Guest Redwing Posted April 1, 2001 Share Posted April 1, 2001 Imladil, trying to explain the Trinity isn't going to get anybody anywhere. God is not limited by our concepts like separation or time. He created those for our universe. ------------------ At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 1, 2001 Share Posted April 1, 2001 Who said anything about time? As for the concept of separation (and self) being created for our benefit...OF COURSE! I'm saying that this is how he did that. Those first three extensions of His reality into triune form are the three we're all talking about, though I realize that understanding the connection is tenuous. Remember, we are talking about ordinal concepts at our universe's creation, and details simply didn't exist yet... And no, no one can really understand God from God's point of view. Trinty is just our best understanding from our point of view. I realize that my explanation is totally not standard; non-standard explanations are my favorite tool for debate, which confounds those who aren't used to 'thinking outside the box.' Hee-hee-hee... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 1, 2001 Share Posted April 1, 2001 Onward and upward. So God essentially 'became' three in the act of creation. Once the stage was set for our universe to unfold, the first Three were firmly embedded in the fabric of it all like a fractal code, buried deep in our reality's programming. Time and time again, whenever we approach the concept of God...we run into those same three in one form or another (although still playing the same roles.) In Christianity, we have the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as names by which we call these aspects. There is God the infinite, which I will be keeping track of with the number 1), God as a person (the son, or 2) and God as the body of the universe itself (which includes consciousness) as 3. But they can be found elsewhere, by different names, and by different descriptions. There is a Buddhist parable which describes this by saying God is like an elephant, being described by blind men...none of whom can see the animal, but who have ahold of different body parts. One blind man has the trunk, and describes a snake-like creature. Another has an ear, and visualizes an animal with broad, leathery leaves. Still a third would have the tail, and describe something completely bizarre. See? (more) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 1, 2001 Share Posted April 1, 2001 Sort of like when there are several witnesses to a robbery...but each of them give different decriptions of the robber. They didn't each see a different robber--the nature of human perception is at work. And when it comes to God, we're talking about countless witnesses trying to describe a robber no living being can fully perceive. Here are the witness reports: In India, there is a hodge-podge of generally related religions called Hinduism. Although the details of their worship and teachings vary, they do describe their ultimate vision of God in triune form. God in the absolute is known as Brahman (1), and when He comes to earth in human form, he is known as Vishnu, the sustainer (2) who comes to sustain the learning of mankind on Earth. When God comes down to the individual, it is in the aspect of Shiva, who is called the destroyer (3)--although that isn't meant to generate fear, but to gently remind that it is our ending which defines our existance. On the physical level, sacred Hindu vedas describe the universe as consisting of three gunas, or forces interacting to create the spatial framework for everything. The guna Sattva represents 'bliss,' or the physical trancendent quality of eternity. The guna Rajas is the force of activity, while the third guna, Tamas is that of solidity. It has been suggested that if you tug on one of the gunas...you'll find Brahman, Vishnu or Shiva on the other end. In Buddhism...God as a concept is deconstructed entirely, as is their approach to the truth. They neither deny nor acknowledge the existance of God, as any preconception will mislead a student on that particular path. When Buddha himself was posed the question, he said literally 'no comment.' He knew that any answer he gave would form preconceptions in the student's mind. So we won't find a description of trinty expressed in words there! (more) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 1, 2001 Share Posted April 1, 2001 However, there are the three liberations of the Buddha--which are concepts the student must meditate upon and gain understanding thereof in order to become enlightened. By no coincidence at all, they are emptiness (1), formlessness (2) and desirelessness (3). I realize the connection is tenuous, but let's look at those more closely, bearing in mind that the student is trying to deconstruct his understanding in order to return to God (as we describe it, anyway.) In order to understand God as 1, we must encounter the emptiness of undifferentiated existance. To understand God in personal form (2), we must understand the formlessness that preceded this act. And to understand God as living existance (3), we must overcome the desire for existance itself...which is their version of original sin, by the way. Whether or not Buddha himself came to such a complete understanding of God is a matter of much debate, and I know I'm not qualified to answer it, so it should be ruled as a question mark. Also by no coincidence, in ancient Greek mystical practice there are the three guardians of the mysteries--concepts much like the Buddhist ones in application, but describing the elephant differently. They are fear (1), pride (2) and lust (3)...again, things to be mastered by the student. (more) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 1, 2001 Share Posted April 1, 2001 In Taoism, God isn't thought of as a person at all, but a vast, omnipotent force (much like the Star Wars 'Force.') Apparently, ancient China didn't encounter any messiahs. Anyway, the Tao is 1, and the other two are the yin and yang that make up the Tao. 2 is the yin, or 'masculine' aspect, which works with and resolves the 'feminine' yang (3) half. This idea of two interacting forces seems bizarre to us, but it is one that the Chinese have been happy with for ages. Right here in the US, before the white man came, the native Algonquin religion had its own triune concept of God. As the 'Great Spirit' (1) He was known in the absolute...but they called 2 the Thunderer, who ruled the sky , and 3 the Goddess, whose domain was the Earth. Their own allegory for the masculine/femine type interaction the Taoists were picking up on. Finally, for my last example... *(The forum cheers drowsily.)* My favorite meditational system is Kabbalah. An ancient Jewish tradition which was meant to be passed down orally as an adjunct to the Torah, it wasn't put into print until the middle ages. Nevertheless, it rings so true for those who have studied it in-depth that it should be taken seriously in any comparative religious discussion. The basis for Kabbalah is the Tree of life, a chart of ten interconnected spheres which represents both human consciousness and the act of creation, thus becoming a bridge to unite the two. It is said to have been given to man by angels as the way 'back to God.' Curiously, the whole thing is composed of three triangles, with a lone sphere at the bottom to represent the physical plane. The top three spheres represent God in our map of consciousness. The very top sphere (1) is called the Keter, and represents God the unknowable, the infinite. The second (2--duh) is Hokhma, among whose many attributes are wisdom and divine knowledge. The last (3) is Binah, which is said the represent the 'womb' of creation. Hmmm... (more) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 1, 2001 Share Posted April 1, 2001 Okay. There we have it: trinity absolutely everywhere--just like they've been saying all along. I will shut up...now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Redwing Posted April 1, 2001 Share Posted April 1, 2001 Time? Uh---ummmm----**runs** **hides** ------------------ At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Master Posted April 1, 2001 Share Posted April 1, 2001 Oh k........... Let me give my excellent reasoning. I beleive in the one true God and about 2000 years ago he had sent himself in form of man to die on the cross. God created the Earth and that means that there is NO Big Bang theory! I despise the theory. But I have no real idea how long ago the earth was created. The first women and man, as many of you know, was Adam and Eve, but it never told us HOW long they where in the garden of Eden. They could have been there hundreds of years or even months. But I am clueless and have thought about but I tend to leave the thought as it is. Then after they came out of the garden, their decendent had lived for hundreds of years, each individual lived for hundreds of years! I personally beleive that would be too long for me too live. (Though there are times....) So there could be million of years betwwen the time Adam and Eve left the garden and the time Noah built his ark. (But I doubt that it was that long.) But there has been proof that there is a God and people have always worshiped him from the beginning of time. Some may ask, So explain the skeletons of primative humans that were in the state of eveolution. My answer: How do they knew how it looked in life when it was alive? Maybe it didn't look at all like a primitive human they came out with the skeletons. They just could be a long extinct type of Gorilla. Or it could have even just been a deformed human! Now that I have gotten off of the thereoys that humans came up with as tough excuses so they don't have to go to church, let me move on, that is if you are STILL readiing what I am typing. I am a Baptist so I beleive in being born at an age when I am saved instead of being born at birth like Catholics and most other christian religions, (please don't take offense to this), also we don't do as many ceremonial type things as the Catholics becuase we beleive we must be out bring out others to know Christ. But we still hold certain ceremonial type things like the breaking of the body and drink of the blood of christ (or crackers and grape juice, you pick. ) But I am not saying that being something else than Baptist is bad or anything, it's just I have faith in my religion. Okay that's it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Master Posted April 1, 2001 Share Posted April 1, 2001 Didn't think I was religious, ehh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 I wonder which part of the elephant you're holding... *(Runs away.)* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grand_Admiral_Ice Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 I've com here to give you all the middle finger. ___ l l __ __ __ l l __ l ll ll l l l Dam, wait I'll get it right. Aww hell, take this. *Takes out ten thermo denators sets them on delay throws them and runs.* Die churchies!!! *The above message was a bad joke brought to you by Grand_Admiral_Ice. For more bad jokes, stay tune to your local FOX channel.* ------------------ Yvan eht nioj! Yvan eht nioj! Yvan eht nioj! Yvan eht nioj! [This message has been edited by Grand_Admiral_Ice (edited April 01, 2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue9 Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 as long as no one trys to explain evolution here we'll be going OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 *(Targets dynamite and blows it up in mid-air. Targets GAI, matches speed and takes down rear shields with laser cannon. Peels off attack without damaging ship, but sends a slow-moving heavy rocket after him to convince him to keep moving.)* Hee-hee-hee...y'all keep playing nice, now, hear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lujayne Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 I know that no words will convince anyone of anything ever. It may have been good for Paul a couple of millenia ago, with the Greeks who liked to reason and debate. But out culture is different and bases things on experience rather than apologetics. (Neither is better; just different) So instead of giving you an arguement, I will put down a bit of my own experience. I cannot tell you all the reasons why Jesus in His wisdom took interest in my life. It must be endless, the boundaries of His grace, for He patient with us and worthy to be praised. For above all things He is powerful. And above all things, He is the King. And above all things He is merciful, for above all things He thought of me. I can't concieve it, the torture of the cross; the Author of creation gave us life at His own cost. And when those present thought the grave would be the end, Jesus rose above it, and so will I my friend! For above all things He is powerful. And above all things He is the King. And above all things He is merciful, for above all things He thought of me. ------------------ A holy life will produce the deepest impressions. Lighthouses blow no horns, they only shine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 See, Lujayne, I did explain what my vision of God was versus those of other religions. It just took me a couple of pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Redwing Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 This argument is kinda pointless, but fun. (I mean it's not like we'll convert anyone, like you said L...) ------------------ At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue9 Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 there is a very influencial author who was a christan, my sig will be your only clue ------------------ "One RIng to Rule them All, One Ring to find them, One Ring to Bring them All, And in the Darkness Bind them" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue9 Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 and a quote on the word religion, Religion is Man's Atempt to reach God, Grace is God's Attempt to reach man. , I might have gotten a few words out ofplace but the meaning is still the same. Without God's Grace My "Religion" and other Christan Faiths have no basis. we can never hope to reach god, our only hope is for god to reach us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Redwing Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 MANY MANY MANY influential authors were/are (assuming they're alive) Christians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue9 Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 I was just pointing out a wel known one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue15 Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 hey, tm, there was a dude named methusela (not sure if it was him or not) but he lives 900+ years, died before he reached a thousand! man, that'd be too long to live i think, he lived about as long as yoda did! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue15 Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 lol i remember my first time taking communion, i didn't understand it much, and i thought i was drinking real human blood! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Redwing Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 If you read the ages in Genesis, you can see the lifespan slowly shortening, till it reaches our pathetically short times ------------------ At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Redwing Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 BZZZT---KRZZSSST--malfunctioning topic here---BSSSST----KRRRRR----won't go to top of list when posted to...**static** ------------------ At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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