WWIIOL or SW Galaxies

[Nute Gunray]

I did some research and it turns out that bombing Germany directly actually murdered German morale. Back before we had escorts and our bombers were easy kills for the Luftwaffe, the average German fighting man was thinking "They've stuck at the Fatherland! I must fight harder!" But in a year or two later when the Luftwaffe was wreckage and the P-51 ruled the sky, that same soldier though "Why am I here on the front? I need to get back home and protect my family."

 

After some thought, the U-boat thing MIGHT have worked. With factories intact, they would have been able to build fighters that made up for skill with the aircraft's abilities (like the Me 262) and all the skilled pilots wouldn't have been killed while trying to get through the bomber's fighter screen. Oh yeah, the U-boats. They could have pulled the U-boats closer in, into the English Channel and harassed shipping there. U-boats could run on the surface and have cover by German aircraft. this is an interesting scenario...i shall look into it more when i have the time.

[Guest Rogue 9]

ummmm, ME_Jeldren I was speaking hypothetically and I admit I got a city name wrong, Dang Soviets kept changing the things. the U-Boat strategy I outlined would have worked nicely, had they been withing range of friendly land based air cover they could have cruised on the surface for much more time with very little risk of detection, there position being known would have done the Allies no good as the Germans could have parked fishing trawlers everywhere and had them broadcasting false signals with the enigma Encyption codes. Convoys would have ceased traveling to England because of the risk and the new planes and pilots would have never arrived to bolster the RAF. the RAF would have been destroyed the Luffwaffe could then have pounded englands cities into ruble and the U-Boats could have Sunk much of the British Fleet Blockading Germany.

 

[This message has been edited by Rogue 9 (edited May 31, 2001).]

[Guest Rogue 9]

Hamblin you ther still? I was enjoing this discussion.

 

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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

[Guest Hamblin]

Yep, I'm still here. Spent some time with the better half, you know.

 

Now, ignoring Nute Gunray's rather funny ranting back there...

 

I did some research and it turns out that bombing Germany directly actually murdered German morale. Back before we had escorts and our bombers were easy kills for the Luftwaffe, the average German fighting man was thinking "They've stuck at the Fatherland! I must fight harder!" But in a year or two later when the Luftwaffe was wreckage and the P-51 ruled the sky, that same soldier though "Why am I here on the front? I need to get back home and protect my family."

 

That's because towards the end of the war, when it became clear Germany was losing, even the Nazi propaganda couldn't blind the public any longer. I'm sure Hitler's slow descent into insanity only made it worse (He began talking of imaginary counter-attacks by non-existant divisions, and so on). As the average person began to see what was happening to their brothers, their sons, and their fathers, as they got letters back from the front lines saying how bad the war was looking, when they realised how they'd sent their loved ones to die for a mad man, their morale obviously would sink lower and lower.

 

Originally posted by Nute Gunray:

 

After some thought, the U-boat thing MIGHT have worked. With factories intact, they would have been able to build fighters that made up for skill with the aircraft's abilities (like the Me 262) and all the skilled pilots wouldn't have been killed while trying to get through the bomber's fighter screen. Oh yeah, the U-boats. They could have pulled the U-boats closer in, into the English Channel and harassed shipping there. U-boats could run on the surface and have cover by German aircraft. this is an interesting scenario...i shall look into it more when i have the time.

 

Originally posted by Rogue 9:

 

ummmm, ME_Jeldren I was speaking hypothetically and I admit I got a city name wrong, Dang Soviets kept changing the things. the U-Boat strategy I outlined would have worked nicely, had they been withing range of friendly land based air cover they could have cruised on the surface for much more time with very little risk of detection, there position being known would have done the Allies no good as the Germans could have parked fishing trawlers everywhere and had them broadcasting false signals with the enigma Encyption codes. Convoys would have ceased traveling to England because of the risk and the new planes and pilots would have never arrived to bolster the RAF. the RAF would have been destroyed the Luffwaffe could then have pounded englands cities into ruble and the U-Boats could have Sunk much of the British Fleet Blockading Germany.

 

The thing is, America was in the war by then (If you're talking 1941-45), and Russia was fighting on the Eastern front. Britain was no longer vital to the war effort, as she wasn't the only one fighting against Germany. Churchill did act as a go between for Roosevelt and Stalin, and Britain was a perfect base for the bombing runs, but that was it.

 

If you're talking about 1939-41, before Sea Lion, Barbarossa and Pearl Harbour (Or, even, during Sea Lion), even if they could cut off the supplies to Britain (Which was doubtful, as Britain had learned the lessons from the first world war, and continued learning in the second. They improved the effectiveness of the convoys as the war went on, and the Enigma breakthroughs allowed her to anticipate U Boat attacks.

 

Britain's Naval superiority in the area was without question. The Naval forces in 1940 were as follows:

 

Royal Navy

• 5 capital ships
  
• 11 cruisers
  
• 53 destroyers
  
• 23 destroyers on convoy duty
  

 

Kriegsmarine

• 1 capital ship
  
• 1 cruiser
  
• 10 destroyers
  
• 20-30 submarines
  

 

And keep in mind, the Royal Navy weren't the only ones on Convoy duty. The Royal Canadian Navy and the United States Navy both played important roles in defending the convoys, and I'm not sure how many other Destroyers they devoted to the defence of the convoys.

 

Now, the aircraft, which you both mentioned. If the U Boats had remained within range of the Luftwaffe (In which case, they could stay on the surface), that would've just left less planes to attack Britain in the Battle of Britain, right? Less planes = less escorts for the bombers.

 

Furthermore, the Luftwaffe wasn't the best when it came to sinking ships. 39 RN destroyers took part in the Dunkirk evacuation. This operation required manoeuvring in a small harbour, with periods stationary while embarking troops. The Luftwaffe had command of the air for long periods. In these ideal conditions, the Luftwaffe managed to put out of commission a grand total of 4 destroyers. 4 out of 39 does not bode well for the Luftwaffe's chances.

 

Lastly, Aircraft Carriers. One Aircraft Carrier, with sufficient escorts for defending it against U Boats, could've sent up it's planes to attack the aircraft defending the U Boats, meaning those U Boats would have lost their advantage, and could be attacked.

 

In short, trying to defend the English coast would've only meant spreading their small U-boat forces thin. The Royal Navy had more than enough Destroyers in the Home Fleet to hunt down and eliminate the U boats not in the Atlantic, and the addition of the Royal Canadian Navy and the US Navy to assist the convoy duty would've only freed up more Royal Navy destroyers to protect the English coast. And, Luftwaffe pilots weren't really trained for attacking surface ships.

 

[This message has been edited by Hamblin (edited June 01, 2001).]

[Nute Gunray]

Since I'm cooking dinner, I don't have much time, so you only get one comment: there were no carriers, to my knowledge, the Atlantic. They were all in the Pacific.

[Taarkin]

The British might have had the Ark Royale in The Pond, but it might have been in the Med at the time...can't remember. Plus there were some little escort carriers that went with some convoys.

 

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Was I supposed to eat the heads too? 'Cause I took nooo prisioners!

 

Once again, evil is defeated through the use of decorative agricultural technology!

 

Official forum Psychic

[Guest Hamblin]

British Carriers that served in the Atlantic at some point in the war:

 

HMS Hermes

HMS Furious

HMS Unicorn

HMS Glorious

HMS Eagle

[Guest Harper]

Originally posted by Nute Gunray:

Since I'm cooking dinner, I don't have much time, so you only get one comment: there were no carriers, to my knowledge, the Atlantic. They were all in the Pacific.

 

The Brits had their own Carriers, which were superior to the American Equalivilent because there Armored decks allowed them to survive more hits, one the war on Germany was coming to a close the Brits assisted in the Pacific with there Carriers which preformed much better because there decks whick had been designed with close battles in mind were armored while American Carriers with there wood decks were extremely vunerable to kamakaze attacks.

 

my point stands though the Luffwaffe were much larger than the Brtitish Carrier Born Forces, they could have shot down the Carrier Aircraft and then pounced on the vunerable carriers with Torpedeos. U-Boats could have then sunk the Escorts and the British Fleet would have been forced to at least cease their blockade of Germanies Ports.

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[This message Belongs to Rogue 9.]

 

[This message has been edited by Harper (edited June 01, 2001).]

[Guest Rogue 9]

Crap, that was my post.

 

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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

[Guest Hamblin]

Actually, that reminds me.

 

RAF Coastal Command. They hunted U boats in the waters around Britain, the Mediterranean, and the Atlantic.

 

So, on the British side, you've got:

 

At least one Carrier

RAF Fighter Command

RAF Coastal Command

Destroyer escorts for the Carrier(s)

 

Depending on when this takes place during the war, let's assume the Spring/Summer of 1940 (Battle of Britain, in other words).

 

On the German side, you've got:

 

U Boats

The Luftwaffe escorting the U Boats

 

RAF Fighter Command, in conjunction with the Carrier borne forces, attack, and keep occupied, the Luftwaffe. In the meantime, the Destroyers, in conjunction with RAF Coastal Command and RAF Bomber Command, hunt down the U Boats, who no longer have their Luftwaffe advantage.

 

The Carrier could act as a means to extend the range of RAF Fighter Command, acting as a mobile base to allow the aircraft to quickly land, refuel, and take off again. All they'd have to do is keep the Luftwaffe busy, they don't necessarily have to shoot them all down.

 

While the RAF would have less planes fighting the Battle of Britain itself, so would the Luftwaffe (As they'd be diverting planes to defend the U Boats).

[Guest Rogue 9]

Carrier landings take exstesive training, training the RAF did not have, and as long as landing operations are running on a carrier her deck must remain clear so she can not launch new fighters.

[Guest Thrawn]

So to put all of this simply:

1.Supplies and material determine the ability of a nation to make war. Since Germany's production capability was severly crippled by bombing raids, they couldn't produce hardly anymore war machines.

 

2.This allowed for no fortification of occupied areas by German forces, and let Allied forces eventually overrun the defenses, slowly liberating all countries.

 

3.Germany surrenders. There ya go, case closed.

 

And the Japanese would've attacked the U.S. anyway, since they needed oil so badly.

 

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"Noobies Suck"

ThRaWn90,RAL_Thrawn,SOB_Thrawn

Rogue 6

[Guest Rogue 9]

Not if Germany had Broken the British Blockade, had this happened they could have gotten Oil to the Japanese

[ME_Jeldren]

Originally posted by Thrawn:

So to put all of this simply:

1.Supplies and material determine the ability of a nation to make war.

 

 

The destruction of their supply network did this. The bombing of their

factories had much less effect on their ability to make war. The factory

that produced heavy water in norway is a good example. A comando raid

did MUCH more damage than an air raid by the US Airforce.

 

[ME_Jeldren]

Originally posted by Rogue 9:

Not if Germany had Broken the British Blockade, had this happened they could have gotten Oil to the Japanese

 

Please.

1. Germany needed all oil they had for themselves.

2. Look at the map getting supplies trough hostile waters is extremnly difficult.

3. Germany never had to transportion capacity to supply the japanese with oil.

[Guest Rogue 9]

the German's were on there way to controling the middle east, had the German Fleet been able to Interdict the British landings they never would have lost Africa, from there they would be able to open two fronts on the already divided Governments of the Middle East then they would have had all the oil they needed and likely they would have captured transport ships in the bargin.

[Guest Luke Skywalker]

Germany lost the war for the next things: because they had a child mind (things like invade USSR when the winter comming understanding that it was the point where Napoleon lost is stupid) and a very bad logistic. I read a history in the eastern front that in a occassion the supply aircraft instead of drop ammunition they drop christmas trees!

Who is Hamblin? the british encyclopedia?, he has 22 post but write a lot! (Darth Sidius).

 

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"We did it!!!"

>May the force be with you<

Luke Skywalker, 38th Kokou Sentai

 

 

[Taarkin]

Originally posted by Luke Skywalker:

I read a history in the eastern front that in a occassion the supply aircraft instead of drop ammunition they drop christmas trees!

On one occasion, the German 6th army was resupplied with millions of CONTRACEPTIVES.

 

 

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Was I supposed to eat the heads too? 'Cause I took nooo prisioners!

 

Once again, evil is defeated through the use of decorative agricultural technology!

 

Official forum Psychic

[Guest Rogue 9]

Hambin seems well versed I give him credit for everything he knows.

[ME_Jeldren]

Originally posted by Rogue 9:

the German's were on there way to controling the middle east, had the German Fleet been able to Interdict the British landings they never would have lost Africa, from there they would be able to open two fronts on the already divided Governments of the Middle East then they would have had all the oil they needed and likely they would have captured transport ships in the bargin.

 

.North Africa is a logistical nightmare for the germans. They have to do it in 1940 before the

italians get spanked by the british. Britain didn't have much forces in that area in 1940

compared to 1941 AFAIK. But a german victotry in late 1940 early 41 in north africa is a

big what if. Britain will probably accept a german peace offer - especially without the battle

of britain to boost the british morale. Japan could be bribed with oil to attack/threaten the

USSR - this mean no pearl harbor and the US stays neutral.

[Guest Fondas]

Luke you've got something wrong!

 

Germans did anticipate that the Russian winter would cripple them. The reason that the winter caught up with them, was the stupidity of Mussolini and the bravery of Greeks.

 

Hitler wanted Hellas to be left alone, at least until the eastern front was beaten. Mussolini wanted to make a sudden strike and conquer Hellas.

 

We all know that Italians were pushed back to the sea, thus forcing Hitler to act.

 

The operation was called "Marita" and was executed because if Hellas remained free, it would be the perfect base of operation for RAF, endangering Bulgaria's Oil deposits, a key element for the success of operation Barbarossa.

 

Even when the greeks were beaten, the Resistance and especially the Battle of Crete, forced Hitler to detach a serious amount of Vermacht's troops, paras and two Pantzer divisions.

 

When finally decided to proceed with Barbarossa, about 1/4 of the task force was engaged in Hellenic soil.

That delay bought enough time for the defending Russians.

 

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"No matter how pretty the bait,

a hook is still a hook !"

TZG+7

 

[This message has been edited by Fondas (edited June 06, 2001).]

[Nute Gunray]

PS, i actually have WWIIOL now and it's neat.

[Guest Jabba The Hunt]

what you got it, how what where why me got money me buy soon tell me now please please please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

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Official Forum Newbian

 

Your more of a newbian than me, now thats saying something!

 

jabbathehunt@hotmail.com

[Admiral Zaarin]

Can someone hire a linguist to attempt a translation of that?

[Nute Gunray]

A week ago I saw the box in the window of the store where I buy games. It said RESERVE YOUR COPY NOW!!! So i did and put my $10 down. June 6th comes, they call me and say it's in. I go back to store and pay for the rest of it.

PLUS SIDE: my 8 meg video card is actually running it

NEGATIVE SIDE: the 70 meg patch that must be downloaded NOW.