Adonnay Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Okay, I'll make the changes. And it's not the Venator that's 11000, I have TWO copies of the VSD, one that gets the 20% frigate discount, and one that doesn't (in spite of being labelled as a "frigate class ship"). Why do I have two VSD types? EDIT: I made the Nebulon-B tech 2 and the Corellian Gunship tech 1. The Nebulon-B is considerably more powerful than a Gunship. Since the Empire only has Tartans at tech 1, it's not balanced to let the Rebels have Nebulons at 1. Sorry, mixed that up... not sure about the VSDs, I'll have a look at it. About the Nebulon B... if you move it into the same tech level as the Assault Frigate... it becomes obsolete. Who builds Nebulons if he has Assault Frigates (and don't come talking about 2000c difference ). That's why I still prefer the tech levels as they have been before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal Odo-ki Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 About the Nebulon B... if you move it into the same tech level as the Assault Frigate... it becomes obsolete. Who builds Nebulons if he has Assault Frigates (and don't come talking about 2000c difference ). That's why I still prefer the tech levels as they have been before. I think you may have given the Nebulon too much firepower. The Nebulon has 12 turbolasers and 12 anti-fighter lasers. Doesn't the current one in your mod have FOUR turbolaser hardpoints? Also, perhaps your price for the so-called Assault Frigate (in the RPG it's classed as a HEAVY CRUISER) is too low. It's built on an Old Republic Dreadnaught (ie: pre-Star Destroyer battleship) hull. The value of a Dreadnaught is 35,555,000cr, so that should be taken into consideration. Here are some stats: Dreadnaught: Shields 230, Hull 560 (DR50) 10 turbolasers (7d10x5) 20 light turbo quadlasers (4d10x5) 10 turbolasers (2d10x5) Assault Frigate: 15 turbolasers (7d10x5) 20 light turbo quadlasers (4d10x5) 15 lasers (4d10x2) As you can see, the Dreadnaught modified into an "Assault Frigate" packs even more firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketeer Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Would it be possible to give the nebulon a different purpose? The Assault frigate is obviously meant to engange large ships, how about making the nebulon more effective vs smaller vessels? I do remember some kind of point defense system on nebulons from other games ... Nebulons should be good at engaging tartans and pirate ships, able to serve as protection for larger ships. That way you would built assault frigates, and give them nebulon support. I kinda dont like how ships get obsolete once you reached the higher techs ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adonnay Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 O.K. That is understandable. But right now Rebels seems to me much stronger on the ground, because Plex soldiers are able to wipe out my Storptroopers as well. But as I said, it is rather the problem of the game than of this MOD. But it would be good if Adonnay could bring a little balance to the ground combat as well. Please, please. Alright... 1. I reduced the refire time and the splash radius as well as the splash damage of the PLEX soldiers. I also reduced their damage towards AT-AT armor but at the same time increased their projectile damage (overall they do less damage against stormtroopers as well as AT-ATs) 2. Artillery does considerably less damage against AT-ATs 3. Artillery splash damage halved as well as splash radius, direct hits (against vehicles mostly) still do the same damage (except the AT-AT, see pt. 2) Is that maybe helpful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal Odo-ki Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Is that maybe helpful? YES!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal Odo-ki Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Would it be possible to give the nebulon a different purpose? The Assault frigate is obviously meant to engange large ships, how about making the nebulon more effective vs smaller vessels? I do remember some kind of point defense system on nebulons from other games ... Nebulons should be good at engaging tartans and pirate ships, able to serve as protection for larger ships. That way you would built assault frigates, and give them nebulon support. I kinda dont like how ships get obsolete once you reached the higher techs ... The Nebulon was designed specifically to counter pirates, which means it's supposed to be able to blow away starfighters and corvettes. What makes the lower-tech ships obsolete (in the game, not by canon) is the hangar bays on the big ships plus their powerful shields. There's not much that can be done about that in the game. Not unless you want to go back and strip out all the nice fighter-related things that Adonnau has done for us. I sure as hell don't want that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adonnay Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 To quote your own chart: - Alliance Assault Frigate (Mark II): 15 laser cannons (2d10x5) [5 front, 5 left, 5 right], 20 quad laser cannons (4d10x5) [8 front, 6 left, 6 right], and 15 turbolasers (7d10x5) [5 front, 5 left, 5 right]. But the AF in game is obviously not the modified Dreadnaught... it looks totally different. Do you probably mean the Assault Frigate MK I as seen in the X-Wing games? I think you may have given the Nebulon too much firepower. The Nebulon has 12 turbolasers and 12 anti-fighter lasers. Doesn't the current one in your mod have FOUR turbolaser hardpoints? Yes, since the anti fighter lasers are so small and insignificant (especially with the last fighter improvement patch) I made them non-targetable and divided the 12 turbolasers onto 4 hardpoints instead of the 2 as before. This way the Nebulon can fight longer and is not as useless when it's forward turbolasers have been knocked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketeer Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 The Nebulon was designed specifically to counter pirates, which means it's supposed to be able to blow away starfighters and corvettes. What makes the lower-tech ships obsolete (in the game, not by canon) is the hangar bays on the big ships plus their powerful shields. There's not much that can be done about that in the game. Not unless you want to go back and strip out all the nice fighter-related things that Adonnau has done for us. I sure as hell don't want that. Actually i dont see it that way, there is nothing stopping us from increasing the nebulons accuracy vs corvettes and fighters, personally i would use them to protect my carriers and capital ships from tartans and bombers. And big ships have hangar bays and strong shields in canon too, yet the nebulon has a purpose there, so i really dont understand your point ... Edit: Actually i wouldnt even mind a slight increase in price for them once they get useful, as it is now i never even built them, cause by the time the first battles happen i usually already have assaults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal Odo-ki Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 But the AF in game is obviously not the modified Dreadnaught... it looks totally different. Do you probably mean the Assault Frigate MK I as seen in the X-Wing games? Yes. BTW, I believe that Petro came up with the new design for copyright reasons, same as they did with the Tartan. The Lancer and Mk. I are both copyright by WEG. The Broadside (and the variant -- mutant -- Marauder) were invented because some nitwit at Petro (and/or LA) wanted space artillery. Nevermind how it ruins the "feel" of the Star Wars universe. Yes, since the anti fighter lasers are so small and insignificant (especially with the last fighter improvement patch) I made them non-targetable and divided the 12 turbolasers onto 4 hardpoints instead of the 2 as before. This way the Nebulon can fight longer and is not as useless when it's forward turbolasers have been knocked out. Okay. Makes sense. Good call. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adonnay Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Why not take out the broadside and (missile) marauder altogether? Or does that gimp your savegame again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal Odo-ki Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Actually i dont see it that way, there is nothing stopping us from increasing the nebulons accuracy vs corvettes and fighters, personally i would use them to protect my carriers and capital ships from tartans and bombers. Edit: Actually i wouldnt even mind a slight increase in price for them once they get useful, as it is now i never even built them, cause by the time the first battles happen i usually already have assaults. Good ideas. Perhaps Adonnay will agree ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketeer Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Get rid of em id say . It really ruins the feel of starwars ... Sure it might be a problem for the campaign, but maybe we can work around that some other way, without having to implement weird units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketeer Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 We should really talk about what role the individual ships should have, and then compare it to how it is implemented currently. And if a ship really is painfully redundant take it out. A good example is the corellian corvette, between the corellian gunboat and the nebulon it really serves no purpose i can see. Edit: Imho its just in the game to get that 'aha i know that ship from the movies'-effect. It should be outclassed to the point of being redundant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal Odo-ki Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Why not take out the broadside and (missile) marauder altogether? Or does that gimp your savegame again While I'm in general favor of the idea, it might have adverse ramifications with regards to taking down level 4-5 stations. Still, if you want my opinion, I say "go for it" and remove them. I'd also like to remind you that I'm currently playing with a 200 space cap. (I neglected to send you my faction file.) I certainly do not recommend a cap lower than 150. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal Odo-ki Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 We should really talk about what role the individual ships should have, and then compare it to how it is implemented currently. And if a ship really is painfully redundant take it out. A good example is the corellian corvette, between the corellian gunboat and the nebulon it really serves no purpose i can see. At the very least, it's a low-level starbase spawn, and should remain in the game for that reason if nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketeer Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 While I'm in general favor of the idea, it might have adverse ramifications with regards to taking down level 4-5 stations. Still, if you want my opinion, I say "go for it" and remove them. I'd also like to remind you that I'm currently playing with a 200 space cap. (I neglected to send you my faction file.) I certainly do not recommend a cap lower than 150. I agree, lets set the cap to 200, and double the cap for capital ships. That way you still cant use more than 5-6 ISDs at once, but can use more smaller support ships instead. TBH most maps are just not able to handle 10 ISDs ... Imagine the enemy would bring 9 Mon cals + home one .... Space was never that crowded before . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal Odo-ki Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 I agree, lets set the cap to 200, and double the cap for capital ships. That way you still cant use more than 5-6 ISDs at once, but can use more smaller support ships instead. TBH most maps are just not able to handle 10 ISDs ... Imagine the enemy would bring 9 Mon cals + home one .... Space was never that crowded before . No no no no no. Do NOT change the cap for capital ships. A 200 cap allows for no more than 8 ISDs (11 VSDs) while 150 allows for 6 ISDs (8 VSDs) on the map at the same time (and no other ships). If you want more corvettes and frigates, tweak their numbers relative to the ISDs and VSDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketeer Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 I just thought we should keep the amount of capital ships as it is now, even if we increase the total cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adonnay Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 8 ISDs one one map is certainly too much. They would only hinder each other's movement and lag the game to a dia show. Not to speak of the 24 (!) squadrons active at the same time... and then add the 2nd party to it. Edit: Besides... you should be able to defeat a level 5 Station with 3 ISDs... if not two and keep in mind there's alot of planets who only have max station level of 3 or 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal Odo-ki Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 I just thought we should keep the amount of capital ships as it is now, even if we increase the total cap. Perhaps you missed why I raised it. The whole point was to be able to bring in more big ships so that the up-gunned and much tougher level 4-5 stations can be defeated. Keeping the same level of big ships as a 100 cap permits is simply inadequate to take down anything larger than a level 3 station. I tried, over and over. I achieved a truly pyrrhic victory at a 150 cap, and a 200 cap was fine. With the redone tech levels (putting the VSD back down to level 3), a 150 cap might be acceptable. But 100? Most assuredly not. That's just 4 ISDs, or 5 VSDs, or 6 Acclamators. 5 VSDs might, on a map with no asteroids, take on a level 4 station. Maybe. But since all the maps I've had to fight on have been thoroughly infested with asteroids in a literal minefield around the starbase, that makes using such few ships an exercise in masochism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal Odo-ki Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Edit: Besides... you should be able to defeat a level 5 Station with 3 ISDs... if not two and keep in mind there's alot of planets who only have max station level of 3 or 4. A level 5 station, plus one defending ISD, 1 Assault frigate, 4 Nebulons, and about a half-dozen corvettes wiped out a 242-point Imperial fleet (which had 3 VSDs, 4 Broadsides, and 9 Acclamators). I was able to kill the hangars on the station and ISD, and kill the Assault frigate and the Nebulons. That was all. The enemy station and ISD survived almost unscathed. And that was using a 200 cap. I think you are seriously underestimating the power of the station (and perhaps the ISD). I'm also playing on HARD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adonnay Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 Why did you have a defending ISD? And no, I'm playing skirmishes alot (of course on hard) and I've taken down level 5 stations with less units, of course after the defenders were eliminated. I wouldn't attack the station AND its defenders at once. And with the new patch you would have had 9 bomber squadrons (with 18 in reserve) with the Acclamators. Did you test the same battle with the new fighter changes? And how do you think will undefended level 3 or 4 stations do with your cap? You can overrun them with no great effort. We just made them that tough with the purpose that conquering a planet defended by a level 4 or 5 station IS masochism unless bringing the heavy guns. We can however tune down the damage of the stations slightly so they can take alot of damage but don't deal as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tal Odo-ki Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Why did you have a defending ISD? Because that's the way the mission was. I kept having to reload the game until it finally put the "rebel" (traitor) ISD in a system other than the one with the level 5 station. There was no way I was going to win that mission if I had to face the ISD and a level 5 station. Did you test the same battle with the new fighter changes? Of course. I thought I'd made clear a while ago that I am using the very latest posted version of your mod, plus my changes on top of that. And how do you think will undefended level 3 or 4 stations do with your cap? You can overrun them with no great effort. We just made them that tough with the purpose that conquering a planet defended by a level 4 or 5 station IS masochism unless bringing the heavy guns. We can however tune down the damage of the stations slightly so they can take alot of damage but don't deal as much. I think a cap of 150 is fine for a level 3. It may even be enough for a L4. It isn't for a L5, unless you have ISDs or Mon Cals on your own side. I prefer keeping the stations as you have them and raising the cap. If you don't like 200, I think 150 (absolute bare minimum) or 170-180 may be okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCorris Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Why did you have a defending ISD? i think he was playing the campaign when u have to get one fo the moff's or whatever, i ahve only just played it and forgotten already edit: nm he beat me to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koci Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Just one thing. Please, don't remove ships from game, there is not too much units :-) Waiting for next official mod release :-) Good job, no doubt. Koci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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