did you think of Grim? Anyway, nice review, I will be getting the game at some point. If it took so long to reach other countries, I think it's safe to assume/hope it'll get here at around 2005 but I might order it online sometime. Hmm, I feel like a discussion on adevnture game theory... Tommorow maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Originally posted by GinnyW Say Bird (Crow TLJ joke), what did you think of Grim? Haven't played it yet . I bought the LEC entertainment pack together with TLJ, first played S & M , Full Throttle, then TLJ. Meanwhile, I found Syberia on ebay and then I bought Runaway. I still haven't found the time to play Grim (same goes for the dig) , and every time I buy another adventure I postpone it.. My expectations are really high, and I want to play it in the knowledge that I have plenty of time (no other games that are waiting). I did try the demo once, and I really liked the style of it+a lot of people say it's the best PC game (not just adventure) ever. Then again, demos of adventure games are quite meaningless, I think, 'cause you miss the entire story. But I promise I'll play Grim after Runaway (btw : I liked Crow in TLJ a lot; much better than Cedric the owl in KQ5) (btw2: today I was in a shop where you got a Runaway tshirt if you bought the game. Anyone seen one of those?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinnyW Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Oh I see. Well, if you liked the demo, you're in for a treat, since the demo is just a taste of the amazingness in Grim. It's very long (took me half a year I think, because I was a bit new to AG's and the puzzles were hard for me ). It certainly took me longer than TLJ. Yeah I loved crow, he's so funny! He would be a great protagonist, but makes an even better side kick IMO. Make usre you have lots of time to be immersed in the wonderful world of Grim.. ahh.. And if you really get stuck (like happened to me sometimes) ask for hints, don't use a walkthrough, I made that mistake, grrr.. If you want, I'd be glad to provide very vague hints just to give you a direction . Pay close attention to the game and the dialogs though, there are many hints there, so pay a lot of attention Btw, in the LEC entertainment pack, did Grim Fandango come in a box, a jewel case, cardboard cover thingy (that's how I got it, instead of a jewel case just a carton "pocket" thing, which came inside a box), or how? I'm wondering cause I want to get it probably, for FT and the dig etc, and to have the original GF box (mine was in hebrew cause I bought it here in israel ). Is it the normal version or a special edition or something? Are these questions useless if you haven't opened it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragou Posted August 15, 2003 Author Share Posted August 15, 2003 Originally posted by pleto4_ryan yes....but it's a six..... whatever way you look at it ---------------------------------------- AAAAAAAAAA.........SACRILEGE... Grim deserves a 10+().....well actually just a 10.....a 10+ game has never been made yet.... Yes, but fortunately, my rate-system doesn't suffer from inflation, that's why I don't do such things. Originally posted by GinnyW I couldn't have put it better pleto, Grim deserves a ten and more! But rags hasn't played Grim. Come on, you just have to! Say Bird (Crow TLJ joke), what did you think of Grim? Anyway, nice review, I will be getting the game at some point. If it took so long to reach other countries, I think it's safe to assume/hope it'll get here at around 2005 but I might order it online sometime. Hmm, I feel like a discussion on adevnture game theory... Tommorow maybe I have plyed Grim Fandango. It is one of the best games, yes, but it certainly doesn't beat The Last Expres, and I didn't even give that one a 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglasmcc Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 No offense ragou, but it sounds like your ratings system only goes to 9. Sorry, but its not fair to say 10= The best game that ever will be made. How can you judge that? Unless you play the game 5 minutes before Armageddon or World War 3, how can you every grade a game better than anything else that could ever be made? Even if you enjoyed a game to the point of adventure "orgazmo" (and it doesnt have to be a Leisure Suit Larry game to qualify for this title ), how could you be sure that no game would ever be better? The way I would create a ratings system is define the alpha and omega... I would pick 1 or 2 games I had played that deserved a 1 and one that deserved a 10. Off the top of my head I would put Aliens: A Comic Book Adventure at 1 (only Adventure game I ever bought I refused to finish... the license was there for so much greatness and Cyro FUBAR-ed it bad) and Grim Fandango at 10. That was off the top of my head. Grim will always be at the top, but the 1 could change. Back on topic... I would use that ten game to help me define the system. I play Runaway, then while I think of a grade, Im thinking, " how does this compare to Grim?" By creating a 10 grade, it helps you put your other reviews in perspective. And you can always replace Grim at top if another game better comes along (although I think it would take an Adventure Game Renaissance for that to happen). Having an "unattainable" top score just doesnt work for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Originally posted by GinnyW Btw, in the LEC entertainment pack, did Grim Fandango come in a box, a jewel case, cardboard cover thingy (that's how I got it, instead of a jewel case just a carton "pocket" thing, which came inside a box), or how? I'm wondering cause I want to get it probably, for FT and the dig etc, and to have the original GF box (mine was in hebrew cause I bought it here in israel ). Is it the normal version or a special edition or something? Are these questions useless if you haven't opened it? The pack contains 4 plastic boxes (like the ones that are nowadays used for a lot of recent games; don't know if there is a name for those boxes; what is a jewel case anyway) all together in a cardboard sleeve. I doubt it's an original Grim box; the covers of all cases are very similar (they all have a blue background). There is no manual (it's on the cd as a pdf) and the 2 CDs are just placed on top of each other. Hope you know something more now edit: I almost never use a walkthrough; a lot of adventure games have UHS-files: just hints.->They don't spoil everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wajus Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Originally posted by Douglasmcc No offense ragou, but it sounds like your ratings system only goes to 9. Sorry, but its not fair to say 10= The best game that ever will be made. How can you judge that? You made a great (and very funny) point. It would be also a good idea to grade games the way that the best game (in your opinion) that was yet published to this day should get a score of 10. Well it kinda sounds like Douglas' opinion What I mean is that it isn't necessery to take any reference games. 10 score reflects would be the game that is the best at the moment. After a couple of years it would be possible to redefine (or not) your opinion on basis of game's liveliness and with comparison to other games that were published or you played after it. Edit:Well it's still similar to Douglas' point of view. What an impact it mus have had on me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragou Posted August 16, 2003 Author Share Posted August 16, 2003 Originally posted by Douglasmcc No offense ragou, but it sounds like your ratings system only goes to 9. Sorry, but its not fair to say 10= The best game that ever will be made. How can you judge that? Unless you play the game 5 minutes before Armageddon or World War 3, how can you every grade a game better than anything else that could ever be made? Even if you enjoyed a game to the point of adventure "orgazmo" (and it doesnt have to be a Leisure Suit Larry game to qualify for this title ), how could you be sure that no game would ever be better? The way I would create a ratings system is define the alpha and omega... I would pick 1 or 2 games I had played that deserved a 1 and one that deserved a 10. Off the top of my head I would put Aliens: A Comic Book Adventure at 1 (only Adventure game I ever bought I refused to finish... the license was there for so much greatness and Cyro FUBAR-ed it bad) and Grim Fandango at 10. That was off the top of my head. Grim will always be at the top, but the 1 could change. Back on topic... I would use that ten game to help me define the system. I play Runaway, then while I think of a grade, Im thinking, " how does this compare to Grim?" By creating a 10 grade, it helps you put your other reviews in perspective. And you can always replace Grim at top if another game better comes along (although I think it would take an Adventure Game Renaissance for that to happen). Having an "unattainable" top score just doesnt work for me. The reason I haven't given a 10 to any game I've played is simply that there are enough flaws in those games to not be worth a 10. Simple enough. Grim Fandango for example had it's not very good interface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglasmcc Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Please do not take the following as a personal attack. I dont want to sound like those pre-teens on Gamefaqs, "well, you are wrong N00b, you SUXXORS!" I realize that all reviews are opinions and no ones opinions is wrong. But, to be honest, I don't think you should use a number scale at all. I read the reviews on your page.. very nicely written. However, the numbers at the end don't seem to "match up." As an example, the Runaway review really didn't read like a "6" review. I know you have a different number scale, but you have to consider that numbers require people to make inherent judgements based on life experiences. In High School, some kids look at a 80 as a great grade, but others would feel like they failed somehow by getting a 80. That's why, as a school teacher, I have always been against a strict number/letter grading scale. Your reviews would be perfect if you just obmitted the number part and left the written summary. Besides, the only reason that sites like IGN and Gamespot use number scales is to please the action and sports junkies who don't want to take 20 minutes to read 2 to 5 pages of descriptions. We are Adventure Gamers. If we dont want to read the review... well, something tells me the person clicked on the wrong forum ....: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleto4_ryan Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 I agree with Doug to some extent... I too find sometimes that sometimes there mustn't be the grades at the bottom of the reviews. I mean (mostly) a Grade can not describe perfectly a game.... But they are surely importand for many things...and not only for the people with no brains that just want to lok how in 100 the game went... Anyway my point of judging.... When i play a game first i see what the game gives to me... Is it a game just for pleasure or a game with meanings (most adventures) They are both essential but they have nothing in common so the thinking shall be different... Take a look at the new Hulk...it's just pass your time when your mind is full or you are tired...Get in there and bit everybody It's great to feel hulk inside you but it's awful as a "good" game....shall that give us a reason to throw it a very low grade because it's not smart .....ok back to subject i am raving Let's take grim and critisize it for example. It has its flaws....(there can never be a game, movie, book without a single flaw because they are humans' makings) SO what do you see first...Is the story good...is it interesting and does it put you in the computer and forget about your surroundings.... But if you take it, and see if it as good or better as another game is SUPER wrong.... You don't judge a game with another. You see it at its own...how it stads, Can it stand? Do you feel it, does it say to you something, can you get its meaning easily or even if you don't get it, can you feel the meaning under the game's skin? Are the grafics-speech-dialogues good enought to take you inside that world. ARe the puzzles enought well based on the story, difficult so much as to help you see the story and not keeping you behind from it? And is the interface easy enought to feel it part of your body? hm.....to be exact... You judge a game by judging it towards your best game, that you have created in your mind....a game that doesn't yet and in most cases will never get out.... Just use logic, feelings and heart.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglasmcc Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 Although this thread is not really about Grim, I would like to bring up a point made by ragou. What was so bad about the interface in Grim Fandango? The lack of mouse control? The first time I played the demo, I missed mouse control. However, after an hour with the full game, I didnt even notice it anymore. I thought the interface was rather nice. It was ingenious to actually "pull the inventory item out of his jacket." And for once we didnt have to worry about logic in inventory systems (umm.... Indy how are you carrying all those giant granite slabs in your pockets?) since the game was based in the afterworld where they could create any logic they wanted. I have never considered the interface a priority in adventure games UNLESS it hampered you playing it. Its not like a RTS games such as Red Alert 2 where every second counts. My grading scale for adventure games would be this: Story: 35% Puzzles: 30% Presentation(graphics and sound): 20% Interface: 10% Value: 5% And by value, I mean game time in relation to cost. Full Throttle was a fun game, but I finished it the same day I bought it (I believe like 6 hours). That ridiculous for a 50 dollar game. If the puzzles are too easy or the game is just too short, I feel cheated. Now charge 19.99 (like Dark Fall) or even 29.99 and it becomes less of an issue. An action game can be short since its fun to replay those. However, adventure games, at least to me, are all about the story and the puzzles. Thats not something very conducive to replay (yes, I admit its fun to replay older adventure games after 5 or 6 years, but Im talking about replaying right after you complete it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragou Posted August 16, 2003 Author Share Posted August 16, 2003 Kicking out the grading is probably the best option. It isn't really necessary and draws away attention from the real review. Plus, it always have somewhat of a guess over it. I will do that sometime. And regarding the interface in Grim Fandango. It isn't bad because you don't use a mouse. (Note: I don't have big problems with the interface, I just think it could have been much better). It is bad because it takes painfully long time to do things sometimes. It can be a pain to position Manny correct so as to turn his head towards the object you want to interact with. And sometimes he just suddenly begins to turn when you want him to go straight ahead. But the most problematic thing is that it takes too long to fetch an item you want, especially when you carry lots of things. You have to go through all of them, to try to find the one that you want. Two clicks on mouse or keyboard should be all that is necessary to get an object from the inventory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleto4_ryan Posted August 16, 2003 Share Posted August 16, 2003 just for the history... I loved grim's interface...revolution and it drew you straight into the land of the dead and above all... NO PIXEL HUNTING OUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinnyW Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 ragou: About inventory items being shown one by one: that may slow down the game, but it is much more immersive and realistic than seeing a spread out of several items. I lived the interface for the fact that it was all hidden except for dialogs, allowing for full immersion in the game. No cursor to remind you are playing a game, no hotspots lighting up etc, just turning your head. It may be slightly hard to get a hang of at first, but it's the most naturalt hing, you aproach items, and Manny turns his head at them , looking around. I find this to be ingenious. I think what pleto was trying to say was, even if a game has a flaw or two (Grim might have the slight flaw of crashing sometimes, but the patch helps fix that so really can't count it anymore), I see no flaws in Grim, probably because I am not entirely objective, but minor flaws do not matter when a game leaves you thinking about it, seeing it in your head, quoting it and such, for long after you've played it. It is hard to choose one thing hat was so great about Grim, since it's the combination of everything that makes it great, but what I'm trying to say is, even a game with flaws can be perfect, it all depends on your taste and on what you feel about it. Douglas: I somewhat agree with your priorities, but there are some more things I take into consideration: Story & characters: 30% Dialogs: 20% Puzzles & interactivity: 20% Graphics: 12% Music & sound & voice acting: 8% Interface: 8% Value: 2% However, this is by no means an exact scale of what each factor is worth, because a great story with great puzzles, dialogs, and graphics, but bad interface and sound, would probably receive more than 84% precent despite it's shortcomings, but a game with stunning graphics, music, interface, dialogs, but terrible story and puzzles, might receive even less than 50%, it all depends. I think the numbering is really nit that important, but should still be added as an approximate estimation on the games quality. AGers idea of presenting the Pros, Cons, and Bottom line/Conclusion as a taste of the review is a great idea! Games can have so much more in them than it seems. While discussing what needs to be improved in adventure games in a different forum, I find myself always mentioning GF because of what it has done so well . *collapses* This should be enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragou Posted August 17, 2003 Author Share Posted August 17, 2003 Originally posted by GinnyW ragou: About inventory items being shown one by one: that may slow down the game, but it is much more immersive and realistic than seeing a spread out of several items. I lived the interface for the fact that it was all hidden except for dialogs, allowing for full immersion in the game. No cursor to remind you are playing a game, no hotspots lighting up etc, just turning your head. It may be slightly hard to get a hang of at first, but it's the most naturalt hing, you aproach items, and Manny turns his head at them , looking around. I find this to be ingenious. I couldn't agree less. Inventory items shown one by one isn't more immersive or realistic. When was the last time you had a bunch of things in your pocket and when you want something from your pocket you pick one of them, take it out and look at it and decide if that is what you want. If it isn't put it back and take out the next item. Repeat. And you don't need every bloody detail in a game. You almost never show any lengthy travel-time and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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