Guest Imladil Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 Okay, I guess there was a new koan in that muddle after all: "Where does a circle end?" Discussion tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shootist Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 When your pencil runs out of lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Master Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 Good point SHOOTIST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chillin Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 I'm gonna miss the discussion, it sounds like a good one too. ------------------ "Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Master Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 We will try to up date you the best we can when you get back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted June 10, 2000 Share Posted June 10, 2000 Some would say that a circle doesn't have an end...but I say that's circular reasoning which gets us nowhere. Let's look at the whole circle, not just the path in space it describes. In the course of its existance, is there any time when it does have an end? Aspirin suggested with this koan. ------------------ "I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth." --Thrustweasel of Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Master Posted June 12, 2000 Share Posted June 12, 2000 Life is like a circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted June 12, 2000 Share Posted June 12, 2000 I thought that life was like a dream. Just kidding. You got it, buddy...if you substitute life for existance. Life is linear in nature, but existance is circular. We'll see what I mean by that shortly. Okay, here's my interpretation of the circle koan. When we look at a circle, we're seeing a design drawn on a sheet of paper (at least, that's what I've been visualizing here.) Obviously, there is no end in the design; it is a whole, closed structure without any difference between one point on it and the next. A line has an end; a circle does not. My trick is to think of the circle as it exists throughout its lifetime. I then come up with two possible answers. The first answer: the circle is drawn onto the paper, so it will end when the paper ends. Essentially, the circle's existance is dependant on the paper...so when that paper is destroyed, so too is the circle. This means that the circle has a linear nature after all--it was created when I drew it, it existed awhile as an endless design, then it ended when the paper was finally burned, shredded or whatever fate it eventually suffered. One could argue that graphite residue on what remains of the paper still exists, so the circle doesn't truly end, but I would simply say that it is no longer a circle. The second answer: (my favorite) the circle did indeed have an end as I was drawing it. When I put the pencil to the paper and began drawing, that point could be considered the 'end' of the line before the circle closed. The 'end' in this case is also the beginning, and exists not in space but in time...precisely at the time of the circle's creation. End becomes beginning, and the circle can be seen to have a cicular nature. This is a model of the nature of existance. Yes, I am using circular logic, but that's kind of the point. ------------------ "I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth." --Thrustweasel of Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted June 14, 2000 Share Posted June 14, 2000 Greetings. This post is the 108th...and 108 is a holy number in Hindu ideology. I've heard several explanations, but they went over my head. Something to do with the relationship between the human heartbeat and cosmological rhythms. Well, whatever it means, it should bring us good fortune. Today's koan: "Does fire have a living nature?" Or, put another way, can one prove in entirely objective terms that fire is not alive? And a haiku: 'I light the flares on my roof--perhaps tonight the saucers will land.' If I get a running start at that sucker, can I distract it with my sword? ------------------ "I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth." --Thrustweasel of Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chillin Posted June 18, 2000 Share Posted June 18, 2000 Hey! I like this topic don't stop posting here! ------------------ "Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HiddenTalon Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 <marquee>Fire is a zen element, therefore it can't be alive (unless water, stone, air etc are too)</marquee> ------------------ Name: HiddenTalon Email: HiddenTalon@mail.com Occupation: Crashing virtual X-Wings Webpage: www.scabmaps.cjb.net [This message has been edited by HiddenTalon (edited June 19, 2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 Ahhh. (Inscrutable oriental-type aaah.) There is another samurai at the table...now we're getting somewhere! By going back to the elemental view, you have successfully gotten to the root of the matter. Now...by elements, I'm not talking about the periodic table of elements, but rather the older description of vibrational matter states I talked about on page one of this thread. Fire is what we call a plasma, and it is just another form that matter can take if raised to the proper temperature. Once we've determined that it is this vibrational state which is responsible for the behavior it exhibits (consuming oxygen, growing, consuming fuel, etc.), we can see that this is not life but a simple chemical reaction. Although life is itself a chemical process! When we consider this, we immediately see what it is about our chemical process that distinguishes it from the simpler ones of nature: the accompanying consciousness. Once we've figured that out, though, it is interesting to note that the objective reasoning process has taken on a note of subjectivity--one must make a subjective decision as to whether the living being is experiencing consciousness instead of merely generating responses from a chemically-driven thought process. My point: consciousness cannot be determined from objective (or left-brained) reasoning alone--one must use the other side of the brain to make that call. More on the five elements. When reading Musashi's Book of Five Rings, I noticed that he'd arranged his work in five 'scrolls,' being earth, water, fire, air and nothingess. Curiously enough, in the Kabbalist tradition--from the other side of the world altogether--the five elements are related to the five 'sephirot' on the central pillar on the Tree of Life. Those five sephirot are in the same order, and lead the meditator from the lowest level, that of the phenomenal reality (earth) up to the Great Mystery itself* (nothingness.) Essentially, this codgey old samurai was laying a path for spiritual realization into his book...and his means are identical to those in Jewish mystical practice that he almost certainly knew nothing about! Kinda makes ya wonder. Chillin, I'm glad you're back! Yes, the discussion was kind of dying away. I had a feeling it would spark up when you got back, though. How was Florida? Did the house make it up okay? No koans or haiku for tonight. I'm off tomorrow, so I'll post some then... <font size=1>*This very same sequence, earth to nothingness, was the path followed in my thread 'A very nice story that has nothing to do with Star Wars.' It should be a few days down the forum topics list, if anyone's curious.</font> ------------------ "I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth." --Thrustweasel of Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Master Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 You meen I didn't help keep ths up while he was gone. I was the one who gave all the dinky little explanations. You gotta give me credit for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chillin Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 Imladil, you say something must be conscious for it to be alive? Well a plant is alive but not conscious, explain that! ------------------ "Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Master Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 Ii have something to say about that! Imladil dosn't know every thing. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted June 20, 2000 Share Posted June 20, 2000 Okay smart guy...what is consciousness? A plant exhibits signs of consciousness on a very limited level...but it is certainly enough to distinguish the nature of its existance from that of simple chemical reactions. The plant reacts to changes in its environment, and fire does not; when you monitor a plant with the necessary equipment, one finds that the plant exhibits subtle changes in its physiology in direct response to environmental factors. Also, a plant produces an electromagnetic field just like other, more clearly conscious life forms. Is a plant ever going to say hi? No, of course not. But it will eat a bug (if it's a carnivorous plant,) and it will turn to follow the sun. And if you yell at it, it's 'nervous system' will freak out. This is consciousness of a very primitive variety...it isn't aware of itself, and imagination is clearly out of the question. But it does perceive the universe, which means it has a point of view...which means that it is conscious. Think outside the box, man! Today's koan: "Does a computer die when you turn it off?" Now we'll just drag this discussion into the deeper water, and compare artificial intelligence to consciousness. ------------------ "I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth." --Thrustweasel of Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HiddenTalon Posted June 20, 2000 Share Posted June 20, 2000 No. If a computer is truly alive, then its hard drive is its memory. When you die, you lose your memories. When you boot up a computer, it still has its hard drive data (at least in should ) ------------------ Name: HiddenTalon Email: HiddenTalon@mail.com Occupation: Crashing virtual X-Wings Webpage: www.scabmaps.cjb.net =) Don't click on Mr. Smiley! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lt Cracken Posted June 20, 2000 Share Posted June 20, 2000 Good point HiddenTalon, but what about AFTER we die? eh? Some believe that our Consciousness(aka:memories) our transfered to a spiritual form (ghost) and we go either to Hell, bad, or Heaven, good. so therefore, theoretically, we could retain all memories after death. In theory of course. ------------------ Even if you dodge this, Kakarotto, THIS PLANET'S GOING UP IN SMOKE!! Vegeta, DragonBall Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HiddenTalon Posted June 20, 2000 Share Posted June 20, 2000 Ahh, but if a computer dies when it is turned off, then it is reincarnated when it is turned on. I've never heard anyone say that you retain memories after reincarnation... ------------------ Name: HiddenTalon Email: HiddenTalon@mail.com Occupation: Crashing virtual X-Wings Webpage: www.scabmaps.cjb.net =) Don't click on Mr. Smiley! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chillin Posted June 20, 2000 Share Posted June 20, 2000 I disagree Cracken, I've always believed that when you die you lose all your memories, even in the spiritual sense. So all the people you new that died all your loved ones you will not recognize. Also in heaven you'll be too transfixed on God's magnificence that you wouldn't even notice anyone. However I don't like that because because you won't get to see the people you knew ever again so now I agree with you Craken about the memories thing. You're very persuasive. ------------------ "Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted June 20, 2000 Share Posted June 20, 2000 Well, an open mind is a good thing...but that was an awful quick turnaround! I do agree with Cracken on this, for a couple of reasons. Reason one: the near-death experience. You can argue all you want that the NDE is a pre-death oxygen deprivation fantasy, but I'm firmly of the belief that it is a genuine experience. The mystic experience has many features in common with the NDE (and believe me, you aren't suffocating when you're meditating!) which lead me to believe so. Once you've taken this experience as genuine, though, you can see that it does indicate the existance of memory after death. Otherwise, how would we recognize the loved ones who come to greet us, or how could we remember the experience after we've returned? Reason two: reincarnative memories. I'm one of those who do have memories of past lives (although they're very faint memories), so it's quite easy for me to believe in reincarnation. There are case histories of people who recall their past incarnations to such detail that they can give names, dates and locations. While this body of evidence is highly subjective, the sheer weight of it is highly compelling. It's kind of like UFOs--not all of those people were hallucinating! So why don't we have 'hard drive' memories of past lives, just waiting to come online when we 're-start' the computer? Because in the case of human beings, the computer isn't just turned off...it is physically destroyed altogether. The only memories which survive are what data was transmitted out through the modem before it died ( ), which are then downloaded into the next computer. So where are these memories? Well, what do you think it is the subconscious mind is 'hiding' from us in the first place? We can, with (unfortunately) limited reliability, retrieve some of these memories to our conscious mind...but the suggestive nature of the subconscious mind makes a lot of 'random noise' intrude into the recollective process. This is how we wind up with kooks thinking they were all famous people in past lives, or knew the same people they know now back then. Of course, if we take reincarnation as given, then somebody had to be Napoleon...Vive la France! I still haven't addressed the computer koan proper. I believe I'll let the debate rage another day before I do so. ------------------ "I sought the true nature of reality but discovered instead the real nature of truth." --Thrustweasel of Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Master Posted June 20, 2000 Share Posted June 20, 2000 But a computer dosn't have a spirit so it can't go to Heaven or Hell, it also was created by man and it isn't alive to begin with. I beleive that man can't create life, they might be able to revive it but can't create it (with the exception of mutation. ) So there is no way the computer dies when it is shut off. It was a interesting question but sadly my answer is that it dosn't die when it is shut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chillin Posted June 20, 2000 Share Posted June 20, 2000 I would say the computer doesn't die, when you turn it off it's more like sleeping. When we go to sleep we are just on a mental shutdown. When we sleep our bodys stop doing anything unnesasary to our survival. The body also takes this time to heal any injuries. The nightmares and dreams we have is just our brain doing a virus check on our memories. And the dreams and nightmares come from our own hopes and fears. And since the computer is just sleeping that is why it retains it's memories, it even checks it's memory. ------------------ "Tis easier to ask forgiveness than permission." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Master Posted June 20, 2000 Share Posted June 20, 2000 Another good point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shootist Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Yeeesh! Another "God" thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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