Top Priority

[stellerwinds]

These are the things I hope to see both patched and mod'ed to turn JK2 multiplayer into the best thing on earth.

 

Movement

 

Running speed should be decreased. Somewhere between the current walking and running speed. I would go with:

Foward speed: 3/4 of current speed

Sideways speed: 2/3 of current speed

Backwards speed: 1/2 of current speed

Combat should be precise, not running around like spazzes. Something like you find in CS, where aiming and tactics are more important than spazomania style movement.

 

The roll should retain its current speed but should only move you half the distance it currently does. Rolling now takes you too far away. It should be used as a quick dodge not a method of traveling 12 feet in a second.

Chaining rolls together should also not be allowed. After a roll you cant roll again for a second or two. People using the roll as a method of traveling around the map is just plain stupid.

 

Jumping works fine. Running up walls and flipping off them is great.

 

Add a force dodge. Double tap side step or combine a roll and jump, whatever works best as a button combo. Force dodge should be a dive in a direction which ends in a roll. It should take you about 1.5 the distance the current roll does at around the same speed. But it should take force energy like a force jump would. This would be used for evading weapons fire and eplosions or making a quick escape. The animation would be something like the sideways angle while you are doing a high force jump only just off the ground, ending in a roll.

 

Saber combat

 

First off fix the broken red moves. You know what i mean. The lingering effects of being hit when the saber is obviously not hitting you. Like approaching someone from behind after they've executed a death from above and their saber is still stuck in the ground, yet you get hurt walking up to them from Behind while their saber is in Front of them. Or being hit from swings when the saber hasnt even swung yet or has finished swinging or just plain misses and you are off to the side. And no this isnt related to lag.

 

After that we need to increase the saber complexity slightly. I suggest using a second alt-mode for each saber style as the defensive stance. While in defensive stance you block 100% of the shots directed at your front arc just as is currently done with force defensive saber skill(low skill small arc, large skill larger arc). Only that in defensive stance you can only move at walking speed.

When not in defensive stance you are in normal stance. You can swing or not swing while in normal stance as you do now. Only your defensive blocking is 50% of what it would currently be, depending on your force defensive skill.

So. Activate defensive stance and your speed is reduced to walking but you block at 100% skill. Swing your saber and/or go into normal stance and your blocking is reduced to 50% skill.

It would probably be better to increasing the blocking effectiveness arc as well. To make defensive stance even more sturdy a defense.

 

Weapons

 

Holy crap. What is with the lame quake and halflife weapons. I thought this was star wars. Get rid of the rocket launcher, the fletches gun, the magnetic gun, and the repeater's alt-mode. Spaming idiotic huge explosions is not what star wars is about. I wonder why storm troopers were always fighting with blasters. I really doubt it was because they were so poor that they couldnt get their hands on repeaters and giant explosion guns. Again star wars featured precise combat not insano classic deathmatch. Explosions should be limited to thermo detanators, trip mines and the timed explosive packs.

 

Some great mod weapons would be a heavy stationary blaster. Like the troopers set up to fire on the falcon as it escaped tattooine. Grappling guns wouldn't be out of line but they would have to opperate in a sensible way. Small rocket guns, like fett's small rockets, would have a nice appeal, instead of giant quake style rockets. Again star wars was about precise weapons. Even the death star was a giant precise laser! Quit with this classic FPS weapons of spam crap.

 

Force powers

 

Alright the powers are all very well done. But they make multiplayer insane!

Although this could very easily be solved by not playing on jedi master servers and trying for a more refined simply jedi setting.

Even so i'll run down the powers in a generic sense.

 

Push/pull. These powers work well but they are too frivolously used. I would suggest making them powered up powers. Meaning that you need to hold down on your use-force button to charge them up. The longer you charge them the more effective they are according to your skill in them. Also the longer the charge the more force used. So they should opperate at their current full effectiveness, full charge, at something like 65% of your force reserves. This should take about a second and a half to charge.

 

Drain/heal. I have a simple fix here. Drain and heal should replenish shield hitpoints instead of health. That might seem to make no sense but then wearing personal shields makes no sense. No on in star wars ever had such devices. I never saw a single instance that would suggest jedi have the power to heal themselve with the force however. It makes more sense that their force powers would replenish a type of personal shielding. This would affoard healers a measure of replenishing their defenses without the absurdity of being able to take 20 saber slashes without ever needing to see a doctor.

 

Mods or add-ons

 

Force Ability should be a skill. This could make a nice mod but would also still fit nicely into the standard game.

Force ability would basically be your personal jedi rank.

At no force ability you are basically a storm trooper or rebel or whatever. You can't use the force but can use every weapon you come across. Can't use a saber because that takes force skill.

At rank 1 you are a jedi or padiwan or whatever. But you get something like 2 or 3 weapons in addition to the saber if you choose that skill. And then get 35% of the total force points possible from the server settings.

At rank 2 you are allowed 1 standard weapon and get 65% the total force points avaible from the settings.

At rank 3 you are allowed no standard weapons and receive 100% the force points available.

Also you should see a quicker force recovery for each of the ranks.

So personal padiwan rank has 50% the recovery speed, jedi has 100% recovery and jedi master has 150% recovery speed.

 

And those are my recommendations.

[Voldos]

wow slow down there m8 the games only been out a month or so any patch coming out wont be any time soon!

not even the tools are out yet so i dunno why ure giving us a list of patch fixes:explode:

[DannyDiplo]

I like the idea of dodging. As a veteran UT player I instinctively double-tap the strafe keys to dodge, and always feel disapointed when it doesn't happen

[stellerwinds]

Because its better to get ideas out sooner rather than later.

[reserved_name]

there is currently a delay between 2 rolls, there is a short period when you cant move at all.. its not a fast way to move around maps, strafe jumping is much faster

 

and about the guns, i think they are very smartly done, for example i think the rocket launcher is probably the best i have seen in any game (Deus Ex and Half-Life are close), its not too spammy and not too fast.. disruptor rifle is good only for what it is made for, i.e. sniping because if you move the scope goes away, and the primary fire isnt very effective.. flechette is very effective at close range but almost completely useless at long range, demp gun has one of the strangest secondary fires i have seen (primary fire is a bit like plasma gun from quake 3), and well heavy repeater is a great middle/short range weapon, and even the 2 blasters and bowcaster have their uses

[stellerwinds]

Have a foot race with a roller. You'll see that even with the delay the roller is faster. Thats just wrong.

[Voldos]

but surely wen the time comes and they r looking on the boards to c wot ppl want improovd etc this post will b long gon?

[gaeb]

Answering one piece at a time:

 

WEAPONS

 

 

Weapons are fine, with the exception of the alt-fire on the Repeater. It shoots too quickly.

 

I wonder why storm troopers were always fighting with blasters. I really doubt it was because they were so poor that they couldnt get their hands on repeaters and giant explosion guns. Again star wars featured precise combat not insano classic deathmatch.

 

If you want a reasoned counter argument to the fantasy world example you gave (Storm Troopers and Heavy Weapons) the reason is that lasers are surgical. From a commander's point of view, imagine the effect of your troops running around the Death Star with explosives heavy enough to blow holes in walls. Lasers are surgical and single shot. You shoot a man without inflicting severe damage on the enviroment. There. A fantasy counter-argument to your fantasy argument. In the real world, you'll note that despite the abundance of explosive weapons, a Soldier's primary weapon remains a semi-automatic or fully automatic pistol or rifle - because they are surgical weapons. We have plenty of rockets, bazookas, grenade launchers, land mines, plastic explosives, and flame throwers in our armory - but we don't give them to our soldiers unless we want the target obliterated, and to hell with property damage. Considering the effect of property damage is important - and one could imagine that it would be even more critical in a Space Station, where mission-critical machinery is behind every bulkhead.

 

For the game itself - Look. It's a game. The weapons are fairly balanced. Yes, explosives are the best way to get kills in FFA. Of course they are. The same way Force Destruction, Rail Gun, and Conc rifle were in JK1. The COOL thing is that in this game, you have a counter to any weapon you can see coming (block or push) with the notable exception of Repeater Alt-Fire, which fires at a higher rate than the shots can be pushed back. That is the only change I'd ask for, other than perhaps some increased accuracy in both modes on the stormtrooper rifle.

 

- Gaeb

 

(More arguments to follow)

[stellerwinds]

Gaeb, there were too many instances of warfare and combat in star wars that proved that surgical was the Only way they did things. The AT-ATs did not fire tons of missles or area effect weapons. They were giant armored behemoths with precise laser cannon. EVERYthing in star wars was of this precise nature. It had nothing to do with worrying about damaging bulkheads.

 

The pull of star wars was this very "personalized" method of combat and warfare. Your enemy was always visable as shooting directly at you. Unlike something like true WWII combat when you are being shelled and never see your enemy. That is nitty gritty realism that wouldnt fit in star wars. So why do we see this overpowered weapons stuff in multiplayer when it should be more personal and surgical.

 

Also in multiplayer we arent talking about armies fighting. We are talking about squad based battle if anything. This should be epitomized as the classic stormtroopers vs rebels battles of laser vs laser not quake bombs and explosions.

 

Although that would probably all fit better into a mod. But some mp weapons are just plain too chaotic and ruin the flavor completely. This is still about star wars even without a mod.

[gaeb]

MOVEMENT

 

I agree and disagree with a bunch of your points.

 

Rolling is fine.

Foward motion is fine.

Sideways movement could be slightly reduced. (80%)

Backwards movement should indeed be reduced. (50%)

Force dodge seems to be a good idea.

 

SABER COMBAT

 

Half the 'bugs' in Heavy Combat are probably due to lag spikes. His screen says he's facing you and hitting you. Your screen says his back is to you. Considering how fast you can whip around with the mouse, lag is a definite problem in saber combat.

 

"Defense" - Make a mod. Don't ask them to redesign and rebalance the game from scratch, sheesh!

 

FORCE POWERS

 

Of course they make multiplayer insane! That's the fun!

 

Push/Pull : I think these were well thought out and implimented. They are their own counters, they will be automatically countered unless their target is already occupied or doesn't have the appropriate skills. That is very impressive design, IMO.

 

Drain/Heal : For the context of the game, these are well thought out and need minor tweaking ( recast delay and range on drain, recast delay and cost on heal) and that's it.

 

Personally, I'm more annoyed with Jedi Sight and Speed. You can't get force back while these are turned on. I can tap sight, but if I'm low on Force, I will STAY low on Force for the next 30 seconds. That is a balance problem, IMO. Speed is the same basket - if you turn it on, you must either turn it off or wait 30 seconds before gaining ANY force back. And with the lack of the Force powerups that were abundant in JK1 in MP maps, being low on Force can be a severe handicap.

 

 

- Gaeb

[Vorax]

I personally like the MP the way it is, but some of the things you are suggesting can actually be done with server settings.

 

Player speed: g_speed xxx

 

Default is 250, try it with 200, 175 or lower

 

Weapons: When the GDK is out, you will see lots of new maps that don't have the rocket or the flachette. I don't want to get rid of them, but it would be nice to have more maps that don't have them.

 

Saber Combat: Alot of what you described is indeed lag. Not your lag persay, likely the guy attacking you. The server makes decisions about it hits. A fast saber swings takes between 200 and 500ms, someone with a lag over that will cause weird hit detection. Hard stance takes much longer so again, lag will exagerate it even more. Try a LAN game, you don't see those problems. Although, Strong stance is a bit over done

 

 

Force Powers: Ok, they make MP insane, but that just makes it more fun Jedi, at least in the movies, use push and pull at will, seems fair to have it in the game the same way. I do think the heal is kinda lame, I never use it, but hey...to each his own.

 

Your Mod suggestion: Interesting, but not entirely sure how it would be implemented because you would have to start as a trooper rank everytime you connected. How in 20 mins or less could you become a Jedi Master? If the server maintained your skill setting, the newbies wouldn't stand a chance. They would be whipped out like the 'Red Shirts' in star trek...cannon fodder.

 

Also, I think it would be very open to cheats, hacks to increase your skill level.

 

If you can think of way to implement it though, post a reply, I am with Wired Lamp Studios, doing mods for the game.

 

- Vorax

[stellerwinds]

Some nice counter points. Only you are wrong about the saber problems.

 

I'm kind tired of hearing this explained away as lag. As i play with a 30 ping on duel servers with only 6 people. There are many that know these problems for the true problems they are but still too many people are saying lag when they have not witnessed these problems first hand or they personally might have lag problems. The game is still new so it might take some of you a while before you finally realize that this is Not a lag issue at all.

 

Arg. Lag might be a problem for some but it doesnt explain some of the heavy stance problems. I play with a 30 ping against other 30 ping people and we still see this problem.

 

Just try approaching someone After they complete a death from above attack, from the Behind. You still get hurt...

[stellerwinds]

Originally posted by Vorax

Your Mod suggestion: Interesting, but not entirely sure how it would be implemented because you would have to start as a trooper rank everytime you connected. How in 20 mins or less could you become a Jedi Master? If the server maintained your skill setting, the newbies wouldn't stand a chance. They would be whipped out like the 'Red Shirts' in star trek...cannon fodder.

 

No no. You dont gain skill you choose it when you join. Do you want to be either a non-jedi or a form of jedi. Like a class system.

[Vorax]

As I said, it's not your lag, it's the other guys lag. It doesn't happen on LAN games. That sorta thing happens in all Quake 3 games. The fact that you have a 30 ping explains the point. You don't have lag, so you are seeing it very differently. The server is taking both sides into account.

 

like this:

 

Your ping: 30

Your opponent: 200 ping

 

Actual lag of his actions to you is 230ms. Server opperates on a cyle 20 times a second, 5ms.

 

Ohther guy swings: it sends data to the server

 

- At 150ms, half way through the swing (from his view), his computer registers a hit and sends it to the server, but the server still doesn't even know he swung.

 

- Server recieves the swing: 200 ms after it happened, (he is now 2/3s done the swing from his view and has already hit you)

 

- You receive it from server at: 230 ms (his ping + your ping)

 

- At 250 ms the server recieves the hit data

 

- you haven't yet moved. Average human reaction time is 100-200ms. 100 for good players

 

- Server looks at the last position of your character, it is still in that spot

 

- You jump out of the way say it took you 100ms to react. From your view he is still winding up for the swing. but from the servers view, this is long after the fact.

 

- From your view you have just dodged the bullet, but from the servers view you were hit.

 

- The server sends a hit notification to you. You take damage but it looks like you were in the clear and the guy hadn't even really swung yet.

 

[EDIT]I am gonna quailify what I said. I haven't studied the design of MP servers in several years, so I could be wrong, but I think the basics still apply. There could be something strange about how Raven did the damage area around the saber, or the target area around the models that could also explain some things, but that sorta stuff is kinda hard to mess up.[/EDIT]

 

- Vorax

[Vorax]

Originally posted by stellerwinds

Some nice counter points. Only you are wrong about the saber problems.

 

I'm kind tired of hearing this explained away as lag. As i play with a 30 ping on duel servers with only 6 people. There are many that know these problems for the true problems they are but still too many people are saying lag when they have not witnessed these problems first hand or they personally might have lag problems. The game is still new so it might take some of you a while before you finally realize that this is Not a lag issue at all.

 

Arg. Lag might be a problem for some but it doesnt explain some of the heavy stance problems. I play with a 30 ping against other 30 ping people and we still see this problem.

 

Just try approaching someone After they complete a death from above attack, from the Behind. You still get hurt...

 

Ok, 30 against 30 is strange. You are right. You shouldn't really see much of this kinda thing with those pings, the odd ping spike might do it, but not on a regular basis.

 

- Vorax

[gaeb]

I'm kind tired of hearing this explained away as lag. As i play with a 30 ping on duel servers with only 6 people. There are many that know these problems for the true problems they are but still too many people are saying lag when they have not witnessed these problems first hand or they personally might have lag problems.

 

Which is why I said (quote) 'half the problems' are probably lag. I haven't experienced enough multiplayer to come to an objective decision on Heavy Stance yet. And this is why:

 

You do realize that in Force-enabled games (the games the saber was balanced around) you have to PAY for the ability to use that "ultra slow" "buggy" attack method. The ability costs 8 more points to use. For that cost, you get a stance that should be "better" than light and medium. Yet it has a "worse" defensive rating. And it's offense is so slow it's incredibly easy to dodge. So how does that justify sinking 8 points for this skill?

 

No Force duels throw the fact out the window that the power was designed with a cost. Some of that 'bugginess' may be intentional. That's the point of 'balancing' skills.

 

 

WEAPONS (again)

 

The Death Star was not a surgical weapon. Nor the Sun Crusher. Nor the Dark Saber. Neither is a Thermal Detanator - which, I'd always assumed, had enough power to blow Jabba's entire fortress apart. It didn't make sense for everyone in the room to worry if it was only going to hurt one or two people. A miniature nuke on a dead-man's switch would be a real cause for worry, so that's what I assumed the detanator was.

 

Another thought is that the Storm Troopers are putting down a rebellion, not fighting a war. For the Rebels it was a war, for the Empire it was crushing a rebellion - which you have to do with the public media watching you the entire time. They blamed the Rebels for blowing up Alderaan (smart PR move) and their "Defenseless mining station" ... etc etc etc. Star Wars certainly did have heavy weaponry - but no context in which the heroes faced it. The Death Stars and Thermal Detanators were as close as it came.

 

 

 

THOUGHTS FOR RAVEN:

 

Drain and Heal need to be hit with some balancing. Drain does have a great range and is easy to spam. Heal is fast and easy to spam. I'd either up the cost of Heal or create a recast delay, and with Drain either lower the range or create a recast delay (BUT NOT BOTH in EITHER case.)

 

Sight & Speed : It's painful not to regain Force while these are up. Was that intentional?

 

Absorb + Protect : Is it possible for the 'flickering aura' to only appear AFTER an attack has hit the person, and have it fade after 5 seconds? IE say they're up for 30 seconds, when you activate it the sound goes off (So anyone listening will still hear it, as a heal or bacta canister) but no visible change will happen. If someone hits you with drain/grip, the blue absorb aura will appear. Likewise with Protect.

 

Repeater : Alt-Fire needs an increased delay.

 

Heavy Stance : Careful tuning... I personally wouldn't make too much change to it. The 8 point cost for the "Most Powerful" attack style ought to be justified. The other styles have very powerful special attacks, and better defense to boot.

 

Walking Backward and Bunny Hopping : If you fix just two movement issues, these are the ones I'd beg for. Walking backward should be slower, bunny hopping should be eliminated. Add a tiny delay (0.1 seconds) where you can't move when you land, if need be. A lot of the game has "recovery time" built into it, and it makes for more strategical fights.

 

 

Great game. Looking forward to mods.

 

- Gaeb