[MOD] EAW: Open Conflict

[Meethos]

I think adding a fighter wing, a bomber wing and a corvette to each side should be enough. The fighters should be able to target ground units but with hardly any effect/hit chance.[/Quote] So how is this gonna work, these units just spawn at the start of the battle? Allow abandon Sensor Arrays to call in the units? Or does whoever control the space above get to bring in its ships from its fleet. Or do you have something else in mind?

 

Wow... are you saying you want another space battle above the land battle?

Maybe.....

 

Tal doesn't like any of my Ideas...

[exar-kun]

Thought this might interest u guys, seeing as you've discussed it before.

 

Hey, after restarting my imperial campaign because of the heroe disapearance bug, I have now run into a new issue.

The shield generator on Nal Hutta is inside the shield. So no bombing, no shooting at it, no nothing. Now, maybe I would still be able to somehow take it down with some uber-cheesy tactic... but the Rebels do have those "one unit to pwn them all" artillery already. That means I can't enter the shield without having a few of those firing at me, meaning even Darth Vader won't live long enough to even scratch the shield generator.

 

It isn't a bug, in fact it was a last minute decesion by petro to allow this feature, seeing as the other way around goes against Star Wars cannon. I would suggest using veers and maximum fire on the generator or shield, and bring other at-ats for back up. Use the repulsor tank to get rid of the pesky artillary and then use maulers to rid the infantry. When attacking the artillary make sure to be close to them though.

[Adonnay]

So how is this gonna work, these units just spawn at the start of the battle? Allow abandon Sensor Arrays to call in the units? Or does whoever control the space above get to bring in its ships from its fleet. Or do you have something else in mind?

 

Maybe.....

 

Tal doesn't like any of my Ideas...

Yea, Tal can be very straight at times... now he even demands a detailed documentation of what I change

 

Besides Tal, what is so non-canon about having fighters and bombers in the atmosphere that you get offended by it? (not that I have that implemented already... it takes time and I still have to see if it works at all).

[rocketeer]

If you go back and read my post, you'll see that a HEAVY turbolaser can vaporize a fighter. The standard turbolasers on ISDs are not heavy ones. Respectfully, please go do your homework before you keep arguing about this.

 

The only time in the original Star Wars movies that we see clear examples of a fighter with full shields being blown away is by the heavy turbolasers on the Death Star I and the Executor. Vader was scoring critical hits at Yavin. And in the Endor battle, we never see how many shots the crippled Alliance fighters may have fended off before they finally died.

 

Where did i say i was talking about ISDs? And the ISD II does sport heavy turbolasers, so you cant just say ISDs dont have them. Another example would be the Venator, it also has heavy turbolasers.

 

Besides i was talking about turbolasers in general, and didnt want to go ship specific. And last time i checked heavy turbolasers are turbolasers too, its just a different subcategory like medium turbolasers. Its not like they are a different weapon or some such ...

 

Edit: I still dont think a fighter could survive even the hit of a medium turbolaser, considering those fighter shields can be taken down by laser cannons in a few sec, and those are much weaker than even the smallest turbolaser.

[exar-kun]

Hey Adonnay, hows it going with ship spawn in the land battles?

[Tal Odo-ki]

Where did i say i was talking about ISDs? And the ISD II does sport heavy turbolasers, so you cant just say ISDs dont have them. Another example would be the Venator, it also has heavy turbolasers.

You're right, sorry. Half the turbolasers on an ISD II are "heavy" (Death Star type). The Venator's "heavy" turbolasers aren't. They are equal to the standard ones on the ISD II (which are more powerful than the medium turbolasers of an ISD I). Just to be clear, there is one intermediate step in turbolaser power between "medium" (ISD I, 5d10x5) and "heavy" (death star, 10d10x5). That turbolaser has no adjective (medium, heavy). It is simply called a "turbolaser" and in the RPG does 7d10x5 damage. Unless there is a lucky hit, or a fighter already has depleted shields, only the heavy (ie: 10d10x5) variety can instantly vaporize a fighter.

[exar-kun]

Okay... I have a very VERY sketchy idea for making a space hero unit. Then you just have to choose what you want to put inside the ship. Should be easy, but I dont' know if it works.

Go into UNIQUEUNITS.XML, and change the ships at the bottom of the list (down there is Virago and Moldy Crow) however you want. They're pretty much normal ships, so I won't explain much. So you mess with the ship however you want, then you go to the HEROCOMPANIES.XML and take the Katarn_Team (or whoever you want) and copy them and put them in the list for that faction (I added the Virago to the Pirates, so I made a new section). Rename the team to something that fits what it is (I set it to Virago_Team). Mess with the files however you want, make sure the unit is set to the correct Affiliation, and then go to the CAMPAINGS_SINGLEPLAYER.XML and find whichever conquest map you want to edit, and put in this:

<Starting_Forces> The Faction, The Planet, Your_Team </Starting_Forces>

This will make them appear, and they will act like a normal hero. This is what I did to make Virago useable.

 

It would be a good idea to have the Virago as a unit for pirate forces. It is, after all, Prince Xizors personal ship , and Prince Xizor just happens to be head of Black Suns, the pirate faction in EaW. Make him an uber pirate hero to even the odds a little. Or mass produce his ship type as another pirate fighter(pirates sure love their fighters)

 

Also, pirates modify a lot of their ships, so it would be a good idea to have 'modified' Z-95s or V-wings. The Z-95s could have a higher weapon delay but a light con. missle launcher to compensate for this. The V-wings could either be full-blown bombers with those shield piercing torps or interceptor type fighters with light con missles instead (even though that doesn't follow canon, sry Tal).

 

exar-kun

[Tal Odo-ki]

Besides Tal, what is so non-canon about having fighters and bombers in the atmosphere that you get offended by it? (not that I have that implemented already... it takes time and I still have to see if it works at all).

The fact that you are proposing to include units that are almost never used for ground attack in the ground attack portion of this game. The game already has a working, effective mechanic for representing ground attacks by starfighters. It doesn't need more units for that purpose, or to have the existing mechanic changed. It works just fine as is. IMO. Adding the Corvette is just insult to injury. There isn't an example I can think of where we see a capital ship (a Corvette is a small capital ship) engaging in close air support. Hell, the Acclamators and Corellian Cruisers were as capable of it as a Corvette and yet we didn't see them do it. Why? Because that is not how they are used.

 

Finally, I did mention in an earlier post that the targeting systems on starfighters do not lend themselves to hitting small targets (a tank is a small target compared to a fighter). Capital starships are incapable of it at all. They literally cannot hit anything smaller than a large building.

[rocketeer]

Besides if we add corvettes to land combat just because they theoretically be used in that way, we should also add the ability to perform a "Base ground Zero" maneuver to capital ships cause thats possible too ... But imho both would totally screw up landcombat(the latter quite literally ).

 

Edit: Or get unrealistic pretty fast. A corvette should be able to pulverize a building on one end of the map while being at the other end. But what i really miss is orbital bombardment . There are even planetary shields against that afaik, just have to activate it.

[Tal Odo-ki]

Besides if we add corvettes to land combat just because they theoretically be used in that way, we should also add the ability to perform a "Base ground Zero" maneuver to capital ships cause thats possible too ... But imho both would totally screw up landcombat(the latter quite literally ).

Wow, we actually agree on something again. Someone please slap me, I must be dreaming ...

[rocketeer]

Its just happenstance ... i think landcombat is pretty much symbolic, not meant to be realistic. If we now add stuff like corvettes it not only would become balance hell, we would also have to use unrealistic weapon power. Besides if we add corvettes, it wont take long for someone to ask for a acclamator, then a victory, and before we know it, its spacecombat on the background of a landmap .

 

Edit: Besides it really would bring up alot of questions like "why cant i have a stardestroyer for landcombat" by people like this:

http://ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20060222

[Tal Odo-ki]

Well, I did try in my totally unsubtle (or as he puts it: blunt) way to ask Adonnay to abandon the idea. It's such a BAD idea. Just leave the silly spaceships on the space map. It's not too much to ask.

[Adonnay]

Very well... since I don't want to offend the mod community by adding fighters and corvettes to ground combat I shall remove them again (well the two I've added so far). Though I do think it adds alot to gameplay and tactics. Turbolasers and AA turrets would get more importance for both sides, a new building, the communications tower, requires more base management and more tactical decisions.

 

And I actually can't see why a X-Wing shouldn't be able to attack ground units - only because it's not seen in the movies? I think the point for using the speeder is mainly cost. I'm sure it's much cheaper than the X-Wing and therefore the primary ground support vehicle. If you have a reticule and some cannons you can aim at everything. It has nothing to do with targeting computers or anything...

 

About the corvette... well it surely would need balancing... namely units to counter it. But again... I can't see why it shouldn't be able to attack ground forces for 1. it is much smaller than an Acclamator and 2. therefore much cheaper to operate (number 1 reason for an Acclamator to not do ground support surely was cost again. Shooting birds with cannons) and 3. does some pretty slick moves in the atmosphere as seen in EP 3.

[exar-kun]

well, u can blame me for bringing up the issue of ships in land battles, just thought it would be cool at the time, sry >.<

[rocketeer]

It wouldnt go so far as to call it offensive, i just think you cant counter it. It would have a damage output many times that of a AT-AT, and have the firepower to kill any building in a few secs. How do you want to balance that? Dont forget that corvettes actually take several hits from a ISD mounted turbolaser atm. We cant have them go down vs some wimpy ground structe in a few secs, and if it would take more than a few secs you could annihilate the enemy base completly ignoring his defenses.

 

Also the current cost system makes no sense if we mix ground and space forces, a spaceship should be more expensive than a AT-AT ...

 

P.S. And X-Wings also would absolutly pwn anything, a few proton torpedos and pretty much anything would be reduced to dust.

 

Edit: Tal mentioned they have problems hitting small targets, well the thing is they dont have to hit, pretty sure it would be bad for infantry to be even in the general area of such a bombardment

[exar-kun]

hey Adonnay, wanted to take a moment to thx u for all ur patiance in taking the time to hear us all out and endring our rantings about everything. I wouldve gone beserk days ago.

 

exar-kun

[exar-kun]

hey Adonnay, wanted to take a moment to thx u for all ur patiance in taking the time to hear us all out and enduring our rantings about everything. I wouldve gone beserk days ago.

 

exar-kun

[Tal Odo-ki]

Adonnay:

• A starfighter is immune to the fire from personal weapons, and only an AT-AT has the laser firepower to actually try to bring one down.
  
• The skill required to hit ground targets with starfighter lasers is beyond that of most pilots.
  
• Having a unit (starfighter) that is immune to almost all ground weapons in the game is highly disbalancing.
  
• A Corvette is immune to all ground weapons except turbolasers. It would be so disbalancing that it would completely ruin the game. (Much like adding the Executor would to space combat.)
  
• A Corvette would cover most of the map, if done to the correct scale.
  
• Only one of the 6 turrets on a Corvette can actually fire downwards, unless the pilot turns the vessel upside down.

Need I go on?

[exar-kun]

why did it post 2 of the same message? weird

[rocketeer]

How do i send you the changes Adonnay?

[Adonnay]

It wouldnt go so far as to call it offensive, i just think you cant counter it. It would have a damage output many times that of a AT-AT, and have the firepower to kill any building in a few secs. How do you want to balance that? Dont forget that corvettes actually take several hits from a ISD mounted turbolaser atm. We cant have them go down vs some wimpy ground structe in a few secs, and if it would take more than a few secs you could annihilate the enemy base completly ignoring his defenses.

Wow wow... I think you overestimate the firepower of the Corvette, respectively understimate the firepower of an AT-AT. The Corvette has the same firepower as the A-Wing (5d10x2, not to be mixed with the 5d10x5 turbolasers), only difference it has 6 cannons instead of 1 (the 2 A-Wing cannons count as one in this calculation, X-Wing has even 6d10x2). While we have no numbers on the AT-ATs firepower I assume it will be no less than that of an X-Wing.

[exar-kun]

Adonnay:

• A starfighter is immune to the fire from personal weapons, and only an AT-AT has the laser firepower to actually try to bring one down.
  
• The skill required to hit ground targets with starfighter lasers is beyond that of most pilots.
  
• Having a unit (starfighter) that is immune to almost all ground weapons in the game is highly disbalancing.
  
• A Corvette is immune to all ground weapons except turbolasers. It would be so disbalancing that it would completely ruin the game. (Much like adding the Executor would to space combat.)
  
• A Corvette would cover most of the map, if done to the correct scale.
  
• Only one of the 6 turrets on a Corvette can actually fire downwards, unless the pilot turns the vessel upside down.

Need I go on?

 

Starfighters can do strafing runs on the ground, however, an effective tactic demonstrated in the NJO books. Units could be modified to be able to hit starfighters, like plx soldiers and the t-4b tanks with rockets(as ive stated before). The imps would have fighters too, so there would be an air counter, and the AT-AA could attack starfighters as well. The corvette would not be immune to attacks from a tartan cruiser, the empire equivilant of the corvette. All of this is mute though, since Adonnay has decided to take this stuff out, so lets just stop talking about it ok?

[Adonnay]

How do i send you the changes Adonnay?

 

Never mind... I just got tired of waiting *grins* and made a new version for you to change: -> Version .008b <-

 

Now YOU can put the changes in

 

(all on a voluntary basis of course, if you don't want to do it, send it to me and I'll do it I'll PM you the address in both cases)

 

Edit: For those who want to enable those two flying units for skirmish despite the heavy criticism *g*: Go to the SpecialStructures.xml and remove the <!-- and --> around the "Tactical_Buildable_Objects_Multiplayer" tags.

[Tal Odo-ki]

Wow wow... I think you overestimate the firepower of the Corvette, respectively understimate the firepower of an AT-AT. The Corvette has the same firepower as the A-Wing (5d10x2, not to be mixed with the 5d10x5 turbolasers), only difference it has 6 cannons instead of 1 (the 2 A-Wing cannons count as one in this calculation, X-Wing has even 6d10x2). While we have no numbers on the AT-ATs firepower I assume it will be no less than that of an X-Wing.

I did post the AT-AT and AT-ST. Go back and look. It is half that of an X-wing, and slightly more than half of a single corvette turbolaser.

 

Besides, you are ignoring the SHIELDS of the Corvette. 'Nuff said.

[Adonnay]

I did post the AT-AT and AT-ST. Go back and look. It is half that of an X-wing, and slightly more than half of a single corvette turbolaser.

 

Besides, you are ignoring the SHIELDS of the Corvette. 'Nuff said.

Now I'm surprised... didn't know that the AT-ATs cannon was that weak compared to the fighters. So a single TIE-Fighter could have blown that shield generator up as well? Or was that only possible using this wimpy AT-AT and his power-to-weapons ability?

What are the stats on the Snowspeeder then? (sorry if you had them posted already too)