Luke/Leia separated at birth? *no spoilers*

[TheDarkSide]

Anyone else interested as to how this all gets worked out???

 

From the original trilogy the following facts, and plot surprises are known:

 

1) Until that fateful, appendage losing day, Luke has no knowledge that Vader is his dad, although Obi-Wan does. Another way of looking at this, is that Luke has no knowledge that Anakin, his father, is also Darth Vader (read further for the relevance)

 

2) While Obi-Wan knows about Vaders/Lukes relationship, he doesn’t have a clue that Leia and Luke are siblings, whereas Yoda DOES. (reference ESB when Luke leaves Dagobah, Ben says, that boy is our last hope, and Yoda admonishes him pensively…No, there is another).

 

3) Vader doesn’t know that Luke has a sister until their climactic battle in RoTJ where Luke’s thoughts have “betrayed” him. Luke didn’t know for sure until Ben clued him in earlier on Dagobah. Given their ESB extended kiss at Hoth, I’m sure Luke promptly hurled his guts out.

 

4) Vader apparently doesn’t know that Luke is his son in ANH, but somewhere between Yavin and the Bespin Carbon Freeze chamber, he figures it out.

 

5) Obi Wan tells Luke in RoTJ that Luke and Leia were separated as twins to protect them from Vader. (Guessing Yoda filled him in after their little Dagobah conversation up in point #2)

 

 

So one of the really big questions for me (in Episode III, I am betting) is how these plots get resolved. Especially since I’ve seen Lucas say in numerous interviews, that when the prequel trilogy is done, he wants all 6 movies to flow in continuity and have none of the plot surprises of the original trilogy be given away in the prequels. I.E. Someone who has never heard of Star Wars, will be able to start with Episode I and go all the way through to Episode VI without having any of the big plot twists revealed.

 

So to summarize (perhaps a bit more succinctly), how do the twins get separated in such a way that

 

a) Vader/Anakin doesn’t even know that he had any offspring until 25 yrs later.

 

b) Yoda knows about both, and Obi-wan only knows about Luke.

 

c) Neither of siblings knows about each other.

 

 

 

 

Additionally, and this may be more interesting, how does one complete Episode III without giving away the fact that Anakin Skywalker = Darth Vader. Remember that Lucas is wanting to maintain plot twists and continuity when the trilogy is viewed as a whole. If you know Anakin is Vader in Ep III, it takes all the fire out of the ESB humdinger that Vader and Luke are father/son.

 

Ideas, thoughts, theories?

[mima kake]

good question.

 

and why does ob 1 doesn't recall ever seeing r2 before

(without saying that he tells he never owned him)

 

 

mima

[R!zz0]

If Lucas doesn't want any plots twists revealed, how come that Episode I poster showing Anakin's shadow in the form of Vader was used? Surely that gives the lot away (although, if you just watch the films then you will never know this).

[Plan9]

Umm, in the almost final scene, right before the Battle Between Vader and Luke, Vader says:

 

"Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me". Implaying that obi-wan did, indeed know that Luke had a sister.

 

And I wouldn't think that it would be too hard for Vader to figure out that Luke is his son. Considering his last name is: wow! Skywalker! =P

[TheDarkSide]

Vader says: "Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me". Implying that obi-wan did, indeed know that Luke had a sister

 

True, but don't forget he was reading lukes mind as he's saying this. Luke heard the news from Ben, so maybe that had something to do with it. If Obi-wan really did hide her, then making that comment to Yoda on Dagobah in ESB makes him look like an alzheimers patient.

 

 

 

And I wouldn't think that it would be too hard for Vader to figure out that Luke is his son. Considering his last name is: wow! Skywalker!

 

Yeah, it shouldn't, but there are a few scenarios that could make this somewhat plausible. I'm guessing that Anakins big duel with Obi-wan may not only leave him physically torn up, but might wreak some havoc on him mentally. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth vader. Maybe when the Emporer finds him and saves him, there is some sort of force brainwashing that goes on that wipes out all there was of him before. See what I'm getting at? Reprogrammed to be Vader type of deal. This would also maybe explain how Vader doesn't know he has any offspring.

 

The way I see it, several things have to happen in a very quick timeframe.

 

1) The Skywalker twins are born.

2) Anakin turns to the dark side.

3) Anakin and Obi-wan duel, Anakin ends up left for dead in a lava pit, Emp comes along, saves him, creating Lord Vader in the process

4) Vader exterminates all the Jedi.

 

I list this as all stuff I've heard from Lucas himself in one interview or another as to what to expect from Ep III:

potential spoilers follow, but pretty much the obvious...

 

 

1) All the jedi except yoda and obi-wan will be dead by the end of EP III.

 

2) James Earl Jones (the voice of vader) has been cast for Ep III, but will only be used for the last 10 minutes of the movie.

 

3) The birth of the twins may or may not be shown in Ep III.

 

 

 

So come on fellow Star wars geeks....let me hear your theories!

[Jedi_Monk]

Alright! I shall answer the call! Here's my theory:

Now, according to some of the spy-talk I've been hearing concerning SW2, Padme Amidala really doesn't want to get involved with Anakin; they haven't seen eachother since Anakin left for the Jedi Temple and probably still thinks of him as that little sweet-talking kid she humored on Tatooine. But then, he becomes her bodyguard and in the adventures that follow, she's pulled into a relationship with him. They probably do it when she's in a time of extreme emotional vulnerability and very soon before Anakin is sucked into the Dark Side. He turns probably just a few months into her pregnency, before it's obvious and Obi-Wan takes her away so that Anakin won't drag her down with him.

 

Obi-Wan is there when Luke and Leia are born and helps deliver them. Under Yoda's advice, he takes Luke back to Tatooine with him to guard and hopefully teach one day. Meanwhile, something bad has happened to Naboo. It's probably going to be central to the Clone Wars seeing as how a) Palpatine is from there and served as their senatorial reprisentative before be was Chancellor, and b) Anakin will want to find Padme. These two factors will mean either a complete eradication of Naboo or at the very least make it impossible for Padme to return.

 

I do not foresee Anakin and Padme getting married, and this will probably be pivitol to Anakin turning. He will be denied the right to marry the woman he loves and turn against the Jedi because of it. Also, this opens another plot device that is indicated in the original trilogy: Padme and Bail Organa will marry and Leia will be raised as their daughter.

 

Another possibility is that Padme posing as a handmaiden in Episode I will be a smoking gun--she will resume the role of a handmaiden for the Royal Family on Alderaan. Leia will be raised as the daughter of Bail and his wife and Padme will be Leia's nursemaid until she dies early in Leia's life. Will they show in Episode III what happens to Padme? It's really anyone's guess.

 

So, that's the direction I think it's going to go in.

[Pol Favre]

just gonna stick this in, i didn't read but the first post: the emperor calls luke the sun of skywalker in ESB. was this before or after bespin? i thought before, but i could be wrong.

[Jedi_Monk]

just gonna stick this in, i didn't read but the first post: the emperor calls luke the sun of skywalker in ESB. was this before or after bespin? i thought before, but i could be wrong.

It was before Bespin. And according to the comic book Vader's Quest, Vader was after the identity of the person who destroyed the Death Star, nothing more. In Splinter of the Mind's Eye, he came face-to-face with Luke and didn't even realize who he was beyond that he was the one who destroyed the Death Star. Anyway, in Vader's Quest, some of the bounty-hunters Vader hired found out that the person who destroyed the Death Star was named Skywalker. They had no idea that Skywalker was Vader's real name, so they didn't know what hit them when Vader massicred every one of them to keep the information from getting to the Emperor. But the Emperor found out because, well, he's got his own ways of finding things out.

[Lithium]

Maybe the reason that Obi says he is our final hope is because Leia is a chick and Obi Wan is a sexist prick... But seriously is a Princess with a light saber gonna take on the Emporer with Force Lighting????

[DarkAgent]

Originally posted by mima kake

good question.

 

and why does ob 1 doesn't recall ever seeing r2 before

(without saying that he tells he never owned him)

 

 

mima

 

Anakin built C-3PO and yet there is no recognition between Darth Vader and 3-PO in Episodes 4-6.

 

D.A.

[TheDarkSide]

Excellent post, Jedi-monk....that's what I was looking for. You make some interesting points.

 

The idea that Luke and Leia are illegitmate is an intriguing concept, but not one that is very 'kid friendly'. Maybe Anakin and Padme will elope in direct violation of the Council's orders...what happens next I do not know.

 

 

TDS

[Jedi_Monk]

and why does ob 1 doesn't recall ever seeing r2 before

(without saying that he tells he never owned him)

What does Obi-Wan really say when he first sees R2? He said "Well hello there, little friend..." R2 bleeps at him, asking if Luke's dead, most likely. Obi-Wan replies, "Oh, don't worry, he'll be alright." They're speaking with an awful lot of familiarity. Obi-Wan never did own R2, and that's what he said. R2 was property of the Naboo starfleet and probably goes with Amidala to Alderaan. Obi-Wan never says that he doesn't know R2.

 

Anakin built C-3PO and yet there is no recognition between Darth Vader and 3-PO in Episodes 4-6.

As for 3PO. 3PO's history probably goes along the same lines as R2's, since they wind up together in ANH. Anakin built R2, leaves him on Tatooine with his mother. Retrieves 3PO while on Tatooine in Episode II and maybe he gives the Droid to Amidala. 3PO in Episode II has a very unfinished look (not so much as in Episode I, of course). I believe the gold coloring of Episode IV-VI are the result of him being either a droid serving the nobility of Naboo, or the royalty of Alderaan. And therefore, the gold plating might not be done until after he leaves Anakin. And, again, the 3PO model is very common.

 

But there are some things in Episode IV-IV that, in the context of the prequels, may suggest that Vader does recognize 3PO. He allows Chewie to attempt to fix him. Sure, Chewie rescued the droid from a scrap-heap, but, then, what was to stop Vader from just taking it by Force (pun intentional) from Chewie while the Wookiee was in custody?

 

Why doesn't 3PO recognize Vader as his maker? He's been through all the events and will probably see their conclusion, i.e., Anakin becoming Vader. Well, the answer, again, is handed to us in the Original Trilogy: Droids are constantly having memory wipes. There's no reason to expect 3PO to still have in his memory something that happened 20 years ago when standard practice was to have a droid's memory wiped every 5 years.

 

So, to sum it up, there are two possible answers to the questions posed above: In the original trilogy, either Obi-Wan and Vader do recognize the droids and do not externalize it in ways that are obvious, but when taken in context make sense--or they don't recognize the droids because of the sheer fact that there are so many of a particular model that there was no way for them to be certain that they were, in fact, the same droids.

[Biggs311]

From everything I've read online about Episode II, including the script that's online

 

 

Padme and Anakin get married in secret at the end

 

[GreyJedi]

Originally posted by Jedi_Monk

What does Obi-Wan really say when he first sees R2? He So, to sum it up, there are two possible answers to the questions posed above: In the original trilogy, either Obi-Wan and Vader do recognize the droids and do not externalize it in ways that are obvious, but when taken in context make sense--or they don't recognize the droids because of the sheer fact that there are so many of a particular model that there was no way for them to be certain that they were, in fact, the same droids.

 

Maybe those aren't the droids you're looking for.

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[ACGe0rge]

Here's my theory about Obiwan not knowing about Leia wiht his whole "that boy is our last hope" comment. I figure this could be for 2 reasons.

 

1) he never knew about Leia in the first place. He wasn't there for the birth and was only told about Luke. Vader just assumed Obiwan had something to do with Leia being hidden but was actually wrong.

 

2) Obiwan did know about Leia but there will be a plot twist that makes him believe that she is lost or killed. Either way he thinks she's not around to be trained as a jedi. Somewhere behind the scenes he's told or realizes that Leia is the lost sister.

 

On a final note, I have heard rumors that Lucas may reedit the original trilogy again. He's apparetly planning on adding a few more scenes that were cut and even might film some new scenes with characters form Ep 1-3. Eventually there will be the Original Trilogy, The Special Edition Trilogy, and a Super Duper Special Edition Trilogy. It will be interesting to see what happens.

[TheDarkSide]

Well this afternoon, I was having a little fun with a buddy of mine quoting Vader back and forth in reference to everyday events (side track), and to pick up a few extras I went a did a search on the movie scripts. Well lo and behold, in the ROTJ script I found this!!

I don't know if you'd consider it spoiler material or not for Ep III, as it is in reality cutting room floor material from Ep VI. It's the scene after Yoda dies and Luke and Ben converse about his familial relations.

The link is here: http://www.bus.miami.edu/~jdavis/Starwars/jedi.html

The relevant scene is scene 51, and I highlighted the interesting conversation below in spoiler format. Also included is other interesting items from Ben that never made the final cut.

 

 

 

 

LUKE

Leia! Leia's my sister.

 

BEN

Your insight serves you well. Bury your

feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit.

But they could be made to serve the Emperor.

 

Luke looks into the distance, trying to comprehend all this.

 

BEN (continuing his narrative)

When your father left, he didn't know your

mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew

he would find out eventually, but we wanted

to keep you both as safe as possible, for as

long as possible. So I took you to live with

my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother

took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator

Organa, on Alderaan.

 

Luke turns, and settles near Ben to hear the tale.

 

BEN (attempting to give solace with his words)

The Organa household was high-born and

politically quite powerful in that system.

Leia became a princess by virtue of

lineage... no one knew she'd been adopted, of

course. But it was a title without real

power, since Alderaan had long been a

democracy. Even so, the family continued to

be politically powerful, and Leia, following

in her foster father's path, became a senator

as well. That's not all she became, of

course... she became the leader of her cell

in the Alliance against the corrupt Empire.

And because she had diplomatic immunity, she

was a vital link for getting information to

the Rebel cause. That's what she was doing

when her path crossed yours... for her foster

parents had always told her to contact me on

Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate.

 

Luke is overwhelmed by the truth, and is suddenly protective of

his sister.

 

LUKE

But you can't let her get involved now, Ben.

Vader will destroy her.

 

BEN

She hasn't been trained in the ways of the

Jedi the way you have, Luke ... but the Force

is strong with her, as it is with all of your

family. There is no avoiding the battle. You

must face and destroy Vader!

 

 

 

Interesting huh? It also throws in the added tie-in of owen lars.

 

TDS

[Vestril]

On a final note, I have heard rumors that Lucas may reedit the original trilogy again. He's apparetly planning on adding a few more scenes that were cut and even might film some new scenes with characters form Ep 1-3. Eventually there will be the Original Trilogy, The Special Edition Trilogy, and a Super Duper Special Edition Trilogy. It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

I also heard that, and that John Williams wants to edit the score of ANH a little to add in the Imperial March so it flows better with the others.

[Jedi_Monk]

The quote you posted is very interesting... but holds no bearing on the prequels.

 

Owen Lars is not Obi-Wan's brother, but is either Anakin's half-brother or step-brother, I haven't heard which, yet. Shmi Skywalker married Cleigg Lars while Anakin was away at the Temple, and Owen Lars was Cleigg's son, either from another marriage or his current one to Shmi.

 

So it looks like Lucas changed his mind in the last 20 years

[TheDarkSide]

Yeah I have seen that too. Notice also how Obi wan also says in that script (if u check the link):

....when I first met Anakin he was a great starfighter pilot and Itook it upon himself to train him....

 

Well we all know now that when he first met Anakin, the kid was a little runt, and Obi-wan didn't know squat about him; not to mention he only trained him once his master died and asked it of him. Hardly qualifies as "taking it upon himself".

 

Also up there, when Obi describes what happened to Leia:

 

 

He makes no reference to the fact that her mother was a senator, and makes a point of saying she follows in her step-fathers footsteps and becomes a senator.

 

 

Just thought it was an interesting little thing to come across....

(note I didn't highlight your spoiler but I'm guessing it has to do with owen not being related to obi-wan at all)

 

TDS

[Jedi_Monk]

Yeah I have seen that too. Notice also how Obi wan also says in that script (if u check the link):

....when I first met Anakin he was a great starfighter pilot and Itook it upon himself to train him....

But that part did make it into Return of the Jedi (with some modifications). "When I first met your father, he was already a great pilot and I was a impressed at how strongly the Force was with him. And so I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could do as good a job as Yoda. I was wrong..."

 

And the quote is not wrong, just a little misleading outside of the light of the prequels. Anakin was a great pilot, and Obi-Wan was obviously impressed at how strong he was potentially... stronger than Master Yoda. And Obi-Wan did take it upon himself to train Anakin, regardless of if his Master more or less told him to. He could have refused, and the rest of the Jedi Council certainly wasn't behind him.

[Vestril]

The quote you posted is very interesting... but holds no bearing on the prequels.

 

 

spoiler:

Owen Lars is not Obi-Wan's brother, but is either Anakin's half-brother or step-brother, I haven't heard which, yet. Shmi Skywalker married Cleigg Lars while Anakin was away at the Temple, and Owen Lars was Cleigg's son, either from another marriage or his current one to Shmi.

 

So it looks like Lucas changed his mind in the last 20 years

 

Just as clairification...

 

 

About 12 years passes from Ep I to II, and since Owen and Beru seem to be hanging out together, and since Owen the actor who plays Owen is more than a bit older than that, and in some of the pictures on starwars.com he has stubble...I'm pretty certain he is Anakin's Step-Brother

 

 

[Frizbee]

Anakin turned to the Dark Side and fights with Obi-Wan before he finds out his wife (??) is pregnant, thus he is nearly killed in a battle (hence the suit) before he finds that he is about to be a father (and before she starts showing a bump)

 

She later dies in childbirth, Leia is taken away, and Ben takes Luke to live on Tantooine.

 

Yes, Obi-Wan did say "He is our last hope" but he might not have considered Leia to be Jedi Material... it could have slipped his mind that she too would have the force.

 

What I want to know though.. is why he says to Luke "Your father wanted you to have this, when you were old enough."

If Vader didn't know he had children, why the heck was he telling Obi-Wan he wanted his lightsaber given to his child?

[Kev'i Haric]

OK, I know this is going to cause some disruption in commonly heald views, but here it goes...

 

At Degobah, Ben says "There goes our only hope" or whatever Yoda corrects him by saying "No, there's another".

 

Popular opinion holds that he is referring to Leia and we're baffled by why Ben didn't know about Leia.

 

What if... <assuming defensive crouch>... Yoda is referring to Vader, or maybe I should say Anakin.

 

It has been theorized around here that Vader really was the one to bring the balance to the Force by destroying the Emporer.

 

Maybe Yoda, in his infinite wisdom, knows there is good still in Vader - the good being Anakin we see at ther end of ROTJ - and is betting this will bring the Darkside's downfall.

 

Could it be possible Yoda really didn't train Luke to defeat Vader, but to be b!tch slapped around by the Emporer?

 

Might Yoda have thought that the only thing that could extract Anakin from deep w/in Vader was to see his own son suffer at the hands of his master?

 

Let's think about this rationally - I know this changes our entire concept of what happened in the original trilogy.

 

Was Luke really a patsy for the Jedi?

 

They tell him "Yeah, go beat Vader THEN you'll be a Jedi." Not before... but AFTER you beat Vader. Which in reality, he didn't do - the Emporer mortally wounded Vader.

 

Luke didn't have adequate training. He was getting by on shear strength in the Force. He was able to stand toe-to-toe w/ a hobbled, half-machine Jedi.

 

Vader was a bad ass for his time, but Maul would have spanked him.

 

Now this is purely conjecture from by part, BUT I think it deserves some discussion.

 

Go on and marinate on that for a bit...

[Guest Forceflow]

Now that is an interesting idea. (Amongst many others in that thread of course) This could really be true.

There is no hint of Leia being strong in the force in any way. (No real clue at least) And of course the books don't count on this one.

 

I don't think Yody trained Luke to be kicked by the Emperor, but that there simply was no possibility to train him so that he would face a real chance against the emperor. So maybe Yoda was referring to Annakin/Vader.

 

As vor Maul beating Vader, I don't think so. Vader might look weak, but I think he could've beaten Maul. Though of course that's just personal opinion.

[Vestril]

There is no hint of Leia being strong in the force in any way. (No real clue at least) And of course the books don't count on this one.

 

Yoda thought she was another hope for the continuation of the Order, that speaks volumes for his faith in her strength in the Force, really.

 

Vader was a bad ass for his time, but Maul would have spanked him.

 

It's easy to think so, after seeing the movies, but when you think about it Vader was MUCH stronger in the Force, and he probably could have done some gripping and other Force attacks to whup up on Maul...