Idea: Lightsaber uses mouse directions rather than keyboard…

[IMJediLuke]

I think it sounds cool. You people comparing it to Die By The Sword don't get it at all... he's not suggesting direct mouse control over the saber. He's suggesting that the mouse have the same control over the saber as the keyboard does currently. You don't physically control the saber movement with the keyboard, you only give it button presses to activate certain attacks. This is what he's suggesting for the mouse.

 

Sounds like an awesome idea, I'm not positive this is the game to use it though. One obstacle is that it sounds like it would take a lot of coordination and relearning for people. It would probably feel a lot harder than the current system at first. It also sounds like it moves the action to more of a fighting game dynamic than an FPS. There's movement and speed, but on a somewhat limited basis, and the emphasis is more on technique, combos, and strategy than on "run n' gun" or "hack n' slash." That may well be more like movie saber combat, but it does seem to clash with the FPS elements of FFA mode and whatnot. Perhaps this could be added as a separate gameplay mode, i.e. duel mode?

 

Again, I think this idea sounds awesome and would love to see it ingame, and I think some people are misreading it. However, I feel this may be something we'll only see in a mod, if that, but somebody oughta go for it.

 

~Jedi

[SSH83]

Or at least with people i know of.

Here are two examles of the problems with mouse-activated swings:

 

1) Definately not newbie friendly. The newbies already have a hard enough time just trying to hit opponents with 100% control over turning, it'll only be harder for them if they won't be able to turn around when holding down the attack button.

If you had played the original JK and the famous SBX mods, you would notice that MP is actually a lot slower and a lot clumsier, and I think this is just to help the newbies ease in with saber fighting. So making a mouse-oriented movement will totally defeat that idea.

 

2) It's very difficult to perform the desired attack. the direct horizontal and vertical swings are relatively easy but how about the tilted swings. The players would constantly make mouse movements that aren't precise enough to make the cut for a y=x line in the grid to perform the moves. So maybe you wanted a tilted swing but you were one pixel away from making the cut so you made a vertical swing instead.

 

maybe in the future when better hardware support or some genius algorithm is thought up, we may not need the clumsy direction+attack style to perform moves, but until then, you can only dream.

[Canis_Aureus]

I might like the mouse system... I can't say really as it is too different from the current system. It sounds cool, but I would have to actually play with this system to say what I think. If it could be done so the gameplay didn't suffer... well yes it would indeed make the saber duels much more alive and personal.

 

The other thing you mention about you only attacking when in range... NO! I would just suggest that you let go of mouse1 when not in range - that solves the problem. I want to be able to identify those "Headless Chicken" morons who just hold down mouse1 and try to get close to me... so I can cut them down. Also I often make an attack when I'm not in range if I have seen the opponent use heavy stance... then when he goes in for the kill switch to light stance and give him a little stab.

 

The mouse system adds freedom which is good, but the other thing is limiting and helps the "headless Chickens" not appear so headless... which is bad.

[th15]

I think the original concept of the game (or another SW game) included mouse based saber controls. It was scrapped.

 

Rune's control system was a helluvalot less quirky. Even in SP Kyle does stupid things like start a fancy spin when the stormtrooper is dead infront of him. SP gets boring once you have the saber because all you do is push/pull then forward slash because its the only predictable move you can do. And when theres masses of enemies you rely on deflecting all of the stuff back at them till you get close enough to use push.

 

In multi its worse because BOTH players are largely hitting a direction and mashing the key OR theyre repeatedly using the strong stance lung move. Heck the silliest thing of all is the the medium stance's "death from above" move doesnt actually hit anything with the swing, it kills because your character holds the saber up high and to the right AFTER completely his little pirouette and it STILL does full swing damage while there. So it works when teh enemy is stupid enough to walk into that saber. Heck, the fast stance isnt any faster than the medium stance, you just get to chain as many attacks as you want (which isnt good since it leaves you open to attack)

 

Runes system was a whole lot easier. A direction and attack would start a combo. If you held the mouse down it would continue that combo regardless of which direction you went in after starting it. Right now our combos are dynamic, changing immediately because of the way you "chain" attacks together. But all that means is that youre just randomly mashing the mousebutton while trying to stay near to your target.

 

Raven had a good concept, heck the jumping system is incredible. The force powers are varied and balanced they just got a little carried away on the saber system. Time for them to get their feet back on the ground and make a social call on reality.

[Canis_Aureus]

lol th15 ... you have only been playing headless chicken then

 

If a player uses the same move again and again he's easy to kill... just do that and he'll learn. If a player just holds down the mouse1 and tries to get close to you, he's easy to kill... so again just kill him and with time he'll learn that his tactics are bad. Besides I have no problem making the swings I want... It's hard, but not impossible.

 

I also played Rune alot since I enjoy swordfighting. Runes system was way too simple and the fact that you had to actively block meant that most people just charged like maniacs (end it was quite hard to defend against because of target-lock). Most people had the target-lock function enabled... so they never had to keep their eyes on where you were...

 

IMO JO is the best swordfighting game I have ever seen... but not perfect. If they made the MP system just like the SP I would be satisfied.

[Chewie Bakker]

I too thought that this might be a good idea, but I quickly had second thoughts. I think it sounds good in theory, but in practice would be harder to control than the current system in practice.

 

It might make for a challenging duel, but imagine how annoying it would be to be frantically duelling your enemy when someone begins blasting you with the heavy repeater. The blocking system would surely be too difficult against something like that.

 

What I might like to have seen would be more difference between styles, and more than three of them. Not that I have anything against the current three stances, they pretty much rock!

 

[Guest Jolts]

what if you could walk, run, and have a 3rd function where you dig your heels into the ground and hold your position. Depending on what ls stance you are in you would have better balance and stronger blocking.

 

It would free up the strafe keys to allow you to swing left/right over the top and up. In this position maybe you could also just move forwards and backwards? maybe do a little river dancing...dirty dancing...robot dancing...

 

actually maybe it wouldn't work very well

[th15]

Actually that sounds alot better than what we've been hearing.

[Moleculor]

Nice idea. Let me clear it up for the people who are comparing it to Die By The Sword.

 

Current System | New System

LeftStrafe + Attack | MouseLeft + Attack

 

It would be a FULL SWING. No matter how much you moved the mouse. And if you moved the mouse up in the middle of the swing, the saber WOULD NOT MOVE UP. It would continue it's original path! Moving the mouse left (or whatever) would be JUST LIKE strafing left and attacking. You don't have to hold down the strafe button to make the swing keep going, and you wouldn't have to keep moving the mouse left to keep the swing going. You wouldn't be able to control how much of a swing there was. It'd be the VERY SAME SWING you see EVERY TIME you push the left strafe button when attacking. THE SAME ONE!

 

This is not the Die By The Sword system.

[hughJ]

if this is ever going to be done, it needs to be done quite soon before the game becomes too set in the community...

 

those saying that the game would turn more into a fighting game rather than an FPS run&gun, I really think that this game should or could be both... the current system really doesn't do Star Wars, Jedi, etc enough justice... the saber fighting mechanics take most of the learning curve, technique, skill, and depth out of the game.. the whole concept about close-range sword fighting *should* be about intended saber control(*aim*), combinations, blocks, and counters rather than just mashing your mouse1 key... i don't think I've ever had to play an FPS before that required me to see how fast I could rapidly tap a key... that's so... console-like *shivers*.. at the moment, the actual technique involved in doing those said movements is practically nonexistent..

 

whether or not it's a more direct mouse->saber control scheme, or just removing the link between strafing and saber aim to mouse direction, I think pretty much anything would be a deeper learning experience than where it stands right now..

 

when I got JK2, I was kinda hoping that it could satisfy some of the competitive drive I have to learn technique, and become a skilled player.. but after playing SP through, and seeing how MP gameplay depth stacked up, i really wasn't too impressed... it has virtually nothing to offer competitive FPS players other than the chance to roleplay a little.. and I'll likely be bored of the gameplay within a week...

[caelestis]

perhaps it might be pretty cool to have this implemented

 

but Raven worked too hard on the current system, and they wouldn't go through that much work to patch something that is working just fine.

 

but this would be pretty sweet in a mod

[Obi-Cyph]

Just for my thoughts on this matter, and its a long long post, so be prepared to read! :).

 

Cyphs thoughts on this matter:

 

The current saber combat system in Jedi Knight 2 is unfortunately, in my opinion, rather silly, and doesnt seem to flow at all. The mere fact that you have to strafe and move forwards back etc just to make spinning moves is I feel, rather wrong. Watching duels like this is also annoying, because you just see people spinning and strafing around and running backwards and forwards pointlessly, which, I'm sorry to say, looks rather stupid.

 

In Black and White, they use a system for casting spells by "drawing" the symbols with the mouse, by holding down the left or right button, and then quickly drawing the symbol. I feel this system could be put to use in Jedi Knight II rather easily.

 

Instead of having to strafe forward and right to perform a move in that direction, you simply have it setup with the software (which I believe can be integrated into the games), so you briefly hold down the button, and draw bottom left to top right, in a diagonal line. Or, a line like this: / (forward slash, obviously). You need not worry about such a thing interfering with your moveback/strafe left slash either, because you'd just draw that same line, but from top right to bottom left.

 

Ideally, this system of saber combat would benefit greatly, as your battles would look smoother from a spectator point of view, and it wouldnt be crazy random slashing and spinning around crazily. You could also assign slash codes to perform combos, which, as we know, would be awesome

 

This would not affect blocking, or even saber locks (for saber locks is all about random mad clicking skills Damn those D2 players can win that easy). It doesn't relate to defense at all. It's all purely offense.

 

Sensiva - Symbol Commander. This is the software that does all the funky stuff I'm mentioning.

 

Just the crazy ramblings of an old fool who uses the force

[Razage]

I'm not sure what's so hard about the current sabering system. Maybe it's just that I have a lot of past experiance with combo moves. When I started playing MotS SBX 2, I used to joke with my clan, and with the creator of the mod saying it was more like "Street Fighter X 2" because of the way the moves worked. However, I now realize that's really the only way around binding 80 keys to different moves. Okay, where does this tie in to mouse related movement? I think that some moves could be done in mouse ranges like the idea says. A quick flick of the mouse to the left and attack could do your side swing to the left. It takes more pressure off of the other hand which as it is DOES have to coordinate moves, force powers, and taunt/use.

 

However I'm not sure the change needs to be implemented reguardless. As a programmer my self I know that coding that would be alotta work and for very little since people want it to come in the form of a patch, yet technicaly it shouldn't patches are to fix technical inadiquicies (I can't spell) in the game. Like how I pushed the shadowtrooper into the water in Yavin Swamp and he never did come out to chase me. So answer me this: Would you pay 40 more dollers so that you can have a saber system that works by the mouse? (Especially after you'd have mastered the current one by the time this expansion comes out.) I'm pretty sure that's how Raven looks at it, well atleast I HOPE that's how they look at it.

 

*Deposits 0.02 nEw Empire credits.*

[Outlaw]

I made a post like this several months ago on this forum after completing Obi-Wan for the X-Box. You see Obi's light saber control is very impressive. Move the the analog stick left and he swings left. Move forward and he swing forward. Move the stick back and he deflects shots. You get the idea. When playing Obi-Wan I feal in direct control of the character when I attack multiple characters. When I heard Outcast would control the lightsaber be pushing one or two buttons I was very conserned. The response I got from others, at that time, in this forum was strange and defensive. Well, the saber control in Outcast is not as bad as I thought it could have been so I'm not to disapointed. Another idea could be if you click the left mouse button the saber swings left. Right mouse button and saber swings right, and center button the saber swings forward. You could use the keys for saber throw and other options. This could make a big difference in multiplayer and single player when surrounded by ten or more stormtroopers.

[Veng]

Raven i have no idea what these people are on about i love the curent control method to me as a fps veteran it feels natural and solid, and when im on a server it looks great when too people have a duel who know how to use the control method properly (ie no wild spinning and swinging for no reason) pls dont change the control method.

And in answer to the guy who liked black and white's "painting the symbol way" can u imagine doing that in a 16 player server?

my god talk about an over complicated control method.

Its obvious to me raven have spent a long time on the control method and in my opinion have got it right what you lot are asking for is over complicated and fiddly control method surely the best way to kill the game.

[flippet]

zealot, correct me if im wrong but what you're basically suggesting is that the jedi would swing at an opponent automatically with the mouse movement only when in range, so you wouldn't in fact even need the fire button to swing?

 

Actually that sounds pretty good, you could still do all the combos with the jump button, but I'm still not sure the parry would work, as how would it know the difference between an attack move and a block? and if it used the current system of no swing=parry it would mean you couldn't even move your torso when in range or you would attack. Maybe primary fire could mean parry when you hold the sabre instead, combined with direction from the mouse to parry.

 

edit: ok, scratch that I just read your post more carefully and its taken into account

 

As for the RMD vs WSAD debate, the big drawback with WSAD is you can't eat pizza and maintain control simultaneously

[Over_burn_jedi]

Seems to me many have different opinions about saber control. And I do ahve to agree that all the ideas are new and very well thought out...but...

 

Ok, I may be biased, but I like the current control system, although I would have liked something more "controllable" in a way, like a keypress to a different saber stroke, like numpad 1 for a left downward diagonal stroke...but there was a post concerning binds to taht...but the current control system still relies on movement and primary attack, something I am a tad concerned about.

 

Maybe its just my skill in tapping different keys to get the desired stroke I want, but I would want something similar to the keypad binds, just not motion based because when I hold down the keypad keys I move around. O I so hate it when I intended to move left and stroke a rightward horizontal when I suddenly fall in the pit I was supposed to hit my opponent into...

 

I just hope Raven looks into this thread so taht to look at all the new ideas for saber control, probably added in an expansion?

 

Modders, look around here, looks like you got a plethora of ideas here...

[Obi-Cyph]

Originally posted by Veng

Raven i have no idea what these people are on about i love the curent control method to me as a fps veteran it feels natural and solid, and when im on a server it looks great when too people have a duel who know how to use the control method properly (ie no wild spinning and swinging for no reason) pls dont change the control method.

 

Veng - I have nothing against the current control method in all honesty. It's something I've picked up easily, however, I do feel it could be slightly improved. If they changed it so when you start your swing with the saber is when you tap the movement keys in order to direct the swing, instead of how you have to hold the movement keys, and then swing.

 

For example, you click your mouse button to start the swing, and then you use the directional buttons (forward, back, move left and move right), to control how the swing goes. Unless it already does this, and I'm doing everything all wrong

 

Originally posted by Veng

And in answer to the guy who liked black and white's "painting the symbol way" can u imagine doing that in a 16 player server?

my god talk about an over complicated control method.

 

My suggestion about the Black and White style of "painting the symbol" isn't really such an over complicated control method. How would holding down the mouse button, drawing a quick up-right slash / be over-complicated? It's rather simple, actually.

 

How does the number of people in the server make any difference to the control method? I'd like to see you explain how having more people would make any difference.

 

I'm using the sensiva software at home at the moment (yes, the software thats in Black and White for painting the symbols), and it's pretty good. I'm in the middle of trying to get it to work with jk2, however it's proving trickier than expected.

 

Originally posted by Veng

Its obvious to me raven have spent a long time on the control method and in my opinion have got it right what you lot are asking for is over complicated and fiddly control method surely the best way to kill the game.

 

From reading this thread, no one has said that raven havent spent a lot of time on the control method.

 

Surely you also realise is that if raven did implement a mouse-movement-dictates-saber-swing style of control, they could easily add in an option in the menu to turn said control method on and off?

 

That would please the people who happily use the keyboard to control their attacks, as well as the people who'd like to use the mouse.

[Bacon00]

OK, I didn't read all the posts, as there are a ton and they are all very lengthy..

 

here's my opinion on the matter:

 

Black and White attempted a "gesture" system with the mouse. You make a symbol, and you preform a mirical. I personally hated it.. I just wanted a damn hotkey to press instead of having to trace this freaking symbol in the air.

 

Now, what does this have to do with the mouse-control thing? #1 - the mouse isn't as "directional" as you people think. It's easy to move it left and right on the desktop, but in a game, everything is moving soooo fast. You're twisting, turning, jumping, etc. If you're in a slow fight, it might work. If you're in a 3+ person fight, you'll die within seconds (you'd be attempting to face them, attack, clicking, BLAH!). The idea sounds great, but a lot of ideas sound great on paper, but don't really pan out.

 

To you people who are critisizing the randomness of this current saber system - you are creating the erratic movements yourself. Don't sit there just mashing buttons and spinning like an idiot. I usually win about 75-80% of saberfights because I don't sit there and swing like an idiot all the time. You have to release the mouse button (dear god no!), face them, jump around, and attack when they're open. You must THINK about your moves and WHEN you are going to hit... randomly slashing and hacking without any thought to what you're doing is what's creating the "erratic fighting" for obvious reasons. As you fight, calm down and take a few seconds to watch them and think. If you do that, I promise that you'll see some more entertaining and exciting saber fights.

 

But even as you do that, it'll still be a bit erratic.. there's no stopping that. But even with this new "mouse system" idea, it'll still be just as erratic... but instead of pressing WASD, you'll be clicking and moving your mouse a lot more.

 

It's a very good idea, but I just don't see how it could possibly be any better than the current system.

[chrism_s62]

In multiplayer I was using light stance and by holding attack and running forward/strafe and moving the mouse in a circle in the same direction as strafe I was able to just keep doing spins, continuously until I ran into a wall or something. The mouse does cause different attacks but you must use the keys as well

[hughJ]

the 'erraticness', imo, falls into the realm of the ease of use of the saber.. a lot of the aim, movement, and positioning technique involved in other higher-caliber competitive FPSs that create a learning curve and numerous skill levels is something that is lost with the saber... aim isn't nearly as important with it as it is with other games, (which only further rewards inprecision)... the strafe/movement-based saber technique also hurts positioning and movement, as they turn what could/should be a ballet of movement and technique of lightsaber into an oversimplified click-frenzy with jerky looking movement...

[Obi-Cyph]

Time to break lengthy posts up so I can reply to it in bits and pieces...

 

Originally posted by Bacon00

OK, I didn't read all the posts, as there are a ton and they are all very lengthy..

 

here's my opinion on the matter:

 

Black and White attempted a "gesture" system with the mouse. You make a symbol, and you preform a mirical. I personally hated it.. I just wanted a damn hotkey to press instead of having to trace this freaking symbol in the air.

 

You could click those icons down the bottom, I believe. Been a while since I played it.

 

Now, what does this have to do with the mouse-control thing? #1 - the mouse isn't as "directional" as you people think. It's easy to move it left and right on the desktop, but in a game, everything is moving soooo fast. You're twisting, turning, jumping, etc. If you're in a slow fight, it might work. If you're in a 3+ person fight, you'll die within seconds (you'd be attempting to face them, attack, clicking, BLAH!). The idea sounds great, but a lot of ideas sound great on paper, but don't really pan out.

 

The Black and White gesture system has nothing to do with mouse control. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. I was simply discussing the idea of drawing a slash / to perform a move. Other people are talking about moving the mouse in conjunction while clicking the attack button to perform attack moves. I was simply suggesting another way which I think could be done, though it would require a lot of work to implement, and a lot of work to master.

 

To you people who are critisizing the randomness of this current saber system - you are creating the erratic movements yourself. Don't sit there just mashing buttons and spinning like an idiot. I usually win about 75-80% of saberfights because I don't sit there and swing like an idiot all the time. You have to release the mouse button (dear god no!), face them, jump around, and attack when they're open. You must THINK about your moves and WHEN you are going to hit... randomly slashing and hacking without any thought to what you're doing is what's creating the "erratic fighting" for obvious reasons. As you fight, calm down and take a few seconds to watch them and think. If you do that, I promise that you'll see some more entertaining and exciting saber fights.

 

As I've said before, the only thing I have with the current saber system is the fact that a lot of the battles are just people running around, swinging wildly, strafing around and moving backwards and forwards in some strange ugly ballet (hrm, thats got to be the first time I've ever described it as such).

 

It really does make it look a bit silly from a spectator point of view, especially when viewed from above them. You are right thoug, if a lot of people didn't just mash keys wildly and randomly, it'd look a lot better (I admit, thats all I did to begin with, but now I try to not swing around wildly and time my attacks, though it IS tempting at times).

 

But even as you do that, it'll still be a bit erratic.. there's no stopping that. But even with this new "mouse system" idea, it'll still be just as erratic... but instead of pressing WASD, you'll be clicking and moving your mouse a lot more.

 

It's a very good idea, but I just don't see how it could possibly be any better than the current system.

 

True, the combat in JK2 will always, ALWAYS, be erratic. In regards to it be being better or not, if someone prefers combat method a over combat method b, it's better in their view, so therefore for them it would be better than the current suggestion.

 

I'm glad to see my suggestion about the "gesture" system from black and white at least got some discussion.

[Moleculor]

Honestly, as long as they make MP saber battles like SP ones, I'll be happy.

[hughJ]

"Honestly, as long as they make MP saber battles like SP ones, I'll be happy"

 

I'm game for that... I find it odd that SP actually seems to be the more fun and deep/complex of the two, one would think they would want the technique and fighting depth to be explored in the multiplayer more... as that tends to be what really adds product life to any game of the FPS genre..