Great Game Crap Saber interface!!!!

[Darth Phodis]

I love the game, but Dont you all agree that they could have come up with a degree of actual Saber control....so you can swing ~where you want to swing~, not relying on stupid key combos that ultimately lead to you spinning out of control in congested situations.

Surely they could have implemented a system whereby you could..hold a key and move the mouse "with control", of where you want to swing it.

Bound to get flamed by those that love the current system, that fluke attack sequences.....pity they arent REALLY in control when they hit you......... I can hear it now..... "I dont have any problems"... "you dont know how to play".... whatever, but deep down you know its true.

What are your thoughts???..... a patch would be great for full personal customisation....

Flame away.

[BooJediHamster]

Well in all honesty I thought the sabre system very good I do have a good amount of control once I learnt what movement combinations caused which light sabre moves and the 3 styles really helps.

 

I think it's one of the things that makes the game, along with the force powers.

 

Of course that's in single player, in multiplayer it's a different story. There I do feel a lack of sabre control so to speak.

 

I don't see how your idea would work in practice as it would be fine if you where fighting while standing still, but would be very much a problem if you wanted to run, roll, dodge or flip through the air at the same time. All of which you can do with the current system.

 

Mostly if you feel out of control in single player I think you need to practice more.

[cistern]

Actually, I kinda agree more with Darth Phodis in terms of multiplayability. Add to the fact that the CPL might take up JKII as one of the lineups, I seriously feel there should be an amount of control over the saber swings.

 

Take any stance for example. Pressing the attack button yields random swings everytime. While this might not seem so critical in SP games, in MP, EVERY SWING COUNTS.

 

The randomness of the swings while allows for variety in SP games, does not apply too well with MP. The unpredictability of the saber swings will amount to what people call 'fake' kills. What we're asking here is simply, does the player deserve that frag. Lucky attemps may happen but if half of the time we're depending on kills like this, it might cause some players to return to games where erm... more accuracy and timing is concerned. (Alright not to say there isn't any timing and accuracy with the current saber system but there are games out there i think that requires more consistency of aim/timing you know *hint* qua*cough*ke *hint*)

 

 

My Proposed System

 

 

What I feel would be ideal for such a situation is the basic Bash/Slash/Thurst (BST) system. For those who really have no idea:P

 

Bash - Top down attack (How the droid in naboo was cut in half)

Slash - Sideways attack (How the D.Maul got cut in half)

Thurst - Stabbing/Poking attack (How Quigon died)

 

Since all the above can be done in the movies, why not in the game?

 

In this BST system, we see three real variations of attack. One is a bashing type attack similiar to using a hammer. A slashing attack would be what we're mostly seeing in JKII, swinging the saber left to right. The thurst attack is non-existant as far as I can see except perhaps for the back attack move.

 

In JKII, the attack animations (esp when standing still) are very much random. This does not at all benefit the player as he does not know which 'attack animation' he is performing. I wish to stress alot on the first attack animation chosen as this is sufficient enough to determine a critical hit or miss for the player.

 

I base this highly on beat em ups like the Tekken series or Street Fighter or King Of Fighers etc etc. In such games, it not only becomes a battle of who knows the most moves. It's a battle of the mind. Which move to execute at the right time. Knowing exactly what type of attack you are about to unleash is vital because of the various aspects such as speed, distance are involved. A left handed punch is a left handed punch and a flaming uppercut is a flaming uppercut. You won't find any variations where you input the moves for a flaming uppercut and find your character doing something different.

 

I found the 'back attack' and the 'air attack' (jump in the air swing saber down scorpion style!) to be very impressive feats but impractical if you ask me. For one thing, the back attack works only IF a player is behind you, which is logical, but what if you wanted to step back and raise your saber, but instead performing the back attack move when you really want to attack the opponent in front? Wouldn't it have been more interesting if players could perform the 'back attack' (though no one is behind) and then spinning the mouse 180degrees so the saber would still hack at the opponent in front. A surprise attack?

 

At the same time, I feel combat would be alot more tactical and strategy based as players try to find weaknesses in one anothers attacks based on the opponent's attack. For example, an opponent recoiling from a slash might be thursted at, or one who lifts his saber to bash can be slashed at. This way, maybe we could see alot more sabers clashing into each other in multiplayer fights. ie. Parrying off a thurst with a slash, or when someone tries to bash, and you slash causing both sabers to lock. Skillwise, newbies can adapt pretty quickly, but still only the quickminded and devoted ones can master the system.

 

Handedness will play a big role in this system as it determines which direction a player slashes from, and how the saber swings in a combo. Maybe this might cause a big headache as the animation job to be done is doubled, but hey, there are more lefties out there than you think!

 

Spectator wise, I think the game already looks good when you watch two jedis fighting in a narrow platform. There's actually an immersive feel to it. However, it's still repetitive and after the first few times, watching a jedi fight will be as interesting as a half life scientist. Worse, how interesting does it get if both players swing their sabers doing all the swinging combos but neither actually close enough to hit each other yet? I've seen it in games, players begin doing combos before actually getting close enough for the combat.

 

Again, why is there the need to begin a combo before the match has started? I'd love to see a movie moment like Obi and Vader staring at each and then closing in before actually activating the sabers and locking them. But we can't do that in game. Why? Because we don't know where we'll actually attack from.

 

It's not to say I'm criticising the current saber system but it's really just 'more damage, lower speed/ medium damage, medium speed/ low damage, more speed' which IMHO doesn't seem to be much of an innovation in the saber duelling field. (Ok, I never played JK1 so flame me about it, everything I say is based on JKII from a padawan perspective. Padawan = noob)

 

I know it's just a game after all, and why do I have so much to say about it? Maybe I see the potential in it growing into something bigger someday. You'll probably ask me to make my own game since I've got so much to grumble about but that's not the point, I want this game to grow as much as any other fan out here. I'm not asking for anything, just stating my views and I hope someone shares the same with me.

[~(\/)iasma->]

I am not here to flame you. I respect your opinion of your current view of the saber system. I don't agree with it only because I have spent a lot of time working on my control and can kill people with intentional saber/body movements and not because of a fluke. I can control where that blade goes and stick it in you. FFA, at first, is crazy-wild but mashing the attack button and bouncing around all over the place only gets people so far(including the zelda slam ). Focus power. Don't attack willy nilly, pick a target and hunt them.

 

As far as learning control, you need to attack some walls man. Find a nice corner in some map. The duel_pit map is good. Go stand underneath one of the mid high platforms. Face the wall and then look straight up at the bottom of the platform. Choose any/all stance/s and hit fwd+attack and then move the mouse quickly so that you are now looking at the ground. Notice how you *cut* the wall. See the line that you drew.. learn the lines man, then learn how you can control where and how the lines are drawn. Then put an opponent into your drawing.

 

When you move your mouse fwd and back, your body bends at the waist and side to side spins you in place. Hmm so does that light saber. Stand still in that same spot and just push down the attack button and move your mouse around wildly looking up down side to side, throw in a crouch or two and *then* look at the lines you just drew. Then imagine that there was a person standing in front of you when you did that. wooooo, I know what your thinking now, "If I can somehow gain control of this in the game, I will be a force to be reckoned with. " Well when I did this, that is what I thought. You may think something different. Try this same excercise while running wildly in circles in the central pit, crouching looking around all over.. be out of control so that you can learn what to control.

 

<<<stupid key combos that ultimately lead to you spinning out of control in congested situations.>>>

 

Stop mashing the attack button and sidestepping. Try to pick and choose the moments to strike your opponent. FFA is tough because it is so frenetic and that chaos can swallow you in. Don't let it. If you can maintain a controlled prescence in the FFA chaos, you will do well. Of course if you can maintain a controlled state of wild chaos, you will be unbeatable.

 

<<<Surely they could have implemented a system whereby you could..hold a key and move the mouse "with control", of where you want to swing it. >>>

 

To make a forward attack (quick slash down/up right):

 

Step 1) hold down a key(s) - fwd (w) + atk (mouse1)

Step 2) move the mouse "with control" - quickly move mouse to the right and up

 

I don't see the problem here, this is what they have done.

 

 

These are *some* of the things that I have done that were invaluable to me for learning "control". There are others like just seeing what each button combination does in the 3 styles. Knowing that any time I am pushing any movement buttons and attack is going to make some attack happen. This can potentially look like random saber strokes. Learn which strokes go up and down, and then accentuate that up/down saber motion by throwing in the up/down body movememt. Do the same with your side to side attacks in conjunction with side to side body movement. You can get some crazy fast slices and slashes going on that kill people before you both have realized it.

 

I'll see you in the game, look for me,

Misama is my name.

^^^^^^ not a typo

[MrCrusher]

There is a duel.cfg floating around the editing or Mod forums that allows you to push one key for a specific attack rather than several. It works farely well but you can't be moving or it will interfere with the script.

 

The problem with a keyboard mouse setup is that you need to be moving with one hand on directional keys, freelooking/attacking with the other hand on the mouse. You would need a third hand to press the eight different attacks available (in each stance) while moving. The setup Raven created is specifically for the Keyboard/mouse. It is the best way to do it in my opinion.

 

I use a mouse/stick combo that has an excellent button programing app. The Saitek SGE allows me to execute any attack moving in any direction, even crouched. This setup seems to execute attacks a bit faster than the Duel.cfg. My forward/back and strafe are controlled by the stick axis so I don't need that third hand. All eight attacks are controlled by thumb buttons and hat switch. This way I can move in any direction while attacking with any attack with the mouse in freelook. So far I have found little advantage in this greater freedom for attacks. Why is that you might ask? Well, it appears that the default attack that you execute when moving a specific way IS the best attack for that situation. The game and sabre system was specifically designed that way.

 

If, for some reason the combat was slower due to decrease in game speed or a more intense defensive style or stance were available, then more strategic attack sequences using specific attacks, blocks and parries might be viable.

 

Also, remember that the learning curve for this type of melee game could take some time. I tend to make lots of suggestions before I've mastered the game; that makes for lousy suggestions.

[NewBJedi]

Use your mouse more than the keys.

 

That's the problem.

 

The keys are great for sudden movememts, but very slight use of the mouse gets you exacting control.

 

I pretty much have about 90% control over where my saber goes.

 

The reason being that I take it slow, careful, and barely twitch the mouse.

 

The manual tells you how to do extreme moves, not the precision ones.

 

The person who mentioned wall practice is right on.

 

Very good post, I'll share that with friends.

[Darth Phodis]

Firstly, thank you all for your responses...this is the first time I've posted, and its good to know some ppl read/reply and offer ideas to help others improve.

I like the wall idea, and will give it some practise...

I was thinking on how to improve attacks and came up with an idea. This will probably sound foolish but can anyone tell me the command to bind (if its possible) three commands to the mouse.

 

1) left mouse to slash left

2) middle mouse to slash top down foward

3) Right mouse to slash right

 

Hmm, I know it will limit my saber controls but... for me it would be quick and easy...remembering there are three stances, I would guess that the attacks on the coresponding mouse buttons would chane the attacks most times they are used.

 

Hmmm, until then I think I might do some private wall training, and try and get some control, I hate coming last on multiplay....although I am slowly crawling my way up to half way (sometimes) on the scores at the end of the match

 

Thanx guys...until next time

MAY THE PATCH BE WITH YOU....

[*T¥RANITH*]

I agree with (\/)iasma on most of this, when I first started playing I thought the system pretty crap, whereas u could not know where ur saber was going...

Now I have played the game for about 5 days solid and have honed my skills quite well, imo.

I find I can control my saber pretty well so that it goes where I want it to go. The best thing about JKII imo is that the saber does damage if it hits you, no matter what swing u are doing. The ONE thing I do not agree with is that depending on the swing you are making, ur saber does differing amounts of damage to the enemy. This should not be the case, the saber should do damage according to where and how much of the body it connects with. (ie instant death should occur if the saber is brought entirely accross and fully through the neck) no matter which stance u are in, or what swing you are using. Imo there should be a patch which incorporates this, so that the only difference in the strength aspect (red-strong, yellow-medium, blue-weak) of the styles should be the amount of knockback from the power of the saber (in that it knocks their saber away for u to make a second attack and also more difficult for them to counterattack). This should also remove the 'whorage' and annoyance with red stance+DFA (the unblockabe instadeath move which everyone is complaining about) since the problem with this move is that as soon as u activate it ur saber instantly becomes unblockable and instantly lethal, even though u can move the saber up AFTER u have executed the move and poke them in the foot and kill them.

Good dueling everyone

 

Well, that is my opinion don't go flaming me just cos u don't agree with it.

*T¥RANITH*

 

p.s. Darth Phodis: I script mostly for half-life/CS, and not Quake3, but seeing as they seem quite similar I will give it a go...

I *believe* the script would look something like this:

alias rightslash "+left; +attack; -left; -attack"

alias leftslash "+right; +attack; ; -right; -attack"

alias downslash "+forward; +attack; ; -forward; -attack"

bind mouse1 leftslash

bind mouse2 rightslash

bind mouse3 downslash

Like I said i'm not a Quake3 scripter so there may be some discrepancies in

1)the time of the attacks, u may have to include some ;wait; s inside the script, especially between the +attack and the -<movement>

2)The name of the movements, they might be called something like +strafeleft or something, I would check the cfg...

3)u may not have to place the -attack or -<movement> in at all. Half life (and Quake3 it seems) automatically adjusts a script which has the command +attack first and foremost to secretly put -attack at the moment the bound button is released. Since i have +attack as the second action of the script, it may (well, probably) be necessary to include a -attack, as if there was none, you would keep swinging like a maniac

4)the alias command. If it does not work try replacing the alias <attackname> with the bind <mousebutton>

Hope this helps some....

[cistern]

heh! your right miasma, i totally agree with the 'wall sabering' practice. Does allow for some control of the saber but i was mainly criticizing the while standing still attack anims. They're all random to begin with, and I don't mind random, but the 3 (I think there are 3) strokes are completely different from each other... besides, I think there aren't enough saber locks & saber blocks happening in MP. My suggestion was that the blocking/parrying durin saber fights were to be completely manual as opposed to the currect saber defend. Anyway, before I sound anymore padawanish...

 

does anyone know the exact url for the duel.cfg thread or something because search has been disabled and I can't seem to find the right thread. please?

 

ps. thursting would have been simply cool if you could just pull it on the spot cos I know the attacks+forwards+crouch move but that takes 0.someting something seconds too long. Would be alot quicker imho if a press of the mouse button would be enough to stick my saber up the other guys ass where the force dont shine.

 

also, i find it irritating that while it's suppose to detect your saber hits pixel by pixel and stuff... there are times when it actually doesn't and you see the saber swish through the player like thin air... force illusion? Usually happens when you and the other player are in hugging distance...

[*T¥RANITH*]

Originally posted by cistern

also, i find it irritating that while it's suppose to detect your saber hits pixel by pixel and stuff... there are times when it actually doesn't and you see the saber swish through the player like thin air... force illusion? Usually happens when you and the other player are in hugging distance...

 

I've found this too, but I THINK that this is due to the other person blocking, don't quote me on this, but I think it is because of this. (Lag could also play a small part in this)