Tanukitsune Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 I know there are people against and in favor of abandonware / emmulation, I always prefer to have the real thing, but... There are a couple games that are just too rare: -Colossal Cave Adventure: Where it all started... Finding it would be as hard as finding an "Action Comics Nº1" and only slighty less expensive... -The SAGA games (Scott Adams Great Adventure): If Colossal cave is the Action Comics Nº1, this would be Detective Comics Nº1... If no one gets the references I'm gonna feel a million years old... All I know is that I will pobally never find them and if I do they would cost a fortune... Should I: A) Try anyway? B) Download them? I know the SAGA games are freeware, but I'm not sure about colossal cave... There are only two situation in which I would download abondonware: -When game system is broken (My Amiga 500 doesn't work but that doesn't mean I can't play with my game anymore) -When the games don't work (Old disquette games usually stop working after a few years) Would this be a situation in which downloading the games would be a good idea? How do you feel about abanoware? When do you think it's right and when is it wrong? Err.. sorry if you think this is a delicate subject... I'm not even sure if I am allowed to talk about this... Hmm I do remember a thread about Beneath A Steel Sky being freeware so I guess since I am asking if these games are freeware and if would legal to get them... Man I think I worry too much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zygomaticus Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 I tend to think of a game as abandonware or something you can download for free if you can and want to, without any moral rule-breaking, if the game is difficult to obtain. If a game is so rare that I'm going to have to hunt for it, then I, either 1) forget about it or 2) try to download it from somewhere. Realistically, the only game I've ever done that to is "Prince of Persia 1," and that's about it. I wouldn't blame someone for being morally wrong just because he did something so he could save himself hours of hunting and just get an old game that he/she wants to play. Companies mustn't make you hunt for a game. If they have a website and store, then it should be available. If not, or if they don't exist anymore, then it can be considered abandonware. Correct me, if I'm wrong on that last point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fov Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 I see a big difference between abandonware (stuff that's been abandoned by the company) and warez (new releases, stuff that's commercially available, etc.) Personally, I don't have any problem with abandonware. I just tend not to advocate it because I know that's not a popular opinion. If a game's available on CD, I'd feel bad downloading it... but I don't have a problem downloading games that came out floppies. I guess they just feel old enough to me. I'd always rather own the game, and I'm constantly hitting the thrift stores looking for oldies. I've bought a lot of old games this way -- some I'd already downloaded off abandonware sites. I like to get the manual and the box, too, if I can. I also tend to download games I owned at one point and can't play anymore (old Apple or Mac games, or games whose disks have gone bad), or Sierra games I wanted as a kid but couldn't play at the time because they were never released for the mac. In fact, the ones I've downloaded and played through have all been games I already played at some point. When I go to start a game, it doesn't occur to me to download an old one... there are so many waiting on my shelf, already. -emily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanukitsune Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 OK, did I neglect to say that these games are probably for the TSR-80, a computer so old it belongs in the Smithsonian? Btw krkode I got me a copy of Prince of Persia on the Internet recently, not abandonware, A SHOP, the REAL thing! And if you have a modern mobile phone you can buy it / download it too... These games are so old I'm not sure what format they had, possibly 5.25" disquettes... I found out the Scott Adams has put the collection of his games on his webpage for download.... And I found a Colossal Cave page that has the game for donwload and it says the source code is used with permission of the creator... I guess I'm more strict than others with abandonware, I'd never download a CD game, those are easy to find... My problem is half guilt, half wanting the real thing, the box, the manuals, the disks, the vintage retro funk... Sniff sniff ... ahh... Cybersniff 2000! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fov Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 if the author has put them up for download, i really don't see anything wrong with it. he might not own the copyrights, but if no one is out there defending the copyrights, where's the harm? -emily ps as for the format, i played many of the Scott Adams games (at least i think they were Scott Adams -- Pirate Adventure, Ghost Town, Mystery Fun House... that sort of thing?) on a TI home entertainment system... it was an atari knockoff, plugged into the TV. the games came on audio tapes and you had to hook the tape player to the console with a special hookup. then you pressed play on the tape recorder and it somehow fed the information into the console -- took about 30 minutes, making a terrible noise all the while (worse than a modem connecting). i'd venture to say you don't have a moral obligation to hunt those games down in their original format... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomStLeger Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 I'm all for abandonware and emulation. If a game is not being supported or made avaliable by a publisher I think it's ok to download those games - it's realistic to believe that those games will never be commercially available again. If a company sells their game, or I find a copy at a resonable price on ebay etc., sure I'll buy it. But otherwise whats the alternative? I think people should be allowed to enjoy classic games if they want to. The abandonware scene allows games to be shared and enjoyed by many people, helping prevent games disappearing into oblivion. One rather large site (which I'm probably not allowed to mention but you can find easily in google) has a huge database of old games, many from companies that don't even exist anymore. I'm in no doubt that if it weren't for this site, some games would be on the verge of oblivion today as the number of legal copies become rarer and rarer. If companys don't want the abandonware scene, all they have to do is either make their games avaliable at a reasonable price. Infact, the IDSA should be doing that very thing, instead of all these companys wasting money shutting down something run by the fans for the fans. As for Emulation, perfectly legal (as long as you use your own ROM and Disk images). I use WinUAE with my Kickstart 3.1 rom image from my own A1200, and disk images of my own games. Anyone who owns an amiga should give it a go. Also, visit http://www.back2roots.org It has a completely legal collection of amiga disk images (including, suprisingly, sierra games) as well as a huge compatibility list to help set up your favourite games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twifkak Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Scott Adams Colossal Cave (zcode) Yes, I'm pro-abandonware, and on the fence about warez (it definitely is immoral as it is now, but there's gotta be something in between the anarchy of warez and the monolithic control of copyright). I recognize that both are, in the views of the law, illegal. Yay law. We should all support the Son of Patriot Act and the secret arrests it allows. Oh wait, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twifkak Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Originally posted by DomStLeger One rather large site (which I'm probably not allowed to mention but you can find easily in google) Hint: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanukitsune Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 Ok, I just read all about IDSA and abandoware, so here is the low-down.... IDSA is not about piracy, its about intelectual property, so: -If you go to the Al Lowe site and download a game with his consent, it would be illegal beacuse Sierra still owns the intellectual property to the games, even though HE made the games... -But if you go to the company / founder of the company site like the Scott Adams page... He created the company, he owns the game completely, so if he puts a game on his site, its ok... I also think its ok to download the game if you already own it, but I'm not 100% sure I think you need consent anyway.... But IMHO... I am pro-abandonware / antipiracy, one thing is downloading zork and another is downloading a game that just hit the shelves... But WHO owns the intelectual property of a game? The company, the author? If we emailed them and asked them would they answer, do they give a damn? Some say you can't download a game you own? Oh well I guess "the battle" will never end... IDSA will never allow abandonware and the abandonwares tittle will not be re-released, so I guess it up to the gamer to decide wether to do it or not... In my case I always look on Ebay first... I prefer the real thing... If I can get Magnetic Scrolls games I can get almost any game.... Except the ones I mentioned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twifkak Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Originally posted by Tanukitsune Ok, I just read all about IDSA and abandoware, so here is the low-down.... Wow. Within a minute of each other to boot. I sense a merge coming on.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 From the "rather large site": But isn't abandonware illegal? Unfortunately, yes. Despite the fact that publishers no longer derive revenues from these games since they have stopped selling them (and any revenues from retailers that still sell them were gained a long time ago, at the time of sales), it is illegal to distribute them so long as copyright holders have not released them into the public domain, and 95 years after the games' release have not elapsed. For more in-depth information on this issue, We recommend the following articles and websites: Abandonware in a Nutshell: Why Nobody Ever Wins ( http://www.mobygames.com/featured_article/feature=7/ ) Flashbacks for Free: The Skinny on Abandonware ( http://gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/abandonware/ ) Warez, Abandonware, and the SIIA ( http://www.brasslantern.org/community/companies/warez.html ) Anti-Piracy Information at the IDSA ( http://www.idsa.com/piracy.html ) The World Intellectual Property Organization ( http://www.wipo.org/ ) Despite the illegal status of abandonware, we believe that we are offering a valuable service to the gaming community: classic game collectors have a chance to retrieve games that have otherwise been lost or rendered defective with the passage of time. As our Disclaimer printed on every page makes clear, we will gladly remove download links to any game that is either 1) still being sold by the publisher, or 2) at the request of the publishers themselves. Encouraging publishers to continue publishing great classics of yore has always been this site's foremost goals, and we will gladly link to the publisher's order or download site without hesitation should they make their products available again, whether commercially or as freeware. That said, we are continually seeking permission from copyright holders to distribute their games on this site. If you are a copyright holder and would like to grant us permission (or request that your games be taken off-line, as the case may be), please contact us. If you want to voice support for abandonware, check out the following petition sites: The AbandonWare Petition ( http://mivox.com/essays/text/petition.html ) the International Campaign of Abandonware Supporters (ICAS) ( http://www.bhlegend.com/icas ) So it is illegal (I thought it was OK to download the games that aren't sold anymore, but I was wrong ) But i am pro abandonware, especially in the case of this rather large site. I mean, it's not like it's some underground warez site or something; publishers can react and so on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadworm222 Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Talking anout abandon ware is allowed as long as you don't post links to abandonware websites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fov Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 But WHO owns the intelectual property of a game? The company, the author? If we emailed them and asked them would they answer, do they give a damn? as with any medium, the creator does not always own the copyright. this is a sad but true fact in any publishing realm (and in most companies, to some extent). i'm a writer. if I want a piece published in a magazine, i have to abide by that magazine's rules. (err... and capitalize my sentences...) in some cases, the copyright reverts back to the author after the magazine is published. in others, the magazine retains the rights for a period of time, or requires that if the piece is published again the first magazine gets credit. in some cases you never get the rights to the piece back again (i wouldn't deal with a company like this unless it was a really sweet deal, though...) so of course al lowe has no say over what happens to leisure suit larry... just as jane jensen can't make another GK game (or even write a GK book). BUT, al lowe has had some of his games available for download on his site for years, and Sierra's never done anything about it. they've gone to great lengths to pull sierra games from abandonware sites, though. i'm sure they know Al Lowe's doing it, but they've chosen their battles... it shows a bit of respect for the author, even though legally they would win. -emily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Las Naranjas Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Despite the IDSA hawking down on any piracy of Sierra games, it's fairly common to find people who have emailed the company for permission to download abandoned titles (like say "Conquest of the Longbow) to receive it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattsius Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Originally posted by DomStLeger I'm all for abandonware and emulation. If a game is not being supported or made avaliable by a publisher I think it's ok to download those games - it's realistic to believe that those games will never be commercially available again. If a company sells their game, or I find a copy at a resonable price on ebay etc., sure I'll buy it. But otherwise whats the alternative? I think people should be allowed to enjoy classic games if they want to. The abandonware scene allows games to be shared and enjoyed by many people, helping prevent games disappearing into oblivion. One rather large site (which I'm probably not allowed to mention but you can find easily in google) has a huge database of old games, many from companies that don't even exist anymore. I'm in no doubt that if it weren't for this site, some games would be on the verge of oblivion today as the number of legal copies become rarer and rarer. If companys don't want the abandonware scene, all they have to do is either make their games avaliable at a reasonable price. Infact, the IDSA should be doing that very thing, instead of all these companys wasting money shutting down something run by the fans for the fans. I totally agree on all your points Dom. I am very much pro abandonware and I think that you can download an old game if it isn't available anymore and/or you have to go true hell to get the game your looking for. And the most important thing with abandonware is that it prevents the old games from disappearing into oblivion, as Dom put it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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