[MOD] EAW: Open Conflict

[DCorris]

Just one thing.

 

Please, don't remove ships from game, there is not too much units :-)

Waiting for next official mod release :-)

Good job, no doubt.

 

 

Koci

 

some units have been removed and some have been added, on the point of the space artillery, i think it should be removed, in my opinion it can ruin the space battles sometimes, specially as the rebels when u bring in fighters and they get blown up in the first few seconds sometimes

[rocketeer]

@Adonnay: But thats exactly what i said ... i said if we raise the space cap so that you can defeat lvl 5 stations in campaign without tech lvl 5 we would have to double the cap need of capital ships, so that you cant have more then 5 of them. Because like you said 3 ISDs will wipe the floor with a lvl 5 station already.

 

Edit: Guess my line "double the cap for capital ships" was misleading, i meant double the cap cost of them. If we double the space cap, and also double the capital ships cap cost, its the same as before just that you can bring 2x as many frigates and stuff. Its less work than halfing every units cap but capital ships, and you dont get rounding problems with small cap costs.

 

Edit2: Oh, btw tal, engaging a ISD + lvl 5 station + company should lead to a massacre. How long would a Acclamator or even a Victory survive if a ISD focuses its fire on it? Even if a fleet of them takes it down you should loose a great many ships imho. Increasing the cap to much could lead to 'zerging', where you just take for example 10 Victories and 'roll' over the enemy.

[Adonnay]

Because that's the way the mission was. I kept having to reload the game until it finally put the "rebel" (traitor) ISD in a system other than the one with the level 5 station. There was no way I was going to win that mission if I had to face the ISD and a level 5 station.

Okay, I haven't played the empire campaign yet...

 

Of course. I thought I'd made clear a while ago that I am using the very latest posted version of your mod, plus my changes on top of that.

Sorry if I ask a few things twice or even more often... there's so many posts here that contain ideas, criticism, suggestions and bug reports that I have to keep track of that I simply don't know anymore what you wrote two pages ago without having to look.

 

I think a cap of 150 is fine for a level 3. It may even be enough for a L4. It isn't for a L5, unless you have ISDs or Mon Cals on your own side. I prefer keeping the stations as you have them and raising the cap. If you don't like 200, I think 150 (absolute bare minimum) or 170-180 may be okay.

I seriously begin to wonder why you have that much of a trouble against stations. While I understand that a level 5 station + an ISD is pretty much suicide without your own ISDs I can't understand how a cap of 100 poses any problems for an undefended level 5 station. I have those all the time in skirmish and mostly beat them with two Liberties and some small stuff like fighters. In addition the mission you mention happens in the campaign, which you can't really compare to the GC gameplay since the encounters and tech levels are predefined. So you might encounter stations or fleets which you wouldn't attack in GC map until you had some tech 5 ships. So while your cap might help those campaign missions (which it surely does) I am pretty sure that it hurts the balance in regular GC maps, especially against space stations. I want the player to feel save with a level 4+ station unless the enemy comes with a really big fleet, accompanied by a hero or two.

 

Another goal I had with redefining the population cap was a higher emphasis on tactics rather than brute force. Confronting the enemy with 8+ ISDs doesn't require any tactics. You go full speed ahead and post them around the base... not to speak of the map limitations which simply don't allow for 8 ISDs, not for 13 Acclamators, hell even 10 Acclamators are too much.

 

Long story short... I will set up a testmap with exactly your fleets and try it myself.

[Tal Odo-ki]

Edit: Guess my line "double the cap for capital ships" was misleading, i meant double the cap cost of them.

I understood you perfectly. I just vehemently disagree.

[rocketeer]

I understood you perfectly. I just vehemently disagree.

 

Whats so hard to understand about 8 capital ships per side being to much to handle for the maps?

 

Edit: On most maps the starting area is not even big enough for such a fleet, not to mention the rest of the map, i already had ships spawning outside the grid and in nebulas/asteroid fields when messing with space cap.

[Tal Odo-ki]

I seriously begin to wonder why you have that much of a trouble against stations. While I understand that a level 5 station + an ISD is pretty much suicide without your own ISDs I can't understand how a cap of 100 poses any problems for an undefended level 5 station.

The planet is Fresia. It has a L5 station, surrounded by an asteroid "minefield", and there's an ion gun on the planet. You [/i]never[/i] fight a L4 or 5 station in the Imperial campaign that is "undefended". There is always a Rebel fleet of some size in the system, plus the ion gun, plus the station's own spawns. With the greatly added complication of the asteroids creating narrow chokepoints (only the width of a VSD), it's a hell of a map.

 

I imagine that a truly undefended L5 station might be the "easy" picking you seem to think it is, but I assure you that is not what I'm seeing in my actual game.

 

Perhaps if you'd played the campaigns (like I'm doing) before trying GC you'd understand better. It's quite a different experience when you are at tech 2 and your opponent is at tech 4. I bet that never happens in GC.

[Tal Odo-ki]

Whats so hard to understand about 8 capital ships per side being to much to handle for the maps?

 

Edit: On most maps the starting area is not even big enough for such a fleet, not to mention the rest of the map, i already had ships spawning outside the grid and in nebulas/asteroid fields when messing with space cap.

Perhaps the cap size of the ISD, specifically, is what the problem is. I have no issues with map room for a dozen mixed VSDs and Acclamators. But ISDs are so much larger. If you scale the ISD to the VSD, the cap size should be 32. That would limit the ISDs to 6 with a cap of 200. That's not unreasonable at all.

[rocketeer]

Yep but thats because of the scripted events in the campaign, and because of the canon changes we did. We simply cannot balance the mod around freestyly game and a scripted storyline whose events and missions where never meant to take into account our changes. We should change the campaign to fit the mod, not change the mod to fit the campaign. Of course thats just imho.

[Tal Odo-ki]

Yep but thats because of the scripted events in the campaign, and because of the canon changes we did. We simply cannot balance the mod around freestyly game and a scripted storyline whose events and missions where never meant to take into account our changes. We should change the campaign to fit the mod, not change the mod to fit the campaign. Of course thats just imho.

It's not possible to change the campaign. Period.

 

@Adonnay, how do I change the cap size of a ship? I'd like to make the ISDs 32 instead of 25.

[Adonnay]

Yep but thats because of the scripted events in the campaign, and because of the canon changes we did. We simply cannot balance the mod around freestyly game and a scripted storyline whose events and missions where never meant to take into account our changes. We should change the campaign to fit the mod, not change the mod to fit the campaign. Of course thats just imho.

I agree... the changes we made are very good concerning the GC gameplay and skirmish battles (anc since that's the gameplay that has the most replay-value it's the most important to me). We have yet to see how we can modify the campaign to reduce the difficulty of certain missions.

 

Perhaps if you'd played the campaigns (like I'm doing) before trying GC you'd understand better. It's quite a different experience when you are at tech 2 and your opponent is at tech 4. I bet that never happens in GC

I did play the rebel campaign before I started to play GC, not that it matters much, since I can't start and play a new campaign everytime I change something or publish a new version or the time between updates would not be a day (sometimes hours) but several days, maybe even weeks. I really don't know what that remark was for...

 

<Population_Value>25</Population_Value> is what you are looking for.

[Koci]

some units have been removed and some have been added, on the point of the space artillery, i think it should be removed, in my opinion it can ruin the space battles sometimes, specially as the rebels when u bring in fighters and they get blown up in the first few seconds sometimes

 

Only Venator is added, but I understand Your point, and I know that

"space artillery" ships are weak and easy to destroy, so are not problem

IMHO. I play only Galactic Conqest, and I like more units, not less :-)

 

Best Regards

 

Koci

[Tal Odo-ki]

I did play the rebel campaign before I started to play GC, not that it matters much, since I can't start and play a new campaign everytime I change something or publish a new version or the time between updates would not be a day (sometimes hours) but several days, maybe even weeks. I really don't know what that remark was for...

DCorris is correct that the SP campaigns give you the special ships you need to win. So the mod, as it currently is, does not break the SP campaigns (except for that one mission where I simply could not defeat a L4 station with the 100 cap).

 

My remark was not intended to be insulting. It was merely that had you played BOTH campaigns you'd've seen that at least one mission requires you to face obstacles that might not be surmountable given a low unit cap.

 

<Population_Value>25</Population_Value> is what you are looking for.

Thank you.

 

I like the way the game plays with a 200 cap and 32 for the ISD. Seems about right. If you still think 200 is too much, 180 is a workable value.

 

EDIT: the map scale size of the ISD seems correct now that I look at it again in my current battle. I must have had a bad perspective angle on it in the last battle.

[shadoe]

I checked the modified fighter complements and woud like to point out a few thing.

First, u gave the ISD 2 reserve TIE scouts squadrons, wich is surely wrong. The fighter complement of ISDs should be: 2 Fighter/1 Bomber spawned with 2 Fighter/1 Scout in reserve.

 

Second, the big Mon Cal Cruisers have now 1 Xwing/1 Ywing spawned with 3 Xwing/1 Ywing reserve. 3 Xwing squads as reserve seem too much, that giving the Mon Cal the same fighter numbers as the ISD with the rebel fighters being better. Plus the big Mon Cal should also have A-wings, like the MC80. I think 1 Xwing/1 Ywing/1 Awing spawned with 1 Xwing in reserve would be reasonable. In GC, where rebels can build Fighter Squadrons separate from the Capital ships, there is the possibility of the Empire side being overwhelmed by fighters if the rebel cap ships fighter complement ios equal to those of the Empire.

 

Third, i know about the Acclamators modified as fighter carriers, but having more fighters than an ISD???

 

The other ships are very good now in terms of the fighter complement.

 

On the other hand, i think the prices and population numbers for the fighter squads are too low. In skirmish I think fighters only can overwhelm a player going for cap ships.

[Adonnay]

A thing I overlooked in my last patch is that stations still launch literally hundreds of fighters (namely 10 X-Wing squadrons alone... ).

 

And TIE Bombers still die too fast to station and capital ship fire. Because of their relative low speed they are in the enemies firing arc for a long time... and without the shields that help the Y-Wings survive they fall like flies. While that may be right as we all know they are made of paper... it hurts the balance quite severly. The Rebels have the much tougher Y-Wings plus the X-Wings launching torpedoes too. The Empire has those throw-away TIE Bombers and no backup fighter-bomber. In addition the Empire doesn't even have more fighters than the rebels... watching the movies and playing the games I got the impression that one Star Destroyer could field much more fighters than the average rebel cruiser but that the rebel ships were technically superior. We all know the pictures of the Battle of Endor where a handful of rebel fighters get swarmed by a few dozen TIEs. Same in the games... as a rebel you were always outnumbered... but you only needed two shots for a TIE fighter.

 

Now I'm looking at the squadron numbers. The rebels have the same amount of fighters... and that doesn't work in the game where each side has the same cap. So what can we do to grant the TIE Bombers the same suvivability than those Y-Wings without starting to feel wrong...

[Tal Odo-ki]

I checked the modified fighter complements and woud like to point out a few thing.

First, u gave the ISD 2 reserve TIE scouts squadrons, wich is surely wrong. The fighter complement of ISDs should be: 2 Fighter/1 Bomber spawned with 2 Fighter/1 Scout in reserve.

 

Second, the big Mon Cal Cruisers have now 1 Xwing/1 Ywing spawned with 3 Xwing/1 Ywing reserve. 3 Xwing squads as reserve seem too much, that giving the Mon Cal the same fighter numbers as the ISD with the rebel fighters being better. Plus the big Mon Cal should also have A-wings, like the MC80. I think 1 Xwing/1 Ywing/1 Awing spawned with 1 Xwing in reserve would be reasonable. In GC, where rebels can build Fighter Squadrons separate from the Capital ships, there is the possibility of the Empire side being overwhelmed by fighters if the rebel cap ships fighter complement ios equal to those of the Empire.

I fixed all the issues you just mentioned in the files that I sent to Adonnay over 4 hours ago. hehe

[Adonnay]

I checked the modified fighter complements and woud like to point out a few thing.

First, u gave the ISD 2 reserve TIE scouts squadrons, wich is surely wrong. The fighter complement of ISDs should be: 2 Fighter/1 Bomber spawned with 2 Fighter/1 Scout in reserve.

Keep in mind that the Scout squadrons only consist of 3 units.

 

Second, the big Mon Cal Cruisers have now 1 Xwing/1 Ywing spawned with 3 Xwing/1 Ywing reserve. 3 Xwing squads as reserve seem too much, that giving the Mon Cal the same fighter numbers as the ISD with the rebel fighters being better. Plus the big Mon Cal should also have A-wings, like the MC80. I think 1 Xwing/1 Ywing/1 Awing spawned with 1 Xwing in reserve would be reasonable. In GC, where rebels can build Fighter Squadrons separate from the Capital ships, there is the possibility of the Empire side being overwhelmed by fighters if the rebel cap ships fighter complement ios equal to those of the Empire.

You're right... the Liberty should get A-Wings as well.

 

Third, i know about the Acclamators modified as fighter carriers, but having more fighters than an ISD???

I got those numbers from Tal, and I'm pretty sure they're right. The ISD was never meant to be a carrier or transporter whereas the Acclamator surely was (transporter). And when its bays were refitted to carry fighters it could carry more squadrons than the ISD, yes.

 

On the other hand, i think the prices and population numbers for the fighter squads are too low. In skirmish I think fighters only can overwhelm a player going for cap ships.

I think that is a viable tactic... no one should go for only capships now. Always make sure you have something to counter large fighter forces. Besides I made the Y-Wings a little too tough, they will be weakened again in the next release.

[Tal Odo-ki]

A thing I overlooked in my last patch is that stations still launch literally hundreds of fighters (namely 10 X-Wing squadrons alone... ).

Duh. I think you may now begin to understand why I was getting my ass kicked by those L4 & 5 stations. By the time I crushed the hangar and swatted the pesky flies, they'd already crippled/crushed my fleet. What's left is not fit to face the station's guns.

 

{snip}

 

So what can we do to grant the TIE Bombers the same suvivability than those Y-Wings without starting to feel wrong...

Nothing. Leave them alone, please. They aren't supposed to be able to survive as well. They are supposed to be expendable. My TIEs have been dying all day today. So what? I expect them to. They are still useful enough just as they are. IMO.

[Adonnay]

I fixed all the issues you just mentioned in the files that I sent to Adonnay over 4 hours ago. hehe

While I surely appreciate you sending me patched up files... you should also include what you have changed. I wasn't sleeping the last few hours and made a few changes myself... and to find the changes you made to merge them with my file I would have to go through your file line by line (besides you included a new bug yourself with the Liberty )

 

<Reserve_Spawned_Units_Tech_0>A_Wing_Garrison_Squadron, 0</Starting_Spawned_Units_Tech_0>

This should be

<Reserve_Spawned_Units_Tech_0>A_Wing_Garrison_Squadron, 0</Reserve_Spawned_Units_Tech_0> of course... change that in your file or your liberties won't spawn A-Wings

 

Edit: Nonsense... your Liberty will spawn A-Wings and work as it should (since you don't have reservers anyway). But it's a bug nonetheless

[Tal Odo-ki]

I got those numbers from Tal, and I'm pretty sure they're right. The ISD was never meant to be a carrier or transporter whereas the Acclamator surely was (transporter). And when its bays were refitted to carry fighters it could carry more squadrons than the ISD, yes.

Thank you.

[Tal Odo-ki]

While I surely appreciate you sending me patched up files... you should also include what you have changed. I wasn't sleeping the last few hours and made a few changes myself... and to find the changes you made to merge them with my file I would have to go through your file line by line (besides you included a new bug yourself with the Liberty )

 

<Reserve_Spawned_Units_Tech_0>A_Wing_Garrison_Squadron, 0</Starting_Spawned_Units_Tech_0>

This should be

<Reserve_Spawned_Units_Tech_0>A_Wing_Garrison_Squadron, 0</Reserve_Spawned_Units_Tech_0> of course... change that in your file or your liberties won't spawn A-Wings

Thanks for pointing that out. Just fixed it. I had done a sloppy cut & paste.

 

As for not sending you a list of changes, I didn't write each one down as I made them. I (perhaps wrongly) assumed you had a differential-view utility, as I do, for examining pairs of text files.

[Adonnay]

No I havent... next time send that too

[Tal Odo-ki]

No I havent... next time send that too

Google for "diff utilities". I'll try to write up a list of edits I've made and post them here. Or would you rather I send you the latest versions of my files (again)?

[Adonnay]

If the list gets too long I'd prefer a mail. But it's up to you.

[Tal Odo-ki]

• Space cap is set to 200.
  
• ISD is at tech 4, and is pop cap size 32. Spawns 2 TIE, 1 TIE bomber, and 1 TIE scout, with 2 TIE in reserve.
  
• Mon Cal ships (all) are at tech 4. "RV_moncalcruiser.ALO" (Liberty?) spawns 1 X, 1 Y, & 1 A wing, as does "RV_HOMEONE.ALO" (MC80?). The real Home One carries many more fighters than the MC80 or Liberty, but I have not touched any of the Unique units.
  
• Venator is tech 3 (spawns untouched).
  
• Nebulon is tech 2 (spawns untouched).
  
• Assault Frigate is tech 2.
  
• VSD is tech 3, spawns 1 TIE plus 1 reserve TIE.
  
• Acclamator is tech 2, spawns 1 TIE & 1 TIE bomber, plus 4 TIE and 2 bombers in reserve.
  
• Interdictor is tech 4, spawns 1 TIE plus 1 reserve TIE.
  
• Corellian Gunship is tech 1.

I think that's all of it.

[rocketeer]

Did you change the nebulon aswell to make it more useful vs smaller ships? Otherwise it would be kinda obsolete, given its even on the same techlvl as the assault. And did you adjust the population values of the other capital ships aswell? Even if rebels have slightly less problems with lots of capital ships on the same map it wouldnt be fair if they could field more mon cals than the empire could field ISDs, besides it would feel weird if the rebels had the superior numbers on capital ships in spacebattles ...

 

Edit: Venator also should have bigger pop value, not cause its very strong, but because the gameengine doesnt seem to handle lots of fighters/bombers very well. I think 10 Venators would be a problem, depending on what the enemy fields into the battle.