Guest Redwing Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 Oh, NOW it works... ------------------ At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue9 Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 Its just Imperial Jamming again, we'll just have to hope you don't webspace this thread like you did the one over at XWA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Redwing Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 Why does everyone blame ME? ------------------ At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GUNNER Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 Why not is a better question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 It's like, why does everyone look at the fat kid when the toilet's clogged? [This message has been edited by Imladil (edited April 03, 2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Redwing Posted April 3, 2001 Share Posted April 3, 2001 ------------------ At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue Renegade Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 Okay, I've been waiting to see how this thread would run for a few days before my next response. Imladil, I respect your right to your opinions as do I respect Iknaton's right to his Catholic opinions. I think this whole thread has gone great! I'm glad we've had a good forum for such important and weighty discussion! The key to your position Imladil, seems to be the presupposition that God would not give the truth only to one group while giving lies to the other groups. Therefore, you seek to distill kernels of truth from all religious systems. Let's put your presupposition to the test. But before that, allow me to give a little overview from a biblical perspective. (To follow) ------------------ "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue Renegade Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 Rather than seeing this as a question of RELIGION, let's speak of a RELATIONSHIP with God. God created mankind in fellowship with Himself. However, because of the original sin, mankind (Adam as our federal head) became alienated from God. Salvation is essentially the restoration of that relationship with God. We were created with an intrinsic need for fellowship with Him. However, our sin has created a barrier between us and God. Romans 3.23 tells us, "All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." That means you-that means me-that means all of us. Apart from God, a void consumes our lives. We desperately try to fill that void with pleasure, wealth, success, fame, or whatever. In our innermost being, we know those attempts fail to fill that void. Only a reconciled relationship with God can replace that void with the love, joy, peace, and strength we all desire. Is such a reconciliation possible? YES! The Scripture says, "And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation" (Romans 5.11). How is this possible, you may ask. Well, reconciliation with God is a FREE gift. Sounds too good to be true? Listen to Romans 6.23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." That leaves us with two questions. First, how has God provided this FREE gift? Second, how can I receive this FREE gift? I'll quote a lot of scripture in answering these questions. It doesn't really matter what I say; what matters is what the Word of God declares. Romans 5.8-10 "God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Jesus Christ is the Son the God--God himself revealed and born in human flesh. Jesus died on the cross nearly 2000 years ago as a substitute for sinners. In His death, Jesus paid the full penalty of sin for all who would believe. This is precisely why Christ's death was a demonstration of God's love toward us. The sin barrier which estranges us from God is bridged in the cross of Jesus Christ. But it doesn't stop there . . . After being crucified for our sins, Jesus Christ was laid in a tomb. Three days later, Christ arose from the dead! 1 Corinthians 15.3-4 says, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." The Easter holiday is a worldwide celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. His resurrection from the dead proves: 1)He is who He said He is--the Son of God, and 2)He did what He said He would do--pay the sin-debt in full! Jesus Christ is a living Savior who stands ready to receive all who will come unto Him! His death, burial, and resurrection are the means through which God provided this FREE gift of salvation and reconciliation. How can I receive this FREE gift? The Scripture is very clear as to the path of reconciliation with God. Allow me to quote several passages in explanation. Acts 16.30-31 "'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' And they said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household.'" Romans 10.9-13 "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." Ephesians 2.8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast." John 3.16-18 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Salvation and reconciliation with God is by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ Jesus alone. Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14.6). We CAN be reconciled to God through the Lord Jesus Christ. "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2.5). We must turn away from our sin (repent) and commit our lives in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith is more than believing the facts in your head. It is also a heartfelt commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of your life. Faith is trusting the value and power of Christ's death and resurrection to saves us and reconcile us with God. Faith is surrendering our lives to Him. Genuine, saving faith always results in a changed life. Again, the Scripture says, "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come" (2 Corinthians 5.17). The change we undergo is so revolutionary, the Scripture describes it as being "born again." The Scripture describes it this way, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,who are kept by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1.3-5). ------------------ "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue Renegade Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 Imladil's Presupposition You assume that God would not give the truth to only one group of people: 1. God revealed His truth unto all people, yet sinful man runs away from God and perverts the truth. (Romans 1.18-23 NASB) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 2. Because of this, God did choose to create a nation of priests to serve as a respository of revealed truth. The nation of Israel was then supposed to make the truth of God known among the nations: God told Abraham that through him & his seed, all nations would be blessed: (Gen. 12.3) "And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Speaking of Israel: (Amos 3:2 NASB) "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth" 3. Yet, in many ways Israel did fail to be a kingdom of priests. Yet the purpose of God shall not be thwarted. Throught the New Testament church the Great Commission will be accomplished--representatives of ALL people groups shall be redeemed: (Rev 7:9-10 NASB) "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 4. Those who rejects the light of God's revelation can be "given over" into darkness. This is a consequence of their continued rebellion against the true God of the universe. (2 Th 2:11-12 NASB) "And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false,in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." ------------------ "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue Renegade Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 SUMMARY: The reality of multiple, conflicting religions is NOT a sign that people are "seeking" God, but a sign that people have "rejected" the one true living God, and have substituted their own inventions in His place. Autonomy is the essense of sin. The serpent tempted Eve "did God really say . . ." (doubt of God's revealed word) The temptation to "know good & evil as God" was a temptation to determine the nature of truth and morality by one's self. This is autonomy--self rule. True religion & relationship is found in Theonomy--submission to God's rule and authority, including the Truth as revealed in scripture. ------------------ "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lt Cracken Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 I never believed in an all powerful dude ruling my life. Don't like that. I like my leaders to be seen. The president, ect.. yeah, i can see those people, it helps with the credibility a bit. Personally, of God loves us so much, why is he letting us all DIE. AIDS, Ebola, The great Bubonic Plauge, natural disasters, war, Genocide, why did he let all these things happen and/or be created? hmm? don't tell me it's in his allmighty "divine Plan", because this plan sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue9 Posted April 7, 2001 Share Posted April 7, 2001 his plan was heaven on earth, we screwed it up by sinning right off the Bat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Redwing Posted April 7, 2001 Share Posted April 7, 2001 Like? Since when does "like" make any difference? Plagues etc are part of the curse after the Garden debacle. [This message has been edited by Redwing (edited April 07, 2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 7, 2001 Share Posted April 7, 2001 Well, you can believe in a universal truth that can be concisely defined in words if you want to, RR... For me though, 'because it says so in this book' will never be reason enough. I say put down the book for awhile and take up meditation, study life on a fine scale and learn the lessons that God gives each of us in our daily lives. This personal relationship with God should always be more important than anything the church or Bible tells us...after all, we shouldn't confuse One for the other! We do have different approaches to this, RR. That much is clear. Will one of us convince the other? Nope. If it helps, I should point out that in my worldview, you are also 'right' in that you are solidly on a path which will take you to God. It's my opinion that Christianity is the best religion we have, in that it does grant salvation to so many (which is the primary goal, after all.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue Renegade Posted April 7, 2001 Share Posted April 7, 2001 Good response Imladil! Yes, you are probably right about the "convincing" part. But it's still good to discuss, clarify, and think through these issues. BTW, I think that truth, of which you speak, is in some ways analogical. No God cannot be "contained" by anything. The very nature of God demands that He is entirely exhaustive of all things. However, just because say a picture cannot capture the full essence of a flower, is that picture yet not a faithful representation and disclosure of the true flower? Scripture is a faithful disclosure & revelation of God because of its inspiration by God himself. Scripture is the self-revelation of God. Though the revelation may not be exhaustive (the finite cannot fully comprehend the infinite), yet it is still yet an accurate revelation. The full revelation of God is of course in the person of Jesus Christ, who scripture says is the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form. ------------------ "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 8, 2001 Share Posted April 8, 2001 I find the flower picture metaphor intriguing. May I use it? Yes, our picture of a flower is a true and faithful one...but it doesn't show us the other side of the flower! Say another artist were sitting on the other side of it, and drew his own picture--that picture would be equally true, of the same flower. Now...let's suppose someone wanted to compose a piece of music about the flower, one whose languid melodies said to everyone: The Flower. That would also be a true and faithful representation--but now we aren't even working on canvas anymore! And it wouldn't stop there--someone would write a poem, another would sculpt it in ceramic, etc. In fact, pretty much everyone who saw the Flower would be moved to represent it artistically in some way, filling up a whole gallery devoted to our Flower with art of every imaginable kind. Let's suppose...that someone were raised indoors, and had never seen growing plants before--except for the One original Flower picture. To that person, that would be the Flower! None of these other pictures show the same arrangement of leaves and petals, and the music is just meaningless. For this hypothetical person, there is just the one True Flower, and a gallery full of 'false' flowers. If we're trying to come to a better understanding of God, we're pretty much forced to think outside the box. Way, way outside the box... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lujayne Posted April 9, 2001 Share Posted April 9, 2001 Imladil, your analogy is true in that it says no person can ever fully, acurately reproduce or tell who God is. That's why there's so many different religions out there: people are trying to explain and find God themselves, and you're right, they each create their own picture of Him, and no human could ever get God right. However, when GOD Himself tells who He is, he will, and He has, gotten it exactly right. God doesn't give a one-sided view of Himself. He is the same to every culture, every person, no matter where or how they were raised, because God does not change. The only problem is that a lot of people like their idea of God better. Sorry if this sounds harsh; I don't mean it to. However, it's what I firmly believe and so I won't be wishy-washy with my words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 9, 2001 Share Posted April 9, 2001 How was that harsh, Lujayne? Let me ask you a question, and it's one that a Hindu, Buddhist or Moslem would probably ask if they had the nerve to enter this debate ...why is your religion the 'true' one from God, and the others not? I know that it says so in the Bible. It also says in the Koran that Islam is the true faith. The teachings of Buddha insist that he is right. As you said yourself...a lot of people like their idea of God better. I will listen to a well-reasoned, objective argument as to why this would be so. More to the point, why can't all of them be true paths to God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue9 Posted April 9, 2001 Share Posted April 9, 2001 the bases of christanity, the belief that Jesus came to earth a died for our sins. is the only true FAITH, the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, no other way will get you there, I also don't me to sound gruff or harsh, but this is what I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lujayne Posted April 9, 2001 Share Posted April 9, 2001 Well Imladil, I do not say that my religion is the right one, because it's not 'my' religion; I didn't invent it. Well, my parents are not Christian, and they did not raise me as a Christian. I learned about it from other sources and made my own decision. I'm a Religious Studies major in university, and I've studied Hinduism and Sikhism briefly, and Islam, Greek Mythology, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto, Aboriginal, and Folk religions in depth. So one can definitely not argue that I haven't looked "outside the box". I don't believe that "Christianity" in the way most people think of it is the right religion; in fact, I think "religion" at all is a farce. Because "religion" is man's attempt to reach God. And since God is perfectly holy, no person could ever hope to reach Him. However, I do believe that Jesus Christ is God's attept to reach humanity; and so I am a Christian--one who is "a follower of Christ". And since Jesus Himself said that the only way to get back to God is through Himself, I take that as pure truth. No other faith teaches that Jesus is the only truth, and so I do not believe any other faith to be true. Yeah, I know that a lot of other religions teach of God becoming incarnate to help and/or save humanity--Krishna and Rama being only two examples--however I know that these are not simply another version of the same story, nor was it Jesus (God) becoming incarnate in another place, at another point in history, since many things these faiths teach are contrary to what Jesus taught when He came 2000 years ago saying that HE was the only way. Does that make sense or is it poorly phrased? (I'm much better at painting my ideas than writing them, darnit. Perhaps I'll post some of my God-inspired paintings, *lol*) (*stay tuned; there's more to come!*) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lujayne Posted April 10, 2001 Share Posted April 10, 2001 Okay, here is an answer to an often-asked question: <font color=black>Do all religions lead to God?</font> Many people think this is the case, because they assume that all religions are essentially the same when you get right down to it. But this just isn't true. If you let each religion speak for itself, you find religions around the world differ greatly on the basic concepts-God, truth, reality, the basic human dilemma and the solution to that dilemma. They differ so much that many of their statements contradict one another. For example, God cannot be both personal, as Christians, Jews and Muslims believe, and impersonal, as Buddhists and Hindus believe. Those are contradictory statements. According to the rules of logic, contradictory statements cannot all be true. Therefore, all religions cannot possibly be true. It is a logical impossibility. And if they are not all true, then not all of them can lead to God. Some people might question this, saying it is intolerant to think only one religion has things right. But this response shows a misunderstanding of what intolerance really is. Intolerance comes from the word "tolerate." To tolerate means to allow something, such as a belief, to exist even though we don't like it or agree with it. Tolerance does not mean never disagreeing with anybody. The word implies disagreement. True tolerance means allowing differing views to coexist without necessarily agreeing with them or claiming that all views are true. Therefore, we can hold that one view is true or better than other views without being intolerant. If we were truly intolerant, we would seek to silence other points of view. But merely engaging in persuasive conversation with someone you disagree with is not intolerance. We show more respect for each other when we take our religious claims seriously than when we clothe them in a patronizing cloak of relativism. Another thing that often gets confused is whether Christians claim that salvation comes only through adherence to their religion or whether our Saviour, Jesus Christ, is the only way to salvation. In actuality, what we believe is that no religion-not even Christianity-can save us; only Christ can do this. Salvation is not about demographics. Membership in a certain group, such as the Christian church, does not automatically lead to salvation. Neither does having the right thoughts or feelings or holding the right theological beliefs. Christianity's claim to exclusivity is not for the religion but for Christ. It is a claim that Jesus is the only true Saviour. On what evidence do Christians base this claim? Mainly on Jesus' own words. Jesus claimed to be the only Saviour "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). From His own words, both Jesus' followers and his opponents recognized that He claimed to be God, the only one able to save us from sin and death (see also John 20:24-29; John 10:31-33). When someone makes such claims we can react in one of three ways: we can believe him, disbelieve him or withhold belief. Withholding belief is a perfectly legitimate position. But it is only a transitional state. Sooner or later we have to make up our minds one way or the other. Disbelief is also legitimate, providing we have examined the evidence and have good arguments for why it is insufficient as a basis for belief. Finally, we have belief. There are many good reasons to believe that the claims of Christ are true, such as the reliability of the Bible; fulfilled prophecies; the teaching, character, and miracles of Christ; and testimonies from throughout the ages of how Christ has changed people's lives. So, Christians believe that if anyone is saved, it is not by Christianity or any other religion but by Jesus alone. At the same time, they believe Christianity contains the clearest presentation of Jesus and His teachings to be found anywhere. <font size=-2> [This message has been edited by Lujayne (edited April 09, 2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue9 Posted April 10, 2001 Share Posted April 10, 2001 you tell 'em, Lujayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 10, 2001 Share Posted April 10, 2001 Well, it appears that our beliefs diverge at that one major point: that Christ lived one incarnation or many. Actually, the Hindu concept of God is a personal one, much like it is in the Judeochristian view. We think of God as a person, which He then verifies by coming to us in human form. The difference between us and the Hindu faiths (bearing in mind that there isn't one unified Hindu church and one definite set of teachings like we have in Christianity--more or less) is that they believe in many avatars, or Jesus-like incarnations. Note: Jesus is accepted as an Avatar of Vishnu in some Hindu sects. Now, Buddhism is a different basket of muffins. The objective approach taken by the Vajrayana Buddhist is to approach God without any preconcept whatsoever...as a person, a force, or even any thing. In their own way, they seek to push the 'no graven image' notion to its furthest in their search for truth. Yes, this approach is diametrically opposite to ours, and would seem to indicate that both cannot be true. From a human's point of view. From God's point of view (in my humble opinion, anyway) though, it's possible for both to be true. Did you read the Flower metaphor? My roommate wants to use the phone. I shall return... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue9 Posted April 10, 2001 Share Posted April 10, 2001 here are my beliefs distilled into sentences... I Believe the Bible is the inspired, infallible and authoritative Word of God. I BELIEVE that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I BELIEVE in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father and His personal future return to this earth in power and glory to rule over the nations. I BELIEVE that the only means of being cleansed from sin is through repentance and faith in the precious blood of Christ. I BELIEVE that regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential for personal salvation. I BELIEVE that the redemptive work of Christ on the cross provides healing of the human body in answer to believing prayer. I BELIEVE in the Spirit-filled life by whose indwelling the Christian is given the power to live a victorious and effective life. I BELIEVE in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost, the one to everlasting life and the other to everlasting damnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Imladil Posted April 10, 2001 Share Posted April 10, 2001 The pizza is on its way. Anyway, I realize that fitting both worldviews into the humnan mind is impossible. My love for Jesus is what keeps me from being a 'true Buddhist' in the eyes of the easterner...just as my acceptance of the teachings of Buddha would disqualify my Christian status if the matter were put to a vote. I accept the conflict in views with the understanding that it is due to the limitations of my human mind that they do so. Now I refer back to my computer metaphor. The little deskptop PC in that model (which stands for the human mind) is way too small to conceptualize the entire internet (which represents God in a way.) Me trying to understand how all the religions work out is like our PC trying to run Linux and Mac software... So just where the heck am I coming from? It's a mystic thing. People have been calling us 'crazy' and 'nuts' for ages. Feel free to label me as such if it helps. 'Vive la resistance!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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