MP Imbalance Issue: Guns + Force vs Sabers + Force

[fgStratus]

Guns are meant to be and are in actuality better than sabers. If you disagree then you need to find more competent players. A thrown saber deals 30 damage, leaves you open to fire, uses up force, and is slow, whereas the imperial repeater's alt fire deals significantly more damage, fires faster than can be force-pushed, and is nearly impossible to avoid without force jump unless the assailant misses with it.

However, the saber user is supposed to be able to make up for his downfalls by using the Force. He can then outmaneuver the gun user w/ force jump and speed, reducing his reliance on force pushing projectiles (which is hopeless since you can't really aim force-pushed projectiles, and you run out of force before he runs out of ammo.) Thus, the upside to being a Jedi and using the saber is that you have the power of "the Force."

 

As it stands now, a gun user can do everything a jedi user can + use guns. It is nearly impossible to saber a competent gunner because he has access to EXACTLY THE SAME FORCE POWERS AS YOU. The only difference is that you have a lightsaber and he has a gun. Thus, if you accept the premise that a lightsaber by itself with no force-assistance is inferior to a gun with no force-assistance, then the only logical conclusion you can reach is that, unless a lightsaber DRASTICALLY magnifies the Force powers of its wielder, the gunner has an advantage. As it stands, there doesn't seem to be any force ability that works better with sabers than with guns. Dark Rage with guns reduces damage and increases speed, making it ideal for flag capping, and whil erecovering u can just rocket/fpush/repeater anyone coming after you. If you shoot a projecitle at a Jedi and he force pushes it back to you, you can just force push it ack to him again, and since he force pushed first he'll run out of force first. Invisibility is ideal with guns considering that the only damaging swing available with the lightsaber is offensive stance which is nearly impossible to hit with against a target that is moving away from you, and, evne if you do it, you will lose invisibility and he will be able to force drain you to regain life and keep u from invising again, then blast the hell out of you with his full auto secondary fire repeater spam.

 

My solution?

-You could take the Jedi Knight1 Mysteries of the Sith approach by creating "classes", with each class having various gun and force restrictions.

-Wielding a gun would decrease the rank of all your force powers by 1 (not vice versa w/ lightsabers adding 1). Thus, you wouldn't be able to jump as high, your push would be less effective etc.

-Wielding a gun would prevent or slow force regeneration.

[fgStratus]

I don't hate gun users, I don't want to play on a saber-only server. The saber is, on the large scale, just another weapon to use. Its just, by itself, a piece of **** compared to other weapons. And please spare me the elitist "stfu n00b i r0x gun guys with the saber" crap. If the gun user isn't close up and is not trying to run into you, you will never hit him unless he makes a really dumb mistake like backing into a corner and missing with every shot.

[paulbob]

I agree. There's not much you can do with a saber vs a competent gunner with a Flechette or Heavy Repeater when they have access to the same force powers as you do. Especially when they use speed and drain all your force. Even if they don't use drain, the only force power that is of any significant value to counter those types of guns is push. And even then, your force power will last nowhere near as long as the gunner's ammo. Especially if they are guarding a flag or something and are sitting on top of the ammo respawn...

 

I've been playing mostly sabers only servers since JKII came out, so I'm not too proficient on sabers vs guns strategies. If anyone knows any, drop me a line, thx

 

-paulbob

w00t!

[fgStratus]

The sabers vs guns strategy is to run around with a saber for defense until you can pick up a gun, then use the gun. This holds true for FFA/CTF/CTY/TFFA.

[Mero Vilul]

More solutions/ideas:

 

----------------------------------------

A new skill for weapons for which you use force points.

everyone has level "0", which means eg sabre - blaster.

sample numbers for cost:

level 1 - 2 pts, can use more weapons.

level 2 - 6 pts, can use most except rocket launcher and more.

level 3 - 10 pts, can use all weapons.

That would make all "only saber"-players have 18 more points to use. (although most will go into saber use)

 

This could be a new mode in the game, leaving the old system still left intact. Even I realise that up against a force-gunner a force-saberist has no chance. If they are equally good that is.

The gunner will win most of the times.

No matter how much you all want the "Noone beats a Jedi with a gun"-style from the movies in the game.

The fact now is: When (although seldom) I play force-gunner, I kick all other players asses. Players that I am equally good against in sabre duels, really have no chance then.

Face it.

Face the truth.

 

As it is now, a Saberist must use points to be able to use the strong and medium stances, so why wouldn't another player use points to wield heavier weapons? That only seems fair to me.

Make the light saberstance cost 2 points, which player never using saber can take away and put in level 1 gunnery instead.

 

And I liked the class system in Jedi Knight - MOTS.

 

Note: The numbers for eg force cost for gunnery, are imaginary numbers, so do not post comments like "10 pts for heavy gunner would be to much".

 

Thank you.

[fLyte]

yeh, i'd have to agree. I was playing mp on a ffa server and I could take on the saber guys, cept when someone came around with a gun, i had a harder time. But I still prefer the lightsaber to guns...and most of the time I'll try and take gunners on with it, even though they prob have the upper hand. Feels good if you do succeed.

 

But it all depends on how good your opponent is with their guns i guess.

[fune]

Tip: use force pull to disarm your foes and slice them open when they're confused Granted it doesn't work always but just keep dodging and try again until you succeed.

[Mero Vilul]

Fune:

Yes that works, but let's take an example:

You force pull my rocket launcher, how are you gonna get close to me and slice me open then? I can force jump just as good as you, and I even have more force power than you do, as I don't have medium or strong style as saber (who needs them as a force-gunner?)... So If you force pull me closer, I force push you further.

There's no way (except some "lucky" situations) you gonna win, if we are equally skilled.

 

Sabring a newbie gunner is not a problem, but you wont get close to an experienced gunner.

 

That is the problem, and thats why I want a skill for weapon use.

That way, we would all at least have equally force powers, as it is now the force gunner can remove force attack & defend skills, leaving like 20 forcepoints extra to use(don't have exact numbers in my head), than the sabreist.

full light side, full dark side powers, whatever hes choice is, he got it, and you don't. (if not playing on highest force level that is, which most servers don't have)

[arctic_series]

Guns are meant to be and are in actuality better than sabers. If you disagree then you need to find more competent players. A thrown saber deals 30 damage, leaves you open to fire, uses up force, and is slow, whereas the imperial repeater's alt fire deals significantly more damage, fires faster than can be force-pushed, and is nearly impossible to avoid without force jump unless the assailant misses with it.

 

um no. it's supposed to be the other way around.

 

jedi knight isn't just another fps game where the lamer who jumps alot with the fattest spamming weapon wins. that would be what quake is for. it's supposed to be well balanced in the sense that a player using sabre + force vs a player using guns of equal skill level wouldn't have any balancing issues. considering that guns aren't pulled out of one's hands 100% of the tiem like in jedi knight 1.

 

face it. 95% of all the gunners whore with the alt fire on the repeater rifle. or else they simply cannot kill with any other gun.

 

force push deals with every other heavy projectile based weapon due to their low firing speed, but against the alt fire mode on the repeater it's rather difficult due to the high power and the fast rate of fire.

[arctic_series]

Originally posted by Mero Vilul

Fune:

Yes that works, but let's take an example:

You force pull my rocket launcher, how are you gonna get close to me and slice me open then? I can force jump just as good as you, and I even have more force power than you do, as I don't have medium or strong style as saber (who needs them as a force-gunner?)... So If you force pull me closer, I force push you further.

There's no way (except some "lucky" situations) you gonna win, if we are equally skilled.

 

Sabring a newbie gunner is not a problem, but you wont get close to an experienced gunner.

 

That is the problem, and thats why I want a skill for weapon use.

That way, we would all at least have equally force powers, as it is now the force gunner can remove force attack & defend skills, leaving like 20 forcepoints extra to use(don't have exact numbers in my head), than the sabreist.

full light side, full dark side powers, whatever hes choice is, he got it, and you don't. (if not playing on highest force level that is, which most servers don't have)

 

you can't just push someone away if they're not in the middle of an animation, however pull will prevent you from running away from the sabre user. and if you do push his animation will already have finished and such your push won't do anything.

[Mero Vilul]

Originally posted by arctic_series

 

you can't just push someone away if they're not in the middle of an animation, however pull will prevent you from running away from the sabre user. and if you do push his animation will already have finished and such your push won't do anything.

 

You are absolutely right. But Im talking about the fact that I will have 20pts (or whatever) more force power than you, force run to escape you, force grip + pull, and so on.

You will have many points wasted in saber attack + defend, and probably throw. Points I have invested in attack powers instead.

And besides, I can draw my saber and use light attack.

I promise you, Im not incredibly good, but people who I've dueled with and even lost most of the times too, I totaly crush as a force-gunner.

 

My only point in this thread is:

Make a skill for weapon use, so people using Rocket launchers and such, have equally force powers as a pure saberist.

 

Join a low level force server, and you really see a diffrence.

You use up all points for getting medium/strong defense & attack, an maybe one points in throw, and the other guy will have full drain/pull/grip, and you will have no extra forces.

 

Can you honestly tell me that you will beat a equaly skilled force-gunner then?

[Creston]

The whole issue of saber vs guns is in my opinion the biggest problem with JK2 multiplayer. The saber is totally useless against someone with a gun, because :

 

A) he can run backwards as fast as you can run forwards (which SUCKS, Raven!! Have you ever seen anyone run backwards???), meaning you will never catch him (unless you use speed, but then he can do the same thing, stalemate). And while you are trying to get close to him to chop him, he's happily blasting away at you with his flechette gun, or the alt repeater.

 

B) Saber defense 3 in multiplayer is a joke. Play singleplayer, run into a room of stormies with saber defense 3, stand with your back in a corner, saber held ready, go away and have lunch, come back, and you are STILL standing there, defending against all those stormies, shooting away at you.

Try the following in single player. Stand still in a room, directly opposite a player with the blaster rifle. Saber ready, saber defense 3. In less than ten seconds, he's mowed you down. WITH THE BLASTER RIFLE!!!!

 

Hello? And everybody's ok with this?

 

I play saber only servers, because I get sick and tired of gunners who do nothing but alt repeater everyone they see while I'm trying to have some decent duels with lightsaber wielders.

 

Solutions?

 

1) Backwards running speed must be cut in half or more. You want to run away from me, fine, then RUN AWAY. Backpedalling sucks.

 

2) Saber defense must be put up to the level of the single player game. These are Jedi Masters, FFS, who are getting shot down by peeps with crap weapons.

 

Two simple solutions, which I predict will bring about a massive shift in MPer. It will be nice to see the alt repeater whores having to learn a new tactic.

 

The way JK2 multiplayer is now, is Quake with forcepowers. Why bother bringing your lightsaber? Raven, can I exchange my lightsaber for some extra ammo for my repeater? I can get more kills that way. Grmbl..

 

Creston

[Ascari]

True, Raven should really fix the gun problem, as one of u guys stated earlier. If you are a gunner you got a lot more points in the attacking forces. Which imho isnt fair. The only way u catch them is by using pull.

 

But guys, i've tested something with a friend of mine with the saber. I can block any attack ( short of the alt. fire repeater, and the alternative fire from the shotgun, and the missile launcher ) granted i'm not walking backwards. If u stand still, or move forward u will block everything. And u can always pull their gun out of their hands. (which should have been easier in MP imho)

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by fgStratus

Guns are meant to be and are in actuality better than sabers. If you disagree then you need to find more competent players. A thrown saber deals 30 damage, leaves you open to fire, uses up force, and is slow, whereas the imperial repeater's alt fire deals significantly more damage, fires faster than can be force-pushed, and is nearly impossible to avoid without force jump unless the assailant misses with it.

 

No I don't agree, and it sounds as if you're the one playing against n00bs. You're forgetting the primary advantage of the saber over guns: it can't be reflected back in your teeth. Plus, the alt-fire on the repeater is only useful at medium range and less than that if your target is above you. Anyone with force speed or dark rage can close that distance quckly enough to force pull your n00b cannon. And no, a gun lamer can't keep his weapon from being pulled no matter what force powers he has.

 

However, the saber user is supposed to be able to make up for his downfalls by using the Force. He can then outmaneuver the gun user w/ force jump and speed, reducing his reliance on force pushing projectiles (which is hopeless since you can't really aim force-pushed projectiles, and you run out of force before he runs out of ammo.) Thus, the upside to being a Jedi and using the saber is that you have the power of "the Force."

 

Your saber also reflects all blaster-class projectiles automatically assuming you have high enough saber defense.

 

As it stands now, a gun user can do everything a jedi user can + use guns. It is nearly impossible to saber a competent gunner because he has access to EXACTLY THE SAME FORCE POWERS AS YOU. The only difference is that you have a lightsaber and he has a gun.

 

...which means he can reflect any non-projectile shots without doing anything...

 

Thus, if you accept the premise that a lightsaber by itself with no force-assistance is inferior to a gun with no force-assistance, then the only logical conclusion you can reach is that, unless a lightsaber DRASTICALLY magnifies the Force powers of its wielder, the gunner has an advantage.

 

...wrong. Any gun will eventually be pulled by a competant player if the gun lamer isn't killed by their own shots first.

 

As it stands, there doesn't seem to be any force ability that works better with sabers than with guns. Dark Rage with guns reduces damage and increases speed, making it ideal for flag capping, and whil erecovering u can just rocket/fpush/repeater anyone coming after you.

 

As stated by me and many others, force push only works against a target that is jumping, attacking or rolling. Your rocket or repeater are going to get pulled if you're not killed by your own shots first.

 

If you shoot a projecitle at a Jedi and he force pushes it back to you, you can just force push it ack to him again, and since he force pushed first he'll run out of force first.

 

Thought you said the repeater was too fast to push back, hmm? Remember,"...fires faster than can be force-pushed,...". If someone does manage to push it back on you, you think you'll be able to push it back while trying to gun spam?

 

Invisibility is ideal with guns considering that the only damaging swing available with the lightsaber is offensive stance which is nearly impossible to hit with against a target that is moving away from you,

 

Assume that I'm not a n00b and don't try to go invisible right in front of you. The whole point of invisibility is remaining undetected. You can't move away from me if you don't know where i am.

 

and, evne if you do it, you will lose invisibility and he will be able to force drain you to regain life and keep u from invising again,

 

And if I drain you first?

 

then blast the hell out of you with his full auto secondary fire repeater spam.

 

You're assuming I haven't managed to pull it.

 

My solution?

-You could take the Jedi Knight1 Mysteries of the Sith approach by creating "classes", with each class having various gun and force restrictions.

-Wielding a gun would decrease the rank of all your force powers by 1 (not vice versa w/ lightsabers adding 1). Thus, you wouldn't be able to jump as high, your push would be less effective etc.

-Wielding a gun would prevent or slow force regeneration.

 

Nah. Schooling gun lamers is huge fun. Especially since, as a general rule, they completely suck at saber fighting. Nerf gun use any more and we won't have great debates like this one!

 

Also, you've completely left out use of the inventory items. Sentry guns, seeker drones and force fields can be used to great effect against the gun lamer. I can plant a sentry gun or use a seeker drone that will be shooting at you constantly and with very high precision while reflecting your impotent blaster shots or force pushing your projectiles. Remember, you can't push them and you can't reflect them off your shiny gun.

[Mattman]

Hey Mero Vilul, I registered on this forum to propose the very same force-points-for-gun-use idea you had. However, since you already beat me to it, I'll just second it.

 

I think this is the best solution in general since it, in general, lets you decide your own character's class (though a true class based mode would be fun to.)

 

I even have a rationalization of it, let's be honest, if a jedi has been spending his time learning how to opperate that heavy repeater and disruptor, then he probably wasn't practicing his force jumps and saber defense as he should have been.

 

To put it another way, the force points, as I see it, represent what area a warrior has put his focus on in his past training. Time that was spent learning to use guns was not time spent learning to use the force.

 

I have to say that I don't really like the idea of force abilities being adjusted in accordance to what weapon a person is weilding at the as others have proposed. It seems less intuitive to me, and (for lack of a better term) less realistic.

 

Have you posted this idea to the sticky patch thread at the top of the page? It'd probably be a good idea. Feel free to use any of my points in this thread if you'd like.

[Essobie]

Originally posted by arctic_series

 

um no. it's supposed to be the other way around.

 

jedi knight isn't just another fps game where the lamer who jumps alot with the fattest spamming weapon wins. that would be what quake is for. it's supposed to be well balanced in the sense that a player using sabre + force vs a player using guns of equal skill level wouldn't have any balancing issues. considering that guns aren't pulled out of one's hands 100% of the tiem like in jedi knight 1.

 

face it. 95% of all the gunners whore with the alt fire on the repeater rifle. or else they simply cannot kill with any other gun.

 

force push deals with every other heavy projectile based weapon due to their low firing speed, but against the alt fire mode on the repeater it's rather difficult due to the high power and the fast rate of fire.

 

Damn... you must HATE Quake. Fact is, even JK1 was all about the big weapons. The majority of high level players used absorb so that they could make it impossible for you to take their guns away, and they would just run the map with the concussion rifle and rail detonator.

 

This game is no different... the high kills are going to go to the players that know the map well enough to get to a heavy hitting weapon faster than anyone else, and have the ability to keep other players from having said weapons.

 

The idealist Jedi fan may think this game should be different, but it isn't. As more and more people learn the fastest ways to dispatch their targets in JK2, the more and more you are going to see that the Light Saber in TFFA, FFA, CTF and 1v1 (with guns) games is just a support weapon to use while you go in search of guns, ammo, and powerups.

 

Essobie

[Vanor]

Really?

 

Maybe things changed but on the zone when I played JK1 the vast majority of the games where NF Sabers. Gun games where rather rare typicaly.

[Daxonn]

Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

No I don't agree, and it sounds as if you're the one playing against n00bs. You're forgetting the primary advantage of the saber over guns: it can't be reflected back in your teeth. Plus, the alt-fire on the repeater is only useful at medium range and less than that if your target is above you. Anyone with force speed or dark rage can close that distance quckly enough to force pull your n00b cannon. And no, a gun lamer can't keep his weapon from being pulled no matter what force powers he has.

 

Absorb doesnt stop you from pulling?

 

Ok, i know we all hoped Raven would make it perfectly balanced so that sabers could compete with guns.... but what if there was simply a mistake and the heavy repeater alt fire is just too good? So many saber idealists truly want to believe that if enough practice and technique is put into the saber that it can destroy all!! well maybe its just not true, maybe there truly is an imbalance in the game. i for one think that between an equally good repeater user and an equally good saber user the repeater user will win at least 75% of the time. That's just my experience so far, and maybe i'll be proved wrong over time... but some of you saber fanatics should stop and think that maybe it's just imbalanced and needs to be fixed which is what the thread starter was suggesting..

[Jedi-Bert]

what if the force points for guns thing was more like the lightsaber then just chosing guns

example:

what if there lots of weapons spread without points invested, then the spread gets better as you invest, and its easier to hit?

[paulbob]

MP Imbalance Issue: Guns vs Sabers

 

Ideas/suggestions for balancing:

 

1. A new Force skill for guns so that players must explicitly choose whether to be saberists or gunners. (Anyone play System Shock 2? )

 

2. Temporary loss or degradation of force powers. i.e. all force powers of a player with a gun drawn lose one level or max at level 2. (i.e. when a player takes out a weapon, level 3 drain goes to level 2 etc)

 

3. Backpedal speed reduced so that gunners can't run away from an oncoming saberist and still be able to shoot

 

4. Force Pull vs guns success rate tweaked? I'm not exactly sure how it works, what the factors are that affect the success rate, etc. Pulling guns away (ie from Storm Troopers) works a lot more often in single player than in multiplayer

 

5. Ability to ban certain weapons or force powers

 

6. Tone down the damage on certain weapons like alt-fire repeater

 

7. anything else? feel free to cut/paste/add to the list in any thread etc

[Seyvern]

I agree, in MP, guns >> sabers, if, for no other reason, that a player who only spends ForcePoints on level 1 off, 1def, and 0 saber throw, has that much more to use on other abilities. The backpeddling and other issues are all valid as well.

 

My solution (gunners are gonna hate this but deal) - after winning the SP game, i started over at jedi master difficulty, but with realisticSaberCombat on. Fighting Jedi with sabers- quite difficult, but if i touch a stormtrooper with the saber - instant ALPO.

 

Now, if you switch MP games to a similar situation, the game would get pretty interesting. Sabres still have to cut through shields, at the same damage rating they currently do. Once your shields are down tho, touch sabre = ALPO.

 

End result, Gunners are still powerful at range, but if they get force pulled in or stall, boom, dogfood.

 

Would make for some fast gory games at least

[Mattman]

That's not a bad idea, Seyvern. As we've seen in the movies, sabers can easily cut through the most solid of metals. Flesh should be no problem. Yet, I find it ludicrous that when I run up and slash a gunner clean through with medium stance, that it does not kill him... If you ask me, it's the saber that's been nerfed in MP.

 

That's another solution: If your gunning, the saber is instantly deadly with a head or body slash, any stance. That's the way it works for storm troopers in SP.

 

That secondary repeater has got to be fixed in any situation though... It's simply undodgable in a crowded room. Way too powerful, way too large a blast radius, at way too high a rate of fire. I'd say 2 of the 3 above need to be reduced...

[fgStratus]

quote:

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Originally posted by fgStratus

Guns are meant to be and are in actuality better than sabers. If you disagree then you need to find more competent players. A thrown saber deals 30 damage, leaves you open to fire, uses up force, and is slow, whereas the imperial repeater's alt fire deals significantly more damage, fires faster than can be force-pushed, and is nearly impossible to avoid without force jump unless the assailant misses with it.

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No I don't agree, and it sounds as if you're the one playing against n00bs. You're forgetting the primary advantage of the saber over guns: it can't be reflected back in your teeth. Plus, the alt-fire on the repeater is only useful at medium range and less than that if your target is above you. Anyone with force speed or dark rage can close that distance quckly enough to force pull your n00b cannon. And no, a gun lamer can't keep his weapon from being pulled no matter what force powers he has.

 

-It seems as if you are looking at EXTREMELY specific instances in which a saber is better, and then lumping them together as if they'd fit. Alt-Fire on repeater is effective on nearly every map except streets of nar shadda because all the other maps favor crowded areas. Now, remember that he has just as many, if not more, force powers available to him than you do. Force speed is useless vs a competent gun user. With 3 ranks in it, you move 50% faster. Wow. So now all of his shots are suddenly going to miss you because his sensitivity is too low to keep up with your blazing rocketman speed (sarcasm.) He's going to hit you regardless ofwhether you force speed or not, to assume that he won't is to assume incompetence, in which case I could just assume that if I chase the gun user he'll back up off a cliff and die. And yes, a "gun lamer [can] keep his weapon from being pulled no matter what force power he has." Force drain has a longer range than the effective range on force pull. Guns also have a longer range than the effective range on force pull. Thus, you will need to close in on him to pull, assuming that you still have force reserves. Now you're moving, which means that you can be force pushed (assuming he doesn't just knock you back with his projectile weapons.)

 

quote:

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However, the saber user is supposed to be able to make up for his downfalls by using the Force. He can then outmaneuver the gun user w/ force jump and speed, reducing his reliance on force pushing projectiles (which is hopeless since you can't really aim force-pushed projectiles, and you run out of force before he runs out of ammo.) Thus, the upside to being a Jedi and using the saber is that you have the power of "the Force."

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Your saber also reflects all blaster-class projectiles automatically assuming you have high enough saber defense.

 

-So just stand still and hope the gun user shoots himself to death? As soon as you begin a swing or use a force power other than jump you will get pummeled with shots. All he has to do is walk over, pick up any gun other than the E-11 and bowcaster because those are the only two guns that are reflected at a decently high rate.

 

quote:

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As it stands now, a gun user can do everything a jedi user can + use guns. It is nearly impossible to saber a competent gunner because he has access to EXACTLY THE SAME FORCE POWERS AS YOU. The only difference is that you have a lightsaber and he has a gun.

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...which means he can reflect any non-projectile shots without doing anything...

 

-You made a grammatical error, I assume it was unintentional. What you probably meant to say is "... which means he can reflect [shots from an E-11 and bowcaster] without [being able to do anything but move and jump].

 

quote:

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Thus, if you accept the premise that a lightsaber by itself with no force-assistance is inferior to a gun with no force-assistance, then the only logical conclusion you can reach is that, unless a lightsaber DRASTICALLY magnifies the Force powers of its wielder, the gunner has an advantage.

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...wrong. Any gun will eventually be pulled by a competant player if the gun lamer isn't killed by their own shots first.

 

-lol. The clever use of the modifier eventually seems to have been overlooked even by you. Considering the rapid output of damage nearly every gun has, and the abysmally short range of pull, you don't have the luxury of "eventually" pulling his gun.

 

 

quote:

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As it stands, there doesn't seem to be any force ability that works better with sabers than with guns. Dark Rage with guns reduces damage and increases speed, making it ideal for flag capping, and whil erecovering u can just rocket/fpush/repeater anyone coming after you.

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As stated by me and many others, force push only works against a target that is jumping, attacking or rolling. Your rocket or repeater are going to get pulled if you're not killed by your own shots first.

 

-I'm not sure exactly how what you said refers in any way to the quote you were responding to, but once again, a rocket/repeater has a longer effective range than pull.

"force push only works against a target that is jumping, attacking or rolling." Gee, that kinda sounds like what the lightsaber guy is always doing. Thanks for corroborating my point.

 

 

quote:

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If you shoot a projecitle at a Jedi and he force pushes it back to you, you can just force push it ack to him again, and since he force pushed first he'll run out of force first.

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Thought you said the repeater was too fast to push back, hmm? Remember,"...fires faster than can be force-pushed,...". If someone does manage to push it back on you, you think you'll be able to push it back while trying to gun spam?

 

-I said that the repeater alt-fires at a higher rate than force-push. In other words, in the time that it takes you to force push, recover, then force push again, I can fire 3 consecutive energy-ball-things.

"you think you'll be able to push it back while trying to gun spam?" Once more, assuming incompetence on the part of the gunner... and you believe that I'm the one playing newbies? Its just as easy for the gunner to push the projectile back as it is for the force user. You simply let go of mouse2 then press whatever you have push bound to.

 

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Invisibility is ideal with guns considering that the only damaging swing available with the lightsaber is offensive stance which is nearly impossible to hit with against a target that is moving away from you,

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Assume that I'm not a n00b and don't try to go invisible right in front of you. The whole point of invisibility is remaining undetected. You can't move away from me if you don't know where i am.

 

-In terms of probability, the chances of me moving away from you are infinitely greater than the chances of me moving towards you on any given map. Also, a gun user has more access to the force since he can give up his 6 ranks in saber offense/defense (or 9 if you count throw), leaving him plenty of room for force sight. And assuming you do sneak up on the gun user who decided to stand still and catch his breath. Then what? You do your most powerful swing (second to the long jumping swing because that reveals you too early both by sound and by the fact that your primary attack on the first jump will reveal you) and you take out his shields and maybe some of his life. GJ. Then he fires a shot into you while you're recovering, knocking you back a few yards, then continues his altspam. OR, since you are apparently the "clever" type, you could invis up to him and force pull his gun away, in which case he switches over to his next gun and blows you up again while you're recovering from the pull.

 

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and, evne if you do it, you will lose invisibility and he will be able to force drain you to regain life and keep u from invising again,

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And if I drain you first?

 

-As soon as you drain I can pummel you with shots because your saber stops blocking. Also, if the two players were equal, the drains would go off at the same time leaving both players with no force. Now who wins?

 

 

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then blast the hell out of you with his full auto secondary fire repeater spam.

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You're assuming I haven't managed to pull it.

 

-oh god not this arrogant crap again

 

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My solution?

-You could take the Jedi Knight1 Mysteries of the Sith approach by creating "classes", with each class having various gun and force restrictions.

-Wielding a gun would decrease the rank of all your force powers by 1 (not vice versa w/ lightsabers adding 1). Thus, you wouldn't be able to jump as high, your push would be less effective etc.

-Wielding a gun would prevent or slow force regeneration.

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Nah. Schooling gun lamers is huge fun. Especially since, as a general rule, they completely suck at saber fighting. Nerf gun use any more and we won't have great debates like this one!

 

Also, you've completely left out use of the inventory items. Sentry guns, seeker drones and force fields can be used to great effect against the gun lamer. I can plant a sentry gun or use a seeker drone that will be shooting at you constantly and with very high precision while reflecting your impotent blaster shots or force pushing your projectiles. Remember, you can't push them and you can't reflect them off your shiny gun.

 

-For one, the fact that you label gun users as "lamers" already sets the condescending attitude you have towards them, signifying a lack of respect for and understanding of their capabilities and advantages which is relfected throughout your post. Secondly, I am not asking guns to be nerfed, I am asking the use of the FORCE WITH THE USE OF GUNS to be addressed. Finally, a sentrygun is a defensive emplacement. Since the gunner has the range, it is useless. He backs up out of the range and shoots you. GG. In fact, your entire argument about having access to the INVENTORY is invalid since the gun user has equal access to it.

[fgStratus]

I'd like to once more stress that what I am looking for in JK2 is akin to a Jedi vs Boba-Fett-esque bounty hunter equilibrium, as opposed the current jedi vs jedi with a rocket launcher scenario.

[Guest PissedJedi]

after slapping the bits of out of folks in 2 hours of ffa today. I can see partially what you guys are complaining about.. but...

 

The truth is from my experience the game is balanced.

 

if you don't use all the items and powers available to you and weapons you will not do well.

 

There are checks and balances for everything.

 

IF you Want to stick to only Sabre.. Then only play on ffa games that all Duels.

 

OR Duel only games period.

 

I racked up about 15 frags using the detonator pack alone.

 

It was easy to rack-em up because like you guys said.. Folks Rushed straight for certain items. And those who were predictable were easy prey.

 

If you mix up your skills and weapons for the right time you will do well.

 

also.. you don't have to stand in place. I used 90% of the time Force jump. That was it. And I had no problems against folks who use force grip or lightning or push or pull.

 

It's all about timing. And patience. Without those 2 things you will not do well.