Guest Rogue9 Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 I'm gonnan see how this works, please don't make me regret it... I believe that there is one true god, who came to earth in human form, and died on a cross for our sins, respond with your feelings please. and if someone makes an inflamatory comment don't respond to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dark Sad Shadow Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 i only believe in 2 Powerfull beings... One my Lord who Created me and all the living thing... and George Lucas who make happy... ------------------ The shadows become the reapers... we are becoming less humans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue Renegade Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 I think it's pretty clear how I feel on this matter. 9, I wanted to make comments on two issues. This may be a little much for some, but it may be good to help folks understand. 1. The Incarnation What is the incarnation? Well, it was the birth of Jesus Christ--God Himself born in the flesh. Why was that necessary? Christ came to redeem (means purchase from slavery or bondage) and save (from sin and its eternal penalty) human beings. To save us, he had to be born into our humanity--though without sin. This is also related to His substitutionary death on the cross. 2. The Cross of Christ People the world over have heard about the cross & resurrection of Jesus Christ. Yet, few understand the significance of these historical events. Why did Jesus die? How was it "for" us? The bible says "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3.23). Then, "The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6.23) When Jesus died, he voluntarily gave his life as a substitutionary sacrifice in payment of our penalty. We deserve the death (which ultimately is eternal), but Christ paid off that debt through the cross. His resurrection proves that He is who He said He is -- The Son of God; and it proves that He did what He said He would do -- Pay the penalty of our sin in full. ------------------ "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lujayne Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 I agree with R9 and RR. Now the question is, is believing enough, or is there anything else involved? --L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue9 Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 i don't think believing is enough you must act upon what you believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue Renegade Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 Ahhh, but what is "believing". The answer to that question, in my book, depends greatly on how you define "faith". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue Renegade Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 There are two "kinds" of faith: 1. Intellectual Assent This is simply believing the factual content of the gospel. This is what James describes as "dead" faith. Even the demons have this kind! They 'know' the truth, but they are not committed to it! 2. Personal Commitment This is a personal commitment of one's life because of the truth of the gospel. It is active, and bears "fruit" if you know what I mean. This is the kind of "faith" James speaks about as being true, saving faith. Illustration: A man visits the Grand Canyon and observes another man walking back & forth with a wheelbarrow across a canyon on a tightrope. Approaching the tight-rope walker, the first man says, "What in the world are you doing!?" "I'm practicing for tommorrow when I set the world record for carrying another person accross this canyon." "Wow! If I were a betting man, I'd put ALL my money on you! I know you can do it. I believe in you!" "Do you really believe in me?", asked the tightrope walker. "Yes, I really, really believe in you" said the man. "Well, then get in the wheelbarrow with me tommorow". That is true faith. Not just saying it, but actually trusting, commiting and "getting in the wheelbarrow" with Christ, knowing that He can indeed take us across to the other side. (Eph 2:8 NASB) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Eph 2:9 NASB) not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (Eph 2:10 NASB) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. ------------------ "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue9 Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 no ones disagreed so far, does that mean we're just one big happy community, with just a few dissenters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest General_Kioet Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 I believe in God being 3 beings, but all the same, God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit. I believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and was resurrected in 3 days, then he went to heaven, and now the Holy Spirit can live within us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ikhnaton Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 RR, funny that you should post that story and accompany with it those verses which are the biggest arguments for the primarily Protestant belief in sola fides, that is, the idea that faith alone saves you. Your story definitely shows that there must be action, there must be some form of work performed, whereas your verses denote that only faith is needed. I offer you the book of James, chapter 2, verse 14 til the end. of note, verse 17: "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself." faith and works are both needed for salvation. [This message has been edited by Ikhnaton (edited March 28, 2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ikhnaton Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 I offer you all this site for your reading enjoyment. This is a parody, please keep that in mind. It is meant to exaggerate what most protestants believe and how it does not match up with what is written in the Bible. http://www.angelfire.com/va/ProtestantGuide/RPV.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue9 Posted March 28, 2001 Share Posted March 28, 2001 actions are necessary, if you say you believe then you will live it, that should go without saying...heres a quote some may have heard, "faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it about as useless as a screen door on a submarine." -- Rich Mullins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rebel alliance Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 I agree with you nine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 So far so good. Here's a question: are faith and works alone sufficient to guarantee salvation? Also, what precisely is salvation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue Renegade Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 Indeed!!!!! Sola Gratia (By Grace Alone) Sola Fide (Through Faith Alone) Solo Christo (In Christ Alone) I'll add two more: Sola Scriptura (By Scripture Alone) Soli Deo Gloria (To the Glory of God Alone) I beleive all of the Reformation "solas" are firmly rooted in our only & final earthly authority, the Holy Scripture. But the misunderstanding as to the nature of faith is common. "Through Faith Alone" does not mean mere intellectual assent. Biblically speaking, faith is a trusting commitment. It is not a "work", but since regeneration changes a person's heart, a person with true faith will "work". (2 Cor 5:17 NASB) Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. A "born again" person becomes a slave to righteousness. (Rom 6:17 NASB) But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, (Rom 6:18 NASB) and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Look back at James and you'll see two events referenced in Abraham's life. First, when he "believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness". Second, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar (years later)-- and was thus "justified by works". Abraham 'proved' or demonstrated the reality of his faith by his later obedience. Works is NOT the root of our salvation, it is the fruit! And as James says, if you say you have faith but have NO works, what good is it. If you have a living faith you will have the works. Our works do not contribute or earn salvation, but they certainly demonstrate the reality or lack thereof. (Eph 2:10 NASB) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. We are not "saved" by good works, we are "saved" or "created in Christ Jesus" (which speaks or regeneration or the new birth) FOR good works. The works will be there. The real issue is exactly what Jesus said: (John 3:7 NASB) "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' ------------------ "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest General_Kioet Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 i think faith alone. 'cause what actions can you do if you're isolated on an island with no human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grand_Admiral_Ice Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 Ah, a topic I shouldn't talk in.+ Just stop by to say hi and increase my post count by one post. ------------------ Yvan eht nioj! Yvan eht nioj! Yvan eht nioj! Yvan eht nioj! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lujayne Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 G.A.I., nice to see you. General_K, everything must be taken in context. If you're on an island all alone, no, there's not a heck of a lot you can do. But the fact is, most of us aren't on islands all alone. Imladil, a good question! What is salvation? Okay, my answer was ( in my mind) too long to post here, so instead I posted it <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/kyotzukispalace/rsmessage.html">HERE!</a> --L. <font size=-2>p.s. please read my message; I worked so hard on it! =( <font color="#414141"> [This message has been edited by Lujayne (edited March 29, 2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Redwing Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 I believe that faith alone is enough to guarantee salvation. But... "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:20-26) **In honor of this topic, I will not use my signature, as it seems incongrous with the subject matter ** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue9 Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 that was a lot of Typing ~L, although I think it would have been fine for you to post it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GUNNER Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 Holy smokes, are some of you guys pastors? I see alot of right on awnsers here.... I also beleive in the one and only living GOD, the savior of my soul. The I AM. As far as having faith and the works together I beleive in that but here is a little question for ya.... If without work (actions) faith is dead then what about the sinner that was on the cross next to Christ. When he went to the cross he was a sinner and yet he believed in Christ while he was dieing and Christ said to him "Today you will be with me in Paradise". He didn't have time to do any actions to show his faith yet he still went to Heaven. So I would say that while it says that without actions faith is dead might be true it doesn't mean that you are not forgivin if you don't show your faith through actions. Did that make sence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 It does. I think that there are many ways back to the grace of God, not the least dramatic of which would be 'hey you--you're drafted.' I liked your post on the ways back to grace, RA. I reminds me of my studies of Kabbalah...each of the paths you mention is illustrated on the Tree of Life. Just to define myself here, I'll be representing the new age mystic's position at the conference table. I am Christian, although my views diverge from the rest of Christianity in that I believe our lord has been to this world many times, as many different teachers. I believe that the divine Christ* is a soul much larger than the historical Jesus. Most importantly, I hold the ridiculous opinion that all religions (except for cults and the like) serve God. *(Laughs at himself.)* Crazy talk, huh? What do I think salvation to be? As Lujayne hit upon so succinctly, it is the overcoming of sin and returning to a state of grace. I personally don't think that there wasn't a snake, two people and an apple tree, but rather a primordial state of consciousness that existed in between the instants God conceived of existance and the next when he created individuality by granting free will. To me, the apple is symbolic of free will...when Eve chose it over God, the original sin was created--the abandonment of God's will for our own. The garden of Eden story becomes a parable for our original loss of one-ness with God when we became individual souls. I would also like to say that I'm glad this thread is going well. I thought before that a topic like this wasn't going to make it here, but I'd say you're proving me wrong. Well done! <font size=1>Note: 'Christ' wasn't the man's last name. The word means 'messiah' in Greek, and is intended to describe his divine nature.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ATATwar Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 Wow, I'm surprised this is going along nicely here too. I believe in God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as being the Trinity. I believe everything the Bible says is true, and that most of the Bible is true happenings unless stated in the Bible. I believe the story of Adam and Eve to be completely a real life thing and not a parable. I see no reason why it should be considered a story representing ideas because their lives are later played out. But anyway, that part really isn't very important compared to where you spend eternity. I believe in a heaven and hell, to which either place you must go once you die. I believe that God sent His Son to be our Saviour, where he died on the cross and rose again, triumphant over death. I believe that Salvation is completely by faith, and that the works we do are not a requirement to heaven. BUT, I believe that if you are truly saved, you will do works that show you are a Christian. Now about Abraham's salvation and Rahab's salvation, I believe that they had faith in the God of Isreal and that is why they did the works they did. When Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac, it showed he was willing to trust in the Lord with all his heart, and the same for Rahab. And with their testimonies of salvation, you must also add the fact that people who were alive in the Old Testament HAD to do some works to have salvation, namely to offer sacrifices. But once Jesus came, died, and shed his blood, he offered the final sacrifice for our sins, and all we must do is have faith that He died for us, payed for our sins, and that we will meet him in heaven some day. And while we are on this subject, I submit to you the idea of where you will spend eternity. Make no mistake, it will be in heaven or hell... both of them very real, not ideas as some state, but they will be a place of glory and happiness or a place or fire and absence with the Lord. If you haven't thought about this, I suggest you do because this little mistake of ignoring the truth now could cost you your life in hell. Don't even get me started on evolution. It is totally wacked and makes no sense at all. I realize I'm sticking my neck out pretty far, but there are so many gapping holes in evolution, it drives me nuts to see the popular majority believe it. Things about how the universe came about(yes I know the answer is the big bang, but where did the gases for the big bang come from); and the chances that so many things mutated for the better, then kept those traits, passed them on to their children, the children kept those traits, and then the children had a mutation etc... For one thing, most mutations are harmful, for another thing, we can't find any missing links (and you say the duck billed platypus- whoopdido, name one reason it couldn't have been CREATED like that). But if all these millions or billions of animals evolved, why aren't we swimming in missing links? And that dating methods are terrible. I'm sure you haven't heard of the recently tested rock sample that came from a volcano which exploded less then a hundred years ago. Evolutionists exclaimed that that rock sample was over millions of years old, until they found out it was less then a hundred yrs old and they kinda pushed that one under the carpet, not to be discussed again. Oh well, I just hope some of you guys think about what is said in this topic because I think so far most of us agree that if you die without having a personal relationship with God, you will spend not hundreds, thousands, millions, or billions of years in fire, but eternity (forever). Don't let this slip your mind. The Bible calls this world a vaper, a passing mist. It is nothing compared to eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lujayne Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 Ooo, getting into some Ecclesiastes there. (a good book!) Hey Imladil, you haven't told us what you believe happens to people after they die--(Or are you like Confucious who said "I don't even understand this life; how could I possibly understand the next?" ) I'm curious to know your views! You've also said that you are a Christian mystic, right? (Please re-explain if I'm not getting this right) By this you mean that you want to experience God in the fullest, deepest, most inner way, correct? (Am I close?) I only have a small knowledge of what mysticism is; I'm a religious studies major, but we haven't covered a lot of that yet. At any rate, I know of a book that you might find interesting, It's called <u>Experiencing God</u>, and at the moment I forget who it's by, but I could easily find out if you're interested. And while I'm here, I thought I'd throw in a few definitions, since so many of these words are so often used, and yet it's possible that some people don't even really know what they mean. Grace: Getting something that we do not deserve. (a simple definition) Mercy: Not getting what we do deserve! Love: I say that love is an action, not an emotion as is commonly believed in our society today. The opposite of love is selfishness, not hate. Christ/Messiah: Yup, Imladil was right, Christ is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word messiah. But what does the Hebrew messiah mean? Simply put, it means "annointed one".<font size=-2><font color="#6e6e6e"> [This message has been edited by Lujayne (edited March 29, 2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ikhnaton Posted March 29, 2001 Share Posted March 29, 2001 GUNNER, my answer to the good thief was that he displayed his faith and his sorrow for his sins when he rebuked the bad thief and asked Jesus to remember him when he comes into his glory. Jesus, being God, could read his soul and see that he was truly sorry for his sins and loved God and believed in Jesus. It's somewhat of a special case due to the circumstances, but he still showed the fruit of his faith, IMO. Now, regarding our actions, read Matt 25:31-46, which is Jesus telling of when He comes in his glory and will the sheep from the goats, "I was hungry and you gave me food..." etc. Works by themselves are not enough to save us, but done in faith and love, they are pretty much the deciding factor on where we go when we die. has anyone read the link i posted earlier? It is good easy reading and interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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