[MOD] EAW: Open Conflict

[shadoe]

The Interceptor and the Avenger do not look identical (sadly the star wars com photos are not very clear on this)

But this one is better (though the cockpit has been changed): http://starwars.mytopix.com/tie_avenger/

 

Addonay is right, the Avenger is the one in the Photo. Actually, the name "Avenger" was originally not official, it was the name the pilots gave the Tie Advanced MK2, which they saw as a weapon to avenge the loss of the first Death Star. Considering that the game is positioned in the timeline before this event, the name "Avenger" should not exist at all.

 

On the other hand, A-wings also did not exist before the battle of Yavin, they where designed by General Jan Dodonna after Yavin. The X-wing also saw action just a few weeks before Yavin, the Squadrons there being the first ones operational (Rogue Squadron Comics). Heck, even the Mon Calamari only joined the Alliance after Yavin, so there should be no Calamari Cruisers in the game at all.

 

So, it is hardly possible to hope to make this game Canon.

 

About the fighter vs. Capital issue, there are many cases in the EU where fighter Squadrons take out Firgates, VSDs or ISDs. For example, a B-Wing Squadron is considered a match for an ISD (not counting the TIEs of the ISD), and B-Wings are just more resistant and faster than Y-Wings, they do not have more torpedoes. That's why I think fighter battles should have a greater tactical importance, if enough bombers get to attack a capital ship, they should inflict heavy damage.

 

And this corvette thing - being able to easily take out fighters just has nothing to do with the Star Wars universe - at the beginning of the first Rogue Squadron Book, an X-Wing pilot races after a few TIE Bombers that attack a Corvette, knowing that if just one Bomber gets in firing range, the Corvette is history. The only dedicated anti-fighter vessel in the EU is the Lancer-class firgate, equipped with 20 quad lasers, and there is a scene where one of these is obliterated by a concentrated torpedo salvo from an Y-Wing Squadron.

[Tal Odo-ki]

Everything shadoe just posted is absolutely correct. The usage of the Corellian Corvette in EAW is quite non-canon as the Corvette has an insignificant anti-fighter armament (which is further hampered by very poor fire arcs: blocked to the rear by the engines, and below by the body of the lifepods to which they are mounted on top of and the "wings" on decks 2-4, nor can they fire directly forward without hitting the hammerhead). It's why so many of them in private hands have been heavily modified to mount more (and better placed) lasers, and/or carry up to a half-dozen starfighters in the belly hold.

[rocketeer]

I think the differences lie in the armament, especially b-wings are supposed to be heavily modularized, and getting refitted for every fight. I also recall that b-wings could be fitted with atleast light missiles, heavy missiles, proton torpedos and proton bombs. Depending on which kind of operation there was to conduct.

 

Its kinda like real life, can a single b-52 level a entire city? With a nuclear bomb yes, but in general not. We only have one kind of armament for our bombers, and it wouldnt make sense costwise that these bombers would all be flying around with the heavy proton bombs that are designed to kill large capital ships. I think it would be fair to assume that a single of these bombs costs more than the entire bomberwing ...

 

So its kinda a limit in gamephysics, normally you should be able to change the armament of your bombers, but we have to use a all purpose weapon.

 

Anyone remember the game tie fighter? Or xwing vs tiefighter? Those games pretty much showed the power fighters and bombers should posses(hey the deathstar was after all killed by a fighter), but i fear its not possible in this game. Fighters are the equivalent to soldiers in ground battle, they are supposed to be cheap meatshields, dont grow attached to them .

 

Edit: I dont really get why people are complaining about certain ships not exactly being canon, i loose like 100 fighters + bombers every battle i fight, and because they are garrison units i get them replaced for free and instantly after every battle ...

 

And how canon is it that a stardestroyer that got very heavily damaged is automagically fully repaired as soon as the battle is over? . Its a game in which i can level a few dozen planets with my deathstar, its more a 'what if' type of game then a 'play the movies game' kind of game like those who crept up after the lord of the rings movies for example .

 

George Lucas once said he considers the entire EU to be happening in parallel universes, i think thats a neat concept which also nicely explains all those little(and big) inconsitancies between the various sources.

 

So lets all just have fun with this little gem of a mod .

[Tal Odo-ki]

Rocketeer, in real life bombers often do carry a variety of different bombs in the same load. In the SWRPG, you are not permitted to mix the type of missiles in each launcher (but you can mix them so long as they are in different tubes). EAW is more abstract still. EAW assumes that ships are using the most powerful weapons available to them, and reload cost is not a factor.

 

Finally, in real life, with the exception of nuclear weapons, the "conventional" weapons on an aircraft are much cheaper than the value of the aircraft itself, nevermind an entire wing of them. BTW, an entire wing of any aircraft is more expensive than even a few nukes. In Star Wars, proton torps (which are nukes, BTW) are MUCH cheaper than the fighters that carry them, and compared to the cost of cruisers and SDs, assault missiles (true ship-killers) are insignificant in cost.

[rocketeer]

Well i was talking about proton bombs, which are the much much bigger brother of the proton torpedos. And whats so abstract in always having to use the same most powerful weapon(which they dont)? I would call that rather simplistic. Why would we want to discuss real life weapon costs? You said 'with the exception of nuclear weapons' and next you say they are nuclear weapons ... point is not all bombers should use the same armament all the time. And i think if the empire would try arming all of its bomber wings(on like what 25000 stardestroyers + whatever is garrisoned somewhere?) with proton bombs it would be a problem.

 

This is from wikipedia about proton torpedos:

The yield of these weapons varies with the type of proton torpedo used; known yields range from single kiloton warheads by Luke Skywalker against the first Death Star to the 190 megaton warhead used by Jango Fett against Obi-wan Kenobi

 

I highly doubt all bombers always use the 190 megaton variant ...

 

Edit: Actually that variant might only be used by capital ships, but this variety still implies that there are several kinds of proton torpedos for bombers used.

 

Edit2: So if we talk about proton torpedos and the damage they should do, do we mean the kiloton one or the 190 megaton one, or something inbetween? Imho there are just to many variables.

[Tal Odo-ki]

I think somewhere along the way, rocketeer, you missed the point of what shadoe was trying to say. Namely, that fighters in EAW aren't as effective in space battles as they are "supposed" to be if a game is trying to properly portray the "feel" of the Star Wars universe. A point, which I might add, that Adonnay is well aware of, agrees with (AFAIK), and has been struggling with for quite some time in his attempts to balance his mod.

[Tal Odo-ki]

Edit2: So if we talk about proton torpedos and the damage they should do, do we mean the kiloton one or the 190 megaton one, or something inbetween? Imho there are just to many variables.

The purported "190MT" warhead is the so-called "seismic charge" that Jango uses in ep2. It is not a warhead that would fit on a proton torpedo.

 

As for your having read it on the Wikipedia, I do hope that you're aware that people can post whatever they want to the Wiki, regardless of how "factual" it may be? Just because a Wiki (any Wiki) says something does not make it true. Most "facts" (of any sort, be they about fictional or real things) that you can get off the Internet should be taken with great caution, until they can be verified.

[rocketeer]

Well i do agree to what shadoe said, i just dont think its possible to do with this gameengine/physics. Hell i loved the early xwing games, and they felt much much more canon then this game ever will. The movies where realistic, well as realistic as a science fiction movie can be, what i mean it felt real. This game never will feel real, not because of limited modding abilities/possibilities, but because of the whole concept of it(RTS).

 

Sure we can increase the fighters and bombers efficency, i love the little buggers, and i agree it would be more canon. So while the change in itself would be canon, i dont think the result would be canon aswell. This game doesnt take all those little things into account that a rpg or movie does. What i mean is this, if you make it so that 5 squadrons of y-wings, can significantly damage a ISD(while getting protection from its fighters obviously). You automatically create the situation that 20 squadrons of y-wings can kill a ISD while ignoring the ISDs fighters.

 

Its kinda the same reason why we cant make fighters/bombers cost 50cr each, even though that would probably a realistic price compared to the 24000cr a ISD costs ... Probably they would even have to be much cheaper ...

[Tal Odo-ki]

A VSD costs almost 1000 times what a TIE does (according to the RPG), and the ISD costs 2-3 times a VSD. I'm sure you can do the math to figure out what that translates to in EAW terms ...

 

I'm also sure that after you do the math you'll see why the Empire considered TIEs expendable (even if TIE pilots didn't agree with that philosophy).

[rocketeer]

The purported "190MT" warhead is the so-called "seismic charge" that Jango uses in ep2. It is not a warhead that would fit on a proton torpedo.

 

As for your having read it on the Wikipedia, I do hope that you're aware that people can post whatever they want to the Wiki, regardless of how "factual" it may be? Just because a Wiki (any Wiki) says something does not make it true. Most "facts" (of any sort, be they about fictional or real things) that you can get off the Internet should be taken with great caution, until they can be verified.

 

Firstly, yes i know its freely editable by everyone, so how about correcting it if you know its wrong? Thats kinda the purpose of it being editable by everyone .

Secondly, none of the official sources i have found state anything about the payload of proton torpedos. At the end of the day all the sources i have seen are out of the EU, and then we might aswell use the stats from some old games like tiefighter, atleast they are based on the same concept(a realtime game), and the action in them 'looked' like the movies, which is something we cant say about this game at all .

 

P.S. Im starting to dislike this "my source is more canon than your source" this is taking, in the end the movies are canon, not rpgs not games and most certainly not books.

 

Edit: *grumbles: At least in xwing vs tiefighter it all made sense */grumble

Edit2: Good god now you did it ... im getting nostalgic and will install tiefighter again ... now where are the diskettes ...

[Somerled]

What do you guys think about Black Hole Storm Troopers? This mod form the demo has new black textures, but apparently also works in the full game. Also it looks to have Scout Troopers in black armor, but they are probably only armed with a pistol, and can't serve as a basis for Storm Commandos.

 

http://www.eawhq.de/index.php?content=downloads&dl_id=12

[Tal Odo-ki]

What do you guys think about Black Hole Storm Troopers?

Compared to the nice shiny white troopers they look ugly to me. Just my opinion, FWIW.

[Tal Odo-ki]

Firstly, yes i know its freely editable by everyone, so how about correcting it if you know its wrong? Thats kinda the purpose of it being editable by everyone .

Because I have better things to do with my time than try to nitpick everything that's slightly (or more than slightly) off in Wikis. I also expect people to be wise enough to judge the validity of what they read and do their own homework.

 

P.S. Im starting to dislike this "my source is more canon than your source" this is taking, in the end the movies are canon, not rpgs not games and most certainly not books.

The only person making such a claim is yourself. I have never said "my sources are more canon". I state precisely what sources I use, and it's up to others to judge their validity and value. You are, however, correct in that the movies (and any books taking their facts from the movies or as publications directly from LucasArts) are canon. Everything else is "educated speculation". OTOH, that website you were providing snippets from a couple of days ago on the subject of the strength of Star Wars shields (umpteen terawatt capacity) happens to base their observations on what's seen in the movies and applying real physics-based math to try to understand it. So if that site says that a proton torpedo has a warhead of X megatons, that's what it would have to have to create the effect that we see onscreen (shattered asteroids, etc.).

 

Personally, I have never cared whether a proton torp was a nuke or how many megatons it may yield, much less whether a proton torp is more powerful than a quantum torp (or whether a turbolaser is more powerful than a phaser). I love the movies, and I don't worry much about how realistic (or not) they are in terms of physics. Real bullets don't knock people off their feet, much less lasers, but it's cool to see onscreen.

 

PS - real explosions in a microgravity vacuum are spherical, not rings. But rings look cool, and besides which we (still) don't have the proper computer power to show good-looking spherical explosions in realtime graphics. (This season's finale of Battlestar Galactica has come closest.)

[Somerled]

PS - real explosions in a microgravity vacuum are spherical, not rings. But rings look cool, and besides which we (still) don't have the proper computer power to show good-looking spherical explosions in realtime graphics. (This season's finale of Battlestar Galactica has come closest.)

 

Yep...and no cool sounds either...I love the sounds the seismic charges make.

 

Interesting BSG episode, btw. I was somewhat surprised by the twist, and the one year jump in time. I'm at least glad the Pegasus was not nuked, as I halfway expected.

 

On the Black Hole Troopers, I like the white armor too, but I just think it would be cool to have another unit as well. They would be much higher in cost, with different abilities, and maybe only available on certain worlds.

 

I undestand Lucas' point that Strom Troopers want to be seen, and that the white armor is meant to intimidate. However, there will always be times where stealth is needed, and black armor is certainly more stealthy than white. I am still not sure why Scout Troopers wear white, however.

[Tal Odo-ki]

I am still not sure why Scout Troopers wear white, however.

Because Scout Troopers are stormtroopers, just specialized. The (dubious) philosophy that "we want to be seen" and "we don't care if we're spotted because we're going to crush you" still applies. Or perhaps the Empire gets such a really good price on white plastic in bulk quantities they cannot say 'no'.

 

"You will wear white," Palpatine.

'Yes, your majesty!" helpless Imperial Quartermaster General.

 

White is the new black.

[Somerled]

Because Scout Troopers are stormtroopers, just specialized. The (dubious) philosophy that "we want to be seen" and "we don't care if we're spotted because we're going to crush you" still applies. Or perhaps the Empire gets such a really good price on white plastic in bulk quantities they cannot say 'no'.

 

"You will wear white," Palpatine.

'Yes, your majesty!" helpless Imperial Quartermaster General.

 

White is the new black.

 

ROFL Poor fools...I read somewhere that the designer of the Scout Troopers equated them with kamikaze pilots, they only need to see directly ahead, hence the blinders. In the expanded canon, it is now claimed that their unique helmet contains special processors that allow them to see 180 degrees.

 

You inspired me to start a new mod called "Imperial Quatermaster: The Bureaucracy At War"

[Tal Odo-ki]

In the expanded canon, it is now claimed that their unique helmet contains special processors that allow them to see 180 degrees.

"Expanded canon" is an oxymoron. Proof? The Scout Troopers on their speeder bikes turn their heads to look at the Rebels, and then they smack into trees because their lack of 180-degree vision prevents them from noticing the rapidly-looming obstacle dead ahead before it's too late for them to react. "Special processors" my ass. If they'd had them they'd've been able to look ahead, avoiding obstacles while pointing their blasters at the Rebels and ... missing them (they're still Stormtroopers so they cannot hit anything beyond literal spitting distance). meh

[DCorris]

hmm, blackstorm troopers, i would ahve to say no, it just woudlnt look right

 

well, unless u stuck them in squads of 1-3 gave them boba fetts jetpack flying ability, made them more powerful then called them dark troopers

and as cool as thar idea would be to me (like the fighters in land battles one) im sure someone will moan about it

so please dont kill me lol

 

and i was going to say something else, but have now forgotten, so nm lol

[itsonlymonday]

"Expanded canon" is an oxymoron. Proof? The Scout Troopers on their speeder bikes turn their heads to look at the Rebels, and then they smack into trees because their lack of 180-degree vision prevents them from noticing the rapidly-looming obstacle dead ahead before it's too late for them to react. "Special processors" my ass. If they'd had them they'd've been able to look ahead, avoiding obstacles while pointing their blasters at the Rebels and ... missing them (they're still Stormtroopers so they cannot hit anything beyond literal spitting distance). meh

 

Various star wars encyclopedias do point that the Scout Troopers have "enhanced macrobinocular viewplates and sensor arrays" that would allow them to see with a 180-degree radius. Of course having that enhancment does not make them perfect, like the clones they are, they make mistakes too like humans would.

 

Back on topic, I really enjoy this mod, a few changes I made were increasing the starting credits for skirmish to 12k.. Made for much quicker battles. And I gave Mara Jade an enhanced Z-95 Headhunter.

[wolfshadow]

itsnlymonday: Where do you find the starting credits? I'd like to muck about with that occasionally.

[Adonnay]

"Expanded canon" is an oxymoron. Proof? The Scout Troopers on their speeder bikes turn their heads to look at the Rebels, and then they smack into trees because their lack of 180-degree vision prevents them from noticing the rapidly-looming obstacle dead ahead before it's too late for them to react. "Special processors" my ass. If they'd had them they'd've been able to look ahead, avoiding obstacles while pointing their blasters at the Rebels and ... missing them (they're still Stormtroopers so they cannot hit anything beyond literal spitting distance). meh

 

lol...

[Adonnay]

Various star wars encyclopedias do point that the Scout Troopers have "enhanced macrobinocular viewplates and sensor arrays" that would allow them to see with a 180-degree radius. Of course having that enhancment does not make them perfect, like the clones they are, they make mistakes too like humans would.

 

Back on topic, I really enjoy this mod, a few changes I made were increasing the starting credits for skirmish to 12k.. Made for much quicker battles. And I gave Mara Jade an enhanced Z-95 Headhunter.

Could surely be done though I personally don't like the mass money in skirmish for it makes tactics and the right decisions in the beginning of the battle insignificant. All that counts is who builds the biggest ship first. Guess it's in the GameConstants.xml

[Adonnay]

A point, which I might add, that Adonnay is well aware of, agrees with (AFAIK), and has been struggling with for quite some time in his attempts to balance his mod.

True... and just so you know, I'm just increasing the fighter and bomber survivability (against stations and capital ships) further... I hope to reach a point where fighter cover is inevitable to prevent your larger ships from beeing blown away by bombers. However you can not expect to down an ISD with 3 squadrons. You'll still need a few more...

[Adonnay]

Here's a test version... it improves the fighters and bombers while the speed of the torpedoes has been reduced. You will need the test version 008d installed. Extract into your GameData/Data/XML folder.

 

-> Fighter Improvements for 008d <-

[Koci]

Adonnay --> GREAT JOB, thank You, I told my friends about Your mod.

I will check latest version tonight (my wife is sick, must carry about :-).

 

So, HARD difficulty is really hard as You told :-)

AI is cheating all ways, but it's funny, seems Empire is weak in space with first 3 tech levels at least, and music is better IMHO when You play as Rebellion. Thank You again, keep up good work please.

 

Best Regards

 

Koci