[MOD] EAW: Open Conflict

[rocketeer]

According to cap values, 3 Nebulons are supposedly equal to 2 Acclamators. I'm not quite so sure that it's balanced. I have a suspicion that 2 Acclamators would chew up 3 Nebulons without much trouble. Does anyone share my concern?

 

3 Nebulons should and would loose to 2 acclamtor, not even sure they could deal reliably with a single one ... Thats what i talked about when i said we have to take a look at the nebulon, it needs a purpose, and engaging victory cruisers or acclamators definitly is not its purpose.

 

If im not wrong the nebulon should be the newest ship of its sizaclass by far in the game, how about giving it superior accuracy to show this?

[Adonnay]

Okay, I'll give you a reason to not use all 5 tech levels: the ability to limit a game to tech 4 at creation so that you never have to deal with the DS.

Umm... that actually is a very good reason indeed.

[rocketeer]

Umm... that actually is a very good reason indeed.

 

Umh how do you do that? I only know the option to set the starting techlvl ...

[Tal Odo-ki]

Sorry i just cant agree to that, at lvl 1 the rebels get the nebulon and the empire the acclamator, so rebels loose.

"Lose", not "loose". And you're wrong. I am seriously kicking the Empire's butt in my Rebel GC game, having changed the files according to shadoe's idea. I imagine that if I was playing the Empire, I'd seriously kick the Rebel's butt. The game's AI is very weak in GC. Much more so than in the SP campaign. Starting off with just one planet allows a human player a tremendous advantage. The AI expands as fast as you do (perhaps even faster), but the AI has no idea how to build up planets or manage its economy. I am just on Day 9, just advanced to tech 2, and on day 8 I took out the AI's L1 Kessel station with 8 Nebulon-Bs (plus the 2 crappy Corvettes you are given at the start).

 

You missed the entire point of shadoe's post. The Rebels, by canon, use jump-capable fighters. LOTS of them. The Empire relies upon fighters without hyperdrives. So guess which side should have (and needs) carriers? It also makes sense to give the Empire the Venators, since the mothballed fleet was under Imperial control (Rebels had no access to the ships, nor the plans). The only reason the Venator is in the game is that Petro wanted a carrier and couldn't use the Imperial Escort Carrier because it's copyrighted by WEG or WotC. So they stuck in something that LA does own the copyright to.

 

Regarding Rebel ships being vulnerable to fighters, you are supposed to build your own for defense. If you don't, tough luck. If you lose it's your fault for not doing proper strategic planning as the Rebels. The bulk of the Alliance fleet was fighters, not capital ships. Shadoe's proposal is the closest to canon that I've seen yet, in terms of how it will "force" you to play the game. The game should play differently, and feel different, as the Rebels than the Empire. Without shadoe's new tree, both sides more or less can use the same strategy to win. IMO, that's poor game design, and not at all in keeping with the proper "feel" of Star Wars.

 

Before you condemn an idea out of hand, try it first. I am. I'm testing it today. Or at least give carefully thought-out and detailed reasons why you feel the changes may be bad -- not a knee-jerk reaction, please.

[Tal Odo-ki]

Umh how do you do that? I only know the option to set the starting techlvl ...

There's an "Advanced" options button on the screen where you select the map.

[wolfshadow]

Myself, I agree with Tal. I think that the Rebel fighters SHOULD have a noticible superiority. A squadron of X-wings should be able to mop the floor with 2 or even 3 TIE squadrons. And I like the idea of having a Carrier for the Empire that lauches BIG waves of TIEs.

 

Maybe even add anoother Hero unit that has a Venator with TIE advanced Squadrons instead fo TIE squadrons. Thrawn anyone? Wasn't he in charge of one of the main R&D facilites?

[rocketeer]

There's an "Advanced" options button on the screen where you select the map.

Thx, found it, cant believe i missed it the whole time. Considering that i agree to move the capital ships down to lvl 4.

 

And your incorrect on the rebels not using carriers, they use them for the same reasons carriers get used in this day and age, to have mobile bases of operation deep in enemy territory. While rebel fighters do have hyperdrives they lack pretty much everything else needed for remote operations. Besides they dont have such a great range anyway, and planet hopping is not always advisable(especially for lots of fighters).

 

Im not dismissing this ot of hand, but you cant balance this mod on the AI being stupid. Maybe some people play it on network, and looking at the techtree i dont think its fair.

 

Edit: And tal, please dont use a single argument of me to ridicule my whole post, thats not nice, i know you tend to jump on the single wrong bit in any post of mine and ignore the rest, but just think a moment on those points i try to make. But atleast you can correct my english if all else fails

 

And btw what point exactly where you tring to make by pointing out that you can kill a lvl 1 station with 8 nebulons? What has that to do with the points i raised at all? If the empire player spends the same amount of credits on acclamators that you spend on nebulons he will have a force you cant compare too.

[Tal Odo-ki]

And your incorrect on the rebels not using carriers, they use them for the same reasons carriers get used in this day and age, to have mobile bases of operation deep in enemy territory.

The Rebels didn't do deep ops with carriers. They never had that much concentrated firepower (nor that type of ship), not until they massed their few Mon Cals for Endor. A Rebel deep op was conducted by a group centered around a Nebulon. The Nebulon has everything needed to service 2 squadrons (I ran a multi-year RPG campaign that revolved around a Rebel-controlled Nebulon, so I am very familiar with them), and Rebel ops were kept intentional small-scale so as to not trigger a massive Imperial reaction. It's the concept of "death by a thousand small cuts". And when the Rebels needed a bigger, or better base, they'd set one up on a moon or asteroid far away from any Imperial space traffic.

[Adonnay]

*sigh*

Is anyone willing to do the balancing part for me? I'm kinda growing tired of it... everytime when I think we got some kind of balance someone throws everything overboard and starts from scratch (almost). The Venator was given to the rebels almost from the beginning days of this mod. A few people asked why and they were content with the answer I gave them. Everyone seemed to agree (or just didn't object). Now... weeks after the first release you suddenly think the Venator is of course an Empire ship and you make it sound as if you said that all the time and I just didn't listen. I don't want to hinder your ambitions in improving this mod or anything... I just would like someone to help me doing those "five-times-a-day" changes you guys come up with that don't really need me to implement.

[rocketeer]

And just to add the last thing i forgot, the venator fits exactly between the Victory and ISD, not before the victory. And the empire shouldnt even use Victory IIs, they should use Victory Is, because the victory II rarely got produced ... There is just so much wrong with the way the game is set, i just dont feel like making it any worse. And your argument that the rebels would have no access to the Venator blueprint is farfetched at best. Its not a top secret empire project like the deathstar, or even a regular secured blueprint like the ISD. The ship got used and built in regular times in a democracy, at the very least the jedi order(remember how yoda inspected the clonetroopers, they did have power over this stuff back then) and half the senat would have had access to it. Its just silly to assume that highranking generals and politions wouldnt have access to this kind of information, who was informed, only the cancelor? Even then its fair to assume that it would have been easier to get teh blueprint of such a old design, then the blueprints of the deathstar.

[Tal Odo-ki]

And btw what point exactly where you tring to make by pointing out that you can kill a lvl 1 station with 8 nebulons? What has that to do with the points i raised at all? If the empire player spends the same amount of credits on acclamators that you spend on nebulons he will have a force you cant compare too.

Point? The AI Empire has not built any level 2 stations. None. Stupid AI.

 

As for Acclamators being better than an equal value of Nebulons, I agree. I even posted about it earlier today. In case you haven't noticed yet, it will be almost impossible to perfectly balance this game. If the two sides had equal ships the game would actually be boring. The trick is to give each side a way to counter the other without giving them both equal ships. The game is already (more or less) balanced on the ground, and each side is handled very differently than the other side. As wolfshadow points out, the way to make the Rebels balance the Empire is to give them better (and cheaper) fighters. According to canon, their fighters cost twice as much as Imperial fighters, but that's because of the hyperdrive (and to a lesser extent, the shields). If the Rebels have to pay the same (or more) for their fighters, they will be totally screwed. Which is what should have happened if Star Wars had been realistic, and not a space fantasy.

 

If Palpatine had an entire "legion" of his best stormtroopers guarding the shield at Endor, why weren't they in a thick mass blocking any possible approach to either entrance? Because it would make it impossible for the "heroes" to win, and thus make for a "pitiful" story -- to use Palpatine's adjective. Imagine trying to play the GC game if the only planets you control are Dantooine, Yavin, and Hoth, your tech is 1, and the Empire controls almost every other planet and their tech is 4. You lose. But I digress (badly). Sorry. The point is that to create a fun game we do have to violate canon a bit and give the Rebels a break. The best way to do that is give them cheap fighters (low cost and low cap).

[rocketeer]

The Rebels didn't do deep ops with carriers. They never had that much concentrated firepower (nor that type of ship), not until they massed their few Mon Cals for Endor. A Rebel deep op was conducted by a group centered around a Nebulon. The Nebulon has everything needed to service 2 squadrons (I ran a multi-year RPG campaign that revolved around a Rebel-controlled Nebulon, so I am very familiar with them), and Rebel ops were kept intentional small-scale so as to not trigger a massive Imperial reaction. It's the concept of "death by a thousand small cuts". And when the Rebels needed a bigger, or better base, they'd set one up on a moon or asteroid far away from any Imperial space traffic.

 

Well welcome to this game then, if you havnt noticed yet the rebellion is not the same as it was in the movies at this time. Its in a all out, head to head war, with the empire. Complete with frontlines, and rebellion landforces battling over worlds like coruscant. This is not the same timeline as the movies, it doesnt even have the same startoff point. Yep they never did that in the movies, but in a fullblown war like this you cant assume they would use the same tactics as in a canon situation. It just wouldnt make sense.

 

Rebels are not the underdog in this game, they have just as many planets and starships as the empire. They even have the same amount of groundforces, and can produce them just as fast as the empire. The mon cals are not suited to carrier duty, and the strong focus the rebels have on fighters kinda demands a dedicated carrier, that is capable on tending the ships and pilots on longer campaigns.

[Tal Odo-ki]

Is anyone willing to do the balancing part for me?

I thought I was already doing that, or at least testing ideas.

[rocketeer]

@Tal:

 

You completly missed my point that this is not only a single player game. If i would play this over network with my friend and he was rebels he would get his ass handed to him, because i would built lvl 2 stations, and tear down his lvl 2 stations with my acclamators.

 

I know perfect balance is not doable, but why implent something which is so obviously unfair?

 

Edit: And what about putting the venator against the assault frigate? You didnt say anything about that either ... Is that ok too? Or putting the mc80 against victory cruiser? Not even to mention that its not possible on smaller maps, cause the mc80 can only be built at certain planets yet he victory everywhere. So on small maps it might come to the rebels having to fight venators and victorys with assault frigates ... And all you have to say is perfect balance is not doable?

 

Edit2: And what would we do if EA adesses the AI being so painfully stupid in a later patch? Redo the techtree because the AI can suddenly take advantage of the imbalances we implemented?

[rocketeer]

The only way i see that makes this doable is redoing the strenght of the ships. Make the venator weaker than the assault mk II(cause he also has fighters), weaken the MC80 down to the lvl of the Victory and make it a frigate instead of a capital ship(ingame terms using here, what i mean is that it doesnt require planets like kuat or mon cal to built), and change the nebulon so that it can handle Acclamators, atleast if using superior numbers.

 

But i dont think thats what we wanted when we changed the ships to the way they are now. After all we changed them to the way they are now using your data.

[Koci]

Just asking, we have this "tech tree" now ? :

------------------------------------

Level 1:

Empire - Acclamator (balanced frigate),tartan

Rebel - Nebulon B (balanced frigate), corellian corvette, corellian gunship

 

Level2:

Empire -Venator (carrier)

Rebel -Assault Frigate Mk2 (battlecruiser)

 

Level3:

Empire - VSD (battlecruiser)

Rebel - MC80 (battlecruiser)

 

Level4:

Empire - ISD (Battleship)

Rebel - Liberty (Battleship)

------------------------------------

 

All this problems with balance are simple to explain, it depends which side

You play now :-) This "tech tree" looks good IMHO but............

Venator should be Rebels, Assault Frigate Mk2 is a crap (or something :-)

only one thing is better for Rebels - All power to shields ability - it works fine and is much usefull than "Maximum firepower" for Empire. I like this mod as is now.... But now I don't know, what we have now...:

 

Adonnay wrote for Tal:

 

You interpret to much into those missing changes... I was just in a hurry and wanted to get the upload done before I had to make some errands

So yes, all your points are correct and will be fixed while I type this......

 

SO, we have newest version (than 0.10) under Adonnay sig, or not ?

 

Sorry, my english is pretty bad, so mayby I don't understand.....

 

Best Regards

 

Koci

[Tal Odo-ki]

Wow, I'm amazed at how worked up you are over what basically amounts to moving the Venator from the Rebel side to the Imperial side (and lowering it a level in tech). The only other change is that the MC80 is lowered to tech 3. I find it odd that you think lowering the MC80 makes the Rebel side less balanced. You weren't complaining about it versus the VSD when the MC80 was still tech 4. Would you feel better if the VSD was tech 2 and the (Imperial) Venator was tech 3?

[rocketeer]

Btw i really think this game should have be placed after the movies in the timeline, we would have much more interesting ships, and would be much more free in implementing them. The whole GC would even make sense in that case ... And while im complaining i might aswell also complain about the missing modding tools, we cant even fix the mess they created .

[Tal Odo-ki]

The only way i see that makes this doable is redoing the strenght of the ships. Make the venator weaker than the assault mk II(cause he also has fighters), weaken the MC80 down to the lvl of the Victory and make it a frigate instead of a capital ship(ingame terms using here, what i mean is that it doesnt require planets like kuat or mon cal to built), and change the nebulon so that it can handle Acclamators, atleast if using superior numbers.

If you're trying to balance the sides, making the MC80 weaker is not a good idea. And the Acclamator is over double the length (and a great many times the volume) of the Nebulon. The only way to balance the Nebulon versus the Acclamator is make the Nebulon even cheaper compared to the Acclamator.

 

Well, there is one other way. Your idea. Throw canon completely out the window and give each ship whatever numbers makes you feel good.

[SithJedi]

this mod is the best right now its realy good

[Tal Odo-ki]

Rocketeer, the problem is that LucasArts does not have the copyright to most of the ships in the EU, especially those in the New Republic era. I agree that for purposes of this style game, that is the perfect era. You have two large powers (the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant) each fighting across vast areas of space. Until such time as proper modding tools are released, and/or someone mods in those ships, we won't see such a mod. That is the type of game that this should have been.

[rocketeer]

Wow, I'm amazed at how worked up you are over what basically amounts to moving the Venator from the Rebel side to the Imperial side (and lowering it a level in tech). The only other change is that the MC80 is lowered to tech 3. I find it odd that you think lowering the MC80 makes the Rebel side less balanced. You weren't complaining about it versus the VSD when the MC80 was still tech 4. Would you feel better if the VSD was tech 2 and the (Imperial) Venator was tech 3?

 

It seems you didnt understand his changes fully, he also lowered the techlvl of the acclamator by 1 and lowered the tech lvl of the venator, now on imperial side by 1 too. And i was complaing that its unbalanced to pair the mc80 against the victory because the mc80 should be much more powerful. You know im actually trying to balance it for both sides, not just cheering for one.

 

Edit: Oh and we both now that it doesnt make sense for the victory having a higher tech lvl as the venator, i dont have to tell you that.

[rocketeer]

Tal: Im out of this, you propose a systems for which to work we would have to throw canon completly out of the window, yet i am the one wanting it. This is just stupid and im not going to continue this discussion. This is just not going to work without changes to the units in a way i dont want.

 

Jusr reread shadoes post and tell me how this is supposed to work the way the units are now? I like the way the units are now, minor change here and there, yes but not a complete redo like this would require.

 

Dont you see that this would create situations like in the campaign you had? You would basicly have to fight agaisnt a foe with higher techlvl. Nebulons vs acclamators, assault frigates vs venators, and then we get the 180° turn with Victory vs MC80. But tbh how is the rebel player supposed to survive that long?

 

Anyway im out of this, have a nice day.

[Tal Odo-ki]

Rocketeer, I think you've forgotten what the unmodded game looks like:

 

Empire -

Tech 1: Acclamator, Tartan

Tech 2: VSD, Broadside

Tech 3: no new capital ships

Tech 4: ISD, Interdictor

 

Rebels -

Tech 1: Nebulon-B, Corellian Corvette

Tech 2: Corellian Gunship, Marauder missile

Tech 3: Assault Frigate

Tech 4: MC80

 

Relative to the unmodded game, shadoe's changes are:

 

Empire -

add Venator at tech 2

raise VSD to tech 3

 

Rebels -

lower Corellian Gunship to tech 1

lower Assault Frigate to tech 2

lower MC80 to tech 3

add Liberty at tech 4

 

Note how the Rebels have 3 ships lowered in tech, plus they get the Liberty. The Empire offsets this by getting the Venator. I will probably swap the VSD and Venator (VSD back to 2, and Venator at 3), since the Venator is (arguably) the more powerful vessel.

 

In an unmodded game, the Rebels have to try to counter the level 2 VSD with a level 3 Assault Frigate. That was unbalanced. I think a L2 VSD + L3 Venator is probably not a bad match against a L2 Assault Frigate + L3 MC80. The Imperials have more fighters, the Rebels have more guns and shield boost.

[Adonnay]

@Tal: You can't compare the unmodded game to the one we have now using my mod. Every ship has been tweaked, some quite drastically. And to be honest... I think I'm out of this too...