Guest Imladil Posted May 17, 2000 Share Posted May 17, 2000 In Zen Buddhist tradition, there is a kind of riddle known as a koan. Unlike our western riddles, which have a humorous climax or a point of some kind, the zen koan is an open-ended riddle with no right or wrong answer. The riddle should be paradoxical in nature, ideally pointing in some way to the inifinite. The zen student would meditate long on a koan, and by doing so he would (hopefully) discover his true nature and become enlightened. A good zen koan can keep one wondering for days, until you finally come up with your own answer. Creating a zen koan can be interesting and fun! I invite everyone to contribute (they don't have to be strict, by the letter zen koans). If they have to do with Star Wars, great...but since the Jedi are a lot like the Samurai, this is fairly close to being on topic anyway. I'll start. "What is the color of nothing?" ? ------------------ "Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?" --Thrustweasel of Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shootist Posted May 17, 2000 Share Posted May 17, 2000 What color is imagination? Also see signature. ------------------ Boldly Going Nowhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shootist Posted May 17, 2000 Share Posted May 17, 2000 ...Where does a Nauga Hide? ------------------ Boldly Going Nowhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lt Cracken Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 the color of nothing is nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Fascinating. I think that a nauga hides in nothing. Which is why we have so many couches covered with naugahyde and so few naugas! For today, let's see. Oh, I know: "Where does the sky begin?" And, the signature I'm using these days could also be considered a koan. <font size=1>Note concerning yesterday's koan: I read that in Buddhist philosophy, only a Buddha could envision nothingness. Hmm.</font> ------------------ "Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?" --Thrustweasel of Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shootist Posted May 19, 2000 Share Posted May 19, 2000 I have my Butter Pecan...where's my koan? Koan:Why is the crack in your hiney verticle? ------------------ Boldly Going Nowhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chillin Posted May 19, 2000 Share Posted May 19, 2000 The sky begins where the ground ends....which is where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted May 19, 2000 Share Posted May 19, 2000 Food for thought here. I'd say Shootist's koan is answered by: gravity. Saying the ground is where the sky begins is too simplistic, though...what if you're in a cave underground? My koan tonight will be a zen knock-knock riddle. "Knock-knock!" "Who's there?" "No one." (Eternal silence) Another possibility for the third line would be, "You are," but then the koan becomes decidedly Vulcan in character... ------------------ "Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?" --Thrustweasel of Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GUNNER Posted May 19, 2000 Share Posted May 19, 2000 Holy crap, I must be in the wrong thread....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shootist Posted May 19, 2000 Share Posted May 19, 2000 Nah IM. the crack in yer hiney is vertical so that when you slide down a sliding board you don't go bib-a-lib-bib-a-lib bib-a-lib like when you pucker up, make a noise and strum your lips like a guitar. Today's koan: How much does sound weigh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Master Posted May 19, 2000 Share Posted May 19, 2000 Sound weighs, hmmmmmm. Nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lt Cracken Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 sound weight as much as the amount of pressure it puts on your eardrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 That's a good one. I'll go climb a mountain and think about it for a year or so... Right off the bat it strikes me that sound is vibration...or even more simply, it is the effect energy has on air molecules. Now, Einstein tells us that energy and matter are interchangeable--which means that if converted to matter, energy would correspondingly exhibit mass. It would indeed weigh something. Aaa-aah! Headache! ------------------ "Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?" --Thrustweasel of Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shootist Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 Actually, sound is the INTERPRETATION of waves in the audio range by the brain. My guess is that this interpretation weighs nothing, but as you folks say, the sound WAVES may have some force that can be interpreted as weight. ------------------ Boldly Going Nowhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Master Posted May 20, 2000 Share Posted May 20, 2000 So explain to how much this message is weighed if you said it out loud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shootist Posted May 21, 2000 Share Posted May 21, 2000 If I don't say it out loud will a tree still fall in the forest? ------------------ Boldly Going Nowhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted May 21, 2000 Share Posted May 21, 2000 'Is the glass half empty, or is it half full?' "Give me your glass!' If a tree falls on the only person in the forest who could have heard it...will that person be reincarnated with an unreasonable fear of silent trees? These are deep questions... Okay, a serious koan: "How does a drop of water exist?" --And no, the point isn't surface tension. We're actually talking about the singular nature of one drop of water versus, say, a river...is there only one drop of water, or are there countless drops? What is a 'drop' except just a temporary illusion of form anyway? Hmm... Best answer gets a dream date with Hillary Rodham Clinton. ------------------ "Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?" --Thrustweasel of Earth [This message has been edited by Imladil (edited May 21, 2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chillin Posted May 21, 2000 Share Posted May 21, 2000 Ok serious, I'll try Well I'd say a river is just countless drops of water. A river starts out as one drop of water anyway. Rivers always start in mountains, and when some snow starts to melt and it just drips one drop at a time, and eventually it makes a puddle, then a pond, then a lake, then all the water in the lake flows down the mountainside as a river. I don't know if anyone here is a student, but school sucks, thank our god IMLADIL that it's over soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Master Posted May 22, 2000 Share Posted May 22, 2000 Yes. Ii must agree Chillin. I get out June 6. Then during the summer Ii will start my plan of taking over the universe! Hahahahaha... of coarse with Imladils permission. [This message has been edited by The Master (edited May 21, 2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chillin Posted May 22, 2000 Share Posted May 22, 2000 To get back on topic here's a koan: If we are not "this crude matter" than what are we? (Quoting Yoda) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted May 22, 2000 Share Posted May 22, 2000 Permission to enjoy happiness denied! Instead of having a nice summer vacation, you both will have to attend summer education. Oh, it's not that bad. I have five classes selected that you can take (choose two.) 1: Tapestry weaving in ancient Rome. Learn how to make wall hangings the old fashioned way! Evening classes conducted by firelight. 2: Spanish for farmers. Learn the all-important linguistic skills needed by the modern industrial farmer (so you can talk with your workers, pendejo.) 3: Mystical symbolism of Buddhist Tibet. Ever stare at a sand painting for eighteen hours? Here's your chance! 4: Practical math for quantum physicists. Ever deal with numerical equations that essentially describe how a thing can be both everything and nothing? Aspirin provided with course materials. 5: Training badgers at home for blood sport. (My personal favorite.) Get a foothold in the nightlife while experiencing the beauty and brutality of mother nature firsthand. Course not offered in any state with a criminal justice system. It'll be fun--you'll see. ------------------ "Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?" --Thrustweasel of Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted May 22, 2000 Share Posted May 22, 2000 Chillin: you posted your koan while I was working on that last post. I will have to compose my answer carefully...probably tonight, after I've had a chance to think on it. Essentially, you're wandering into the philosophical void of soul existance. Dicey stuff. ------------------ "Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?" --Thrustweasel of Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted May 22, 2000 Share Posted May 22, 2000 All rightey, then. Here we go. My purpose here is to provide a possible explanation for the mystery discussed, but not necessarily the only one (a nod to In Search Of, there.) I'm one of those whackos that think that all the religions are talking about pretty much the same thing, and this explanation is going to wander a bit from worldview to worldview in stark refusal of recognizing those cultural boundaries. It is not my intention to offend or alienate anyone who believes differently...but in order to address Chillin's koan, I will have to discuss my own beliefs a bit. Think of it as philosophy instead of religion, if that helps. Anyway. In the second Star Wars movie, Yoda takes up the enormous task of teaching Luke about the true nature of the Force and the universe in general. When he speaks of being 'luminous beings, not this crude stuff,' Yoda seems to be indicating that our bodies and our selves are of different natures. Without using the word soul, by talking of that quality which transcends the physical he is nevertheless speaking of the same thing. Okay, smart guy. What is a soul? And how is it different from our physical bodies? In ancient wisdom we find mention of four elements...and a fifth, often called 'aether.' Not to be confused with element elements (which we now chart extensively on the periodic table), these four can best be described as the four vibrational states of matter. Heat is vibration, and the amount of heat applied to a substance makes it take one of four forms: solid, liquid, gaseous or plasma (a candle flame is a plasma). The fifth state, 'aether,' is best equated with our conventional understanding of energy. Since good old Einstein has already demonstrated quite well that energy and matter are interchangeable, we can see how energy is the fifth state of being that this 'stuff' takes. But a soul is something else altogether. We discuss this matter quite a bit at www.jediknight.net*. I tend to represent the new age mystic on the forum, so the question was directed to me once why the new-agers tended to think that their souls were comprised of energy. After some discussion, we decided that 'energy' is a thing that can be measured--and a soul clearly cannot be measured...but I did argue successfully that the soul would have to be able to manifest energy from time to time so that it could interact with the physical body. One cannot deny that the soul interacts with the physical self, and that interaction implies an energy/matter relationship of some sort. But it is more than mere energy; when we die, we go somewhere outside the physical universe, and no matter which form you think that afterlife takes...it no longer takes place in the form of physical existance. The best description I've been able to come up with for what it is that makes a soul real, is that it is the soul's own point of view which makes it real. Basically, if you're here and you're perceiving yourself to be here...you have a soul. One could almost say, 'I think; therefore, I am,' but that would be getting Descartes before des horse. Okay. Nice use of new age pseudo-religious Star Trek-science bull**** there, Imladil, but you still haven't given us a good explanation of what is a soul made of? Well, no I haven't. We don't know the answer to that question, but I can tell you that it is more or less the conclusion of mystics throughout history that the soul ultimately resides not in the body at all...but as a part of the greater glory of God. We are each, it would seem to this humble mystic, a smaller spark of a greater flame. And that flame is the only true reality, with this whole physical existance thing a play of light and shadows--not real at all, but an illusion. So, if my soul is real, and the entire physical universe is an illusion of less substantiality...can I get out of paying taxes? I mean, why bother? *<font size=1>I go by the handle Zoom Rabbit, in the 'Cantina' forum--stop in and visit me there, too! </font> ------------------ "Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?" --Thrustweasel of Earth [This message has been edited by Imladil (edited May 22, 2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Master Posted May 22, 2000 Share Posted May 22, 2000 So if we as humans have souls, what about animals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted May 23, 2000 Share Posted May 23, 2000 Well, this is just my own take on the matter...but every living thing that is created, experiences existance, then dies would naturally have a soul. All the way down to the amoeba. Okay, here is a new koan for today: "How real is the image in a mirror?" As usual, the immediate answer misses the point. Obviously, the reflection is just that--light bouncing back the other way. More to the point, how can we be sure which is the original image and which is the reflection? ------------------ "Is the state of being realized as important as realizing the state of being?" --Thrustweasel of Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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