The Jedi of the Old Republic MOD (poll)

[Rajess MoDuron]

If not taken out, weakened severely, both with how far it kicks and how much it does.

 

It takes 12 life now. no way a kick takes 12 when a lightsaber takes 20-99. No way.

[The Truthful Liar]

I think that kick should hold as a seperate key or function. Also by creating a new kick animation instead of having to jump. I'd say 2 types of jump, one flip kick and another straight out kick.

 

Bleh I'm tired, will fill in more.

 

Cheers

[Ko'or Oragahn]

By the way, I think kick should be removed in its current form. The only time we see a Jedi kicking is when Maul hits Obi Wan. And he just does a swift thrust-kick, if I recall correctly. Never leaves the ground.

 

Well, I remember the aerial two-feeted tackle that Obi-Wan executed against Jango Fett.

[Rajess MoDuron]

You would be correct, but the question here is "would he have attempted as risky a move against a fellow jedi?".

 

And Luke kicks Vader too, a sidekick to knock him down stairs. It will be included, the only question is in what way.

[The Truthful Liar]

Yes I agree it will be a very tricky manuever to use... must have presise timing and good aim to use.. maybe just auto-aim the kick instead. And what to speak about getting it to work in-game, bleh the animations would be risky to work on since... well the model requires to "bend" in a slightly abnormal way to perform the move, mmm... I see many bugs ahead

[Rajess MoDuron]

Bugs=FUN!!

 

:-D

[Ko'or Oragahn]

Rajess, does the NRG team has a site ?

[Rajess MoDuron]

Yes it does, but it's a WIP. I'll leave whether to post it or not up to Legion.

[Darth Darth]

I think that tackle would be suicide even against a non-jedi who had a lightsaber. Get his legs sliced off, or the target could just hold the saber out and let Obi-Wan impale himself on it. Now, having limbs chopped off in battle seems unfeasible. That would mean that you would have to make several damaged player models for every basic player model, with people changing models in mid-game when it happens. I know you can chop limbs off in single player, but I think you would need an entirely different model to chop a limb off without dying. Also, you would have to make new stances and attacks for one-handed players. Plus, in Rajess's system, no one gets wounded, either a hit takes away only stamina, or you get killed.

 

Now, I think a stunt button would be neat. You hit the button in combination with jump, duck, or directional buttons to do one of several new kicks, flips, dives, etc. There is simply a limit to how many different combinations of button presses you can have; if you want to add much more stuff, you need another button.

 

Now, Rajess, I was wondering: How many people besides yourself do you have on this project? Do you have anyone yet? And are you actually working on the project yet, or waiting for the SDK?

[Rajess MoDuron]

Right now we have no programmers or scripters other than myself, unfortunately. We have been scouring the Quakeworld forums for possible talent, but as this is not for an ID game, we cannot post there.

 

My talents are not enough to do this by myself, I'm an idea guy with mild implementation skills.

 

We are waiting for the SDK (full) to come out before we do any real editing. I've mostly been seeing what other people have done with animation mods and such, and seeing how they did it and what they changed, looking for THE KEY.

 

We have all of the personell necessary to do a model pack and level pack for the mod, but again, only myself on programming as far as I know.

 

Anyone who wants to help and can submit an example of their work, contact me and I will contact Legion, unless he wants to put his email here too (hint hint).

 

chexmaniac@hotmail.com

 

Now, a stunt button would be an excellent idea Darth. I really cannot stress enough how much I like your input.

 

Thank you again.

[RichDiesal]

I would hafta say that any sort of kick, flying leap, tackle or otherwise was never meant to cause hurt/damage in any of the films but instead to throw their opponent off-guard...

 

I mean really, when you're sword fighting, who the hell EXPECTS to get a swift kick straight to their midsection? If timed REALLY well it could be used to gain an advantage...

 

My suggestion would be to allow kicking/stunts to knock the other player down but only to give an EXTREMELY narrow window of opportunity in a very specific circumstance (i.e. only for a quarter-second window when your opponent is doing a particularly stong attack).

 

Thus, most of the time it would be a suicide move, but if you just so happened to pull it off at the last second when you were about to die and then sliced your opponent open while he was on the ground, that would make for incredible fights.

 

Remember, saber battles are not all about wagering saber tactics, they are also simple battles of intelligence on a rudimentary level. I can see a battle where one player totally dominates the other but because of his arrogance in using totally open attacks, he leaves himself wide open to a swift kick to the stomach and gets himself sliced open.

[Rajess MoDuron]

Which is why I am tossing around the idea of another statistic.

 

BALANCE.

 

If you guys like that idea I will tell you how it would be implemented.

 

Basically, don't over-extend yourself, or you will die.

[kenad]

How about kicking as a riposte? It could be like force pushing someone from a lock.... are locks still in this mod?

It took me ages to read everything, so i have forgotten a few ideas. DAMN!

Oh, yeah, how about, instead of throwing (which is really rare), the alternate 'attack' be a block, and if you time it just right you riposte. It could be much more tactical if you have to use the block yourself then launch with massif combos of attack.

 

[Dentalplan]

As regards the RPG elements, I have a suggestion. Would it be possible to implement some sort of padawan/apprentice system. A sufficiently powerful jedi could take a new weak jedi under their wing, and would share kill points until the apprentice reaches a more powerful level. The two would act as a team, with the point sharing only applying if they are sufficiently close to each other (perhaps duel range).

 

Even better, make taking an apprentice/padawan compulsory for achieving a certain level in the force. I have heard (not sure if this is true) that for one to become a Jedi Master one must take on and train a padawan. This would mean good players would have to help weaker ones. It might also bring some civility to proceedings (who wants to train/ be trained by an obnoxious a-hole).

 

Obviously there might be a problem if you had to have the same Padawan each time. It could be that who have a padawan for a game. Alternatively you could say to hell with it, and make a long term padawan a proper requirement. It would create an interesting social dynamic within the community, that is for sure.

[Epimetheus]

How about if you're using a male model and you get kicked in the groin, you get stunned and keel over?

[Dentalplan]

Oh, and in terms of the RPG thing, what will the effects of dying be? Will it not matter, or will their be penalties? Would you go so far as to say that they have to start from scratch? Or perhaps dying will give minus one point.... but this would have problems (unless killing someone gave more than one point.)

[Rajess MoDuron]

I love the padawan master idea, it was one I had thought about, but didn't really know how to realistically implement it. That is a great idea.

 

And I think maybe a point deduction of some sort, or a minor permanent reduction of Max stamina could work for deaths, or whatever.

[Epimetheus]

Scripting tools are out now... Yay.

[The Truthful Liar]

Yesssss.... awsome, I have absolutely no idea what or how to use them... but still... cooooooooool

 

I like that RPG idea to an extent btw

 

OOh got another idea spurt, I'll write it down later

 

Cheers

[Darth Darth]

Well, lets not take the RPG thing too far. Keep in mind this is not an MMORPG, it is a FPS, with games only lasting an hour or less. Doing all that stuff in one game would be too much of a hassle. Having it carry over from game to game would require a permanent stats server, a huge amount of stat coding; more resources than an independent modder has. I think it would just be overly complicated.

 

I totally agree with you on the kicks Diesal, they should never be fatal. Just throw people off balance, and take away some force stamina, since they would knock the wind out of someone, make them dizzy, or otherwise just ruin their concentration. But we dont want them to be a substitute for saber swinging. I have seen people win fights by just kicking an oponent several times, and that is just lame.

 

Thanks for the consideration Raj, I am trying to get input on my ideas because I want to be a game developer someday. Unfortunatly, I am just finishing my last year of high school, and can't program or anything. Soon as I take some college classes on that I wanna work on a mod, maybe in 2 or 3 years.

 

Anyway, how would you handle damage from weapons other than the lightsaber using the stamina system? Perhaps you are thinking of making this mod for saber only games, but I would prefer that you not. Sabers only is only fun in duel and deathmatch games, CTF and other gametypes lose their depth when you take out the guns. Anyway, I was thinking that the energy cost of force push and pull should change a bit based on what you are pushing or pulling, so it costs less to push a rocket or pair of flak grenades, then to push a person. This way, some lammae couldnt just overwhelm you with a load of grenades until you cant push anymore, and you die.

 

 

As far as the team goes, dont sweat it. I doubt you will get any coders before the SDK comes out. I know if I were one, I would want to see how good it is before I commit to a mod.

[RichDiesal]

SDK is out now, isn't it? I thought they just released it... or is that something else?

[Dentalplan]

Darth Darth, if guns are to be included there needs to be substanial modification. I don't see how the rocket launcher or the repeaters primary and secondary fire are viable. Anything that is impossible to block cannot be implemented (unless you give people auto-push?) Sabering has changed so much there has to be a balance. No force use when holding a gun?

 

Anyway, I think what is being sought after is a realistic simulation of what a jedi and sith are about. Letting Jedi or Sith carry guns will destroy this.

 

As for the RPG system, this does all seem very ambitious. I would suggest that it be a long term goal, and even when it is released it should be an optional game mode.

 

For the normal game, might I suggest a counter-strike style system, where people earn points through kills in the game fairly rapidly, but lose them if killed. The more powerful the opponent you defeat, the more points you get (may I suggest a fraction of their force points.) The padawaning system could perhaps be implemented using some of the mechanics for Duel (you press a button to offer padawanship ( ) and they press a button to accept), with both sides having to maintain certain distance or this is lost. Anyone below , let says, Knight level (whatever that is deciding to be) can be padawaned, but this ceases once they reach knight level, from which point they can take a padawan.

 

Points deployed into force powers and saber skill should be irretractable (bar death) but should instantly take effect (obviously respawning is not an option).

 

What else... powers should be available to all at first, until knight level perhaps. Could a light/dark meter be implemented? Perhaps light powers are augmented by a strong light leaning and vica versa with dark side powers?

 

What makes you light/dark side? This is looking complicated. Basing it on who you kill (go dark for killing jedi for example) is impracticle because you might kill them by accident, or they may have attacked you first. Use of powers perhaps?

 

This is all very complicated in itself. What I would recommend you do is ignore all the above for now, and work of getting the basic system (with predefined sets of force points ala normal JK2) up and running. Perfect that, release it. Then start work on the more complex systems you are planning to implement, and release them in further modifications/updates. I still want to be around when this sees the light of day!

[The Truthful Liar]

I couldn't be bothered to read that all sorry --^

 

I'm speaking for Seth here. There will be other weapons than the Saber. Guns (not the only weapon including saber though ) would be found in the Star Wars Universe ONLY.

 

Seth can improve on what I've just said, as I remember there was a "Star Wars ONLY guns/weapons" TC for the original Jk1, I'll see if I can get in touch with those guys again.

 

Cheers

[Ko'or Oragahn]

Damn, I think I should post now what I wrote on a piece of paper, otherwise I'll have to catch up too much things.

 

Beware, it is a bit a mess !

 

Here's my input.

 

Big list it is.

 

1. 
    
   
2. The Force is a constant. It's only the user who gains or losses control of it. Even calling it Force Control would be better.
    
   My point of view is that it's more a matter of concentration and control than anything else. For example, think of the way the powers are used in Shadowrunner.
    
   And well, isn't that what Yoda says to Luke ? "Concentrate ! Concentrate !"...
    
   Lack of concentration results in a lack of control.
    
   You probably noticed Qui-Gon Jinn meditating in front of Maul after being separated by the energy walls in the Naboo reactor. He was calming down, concentrating, getting closer the Force and increasing his contact with it.
    
   I think a player should have a Force Control bar or pool that would be used both for Force AND lightsabre fighting (and or even for using a gun), mostly meaning that, except for the Masters, the average guy will rarely use most of their powers at their full extent at the same time.
    
   There will be a choice. Tactics, yes, tactis.
    
   Look, it's only when Obi-Wan and Maul get a "pause" with their blades blocked that the Sith managed to send the Jedi back by using some sort of Force Explosion or something that produced a dilation noise (without saying that Obi-Wan easied up Maul's task by dwelving into the dark side - which is a parameter I think must be taken in count - Jedi don't like darkness and Sith don't like light).
    
   I think a Force Control in-game-active attribute is a must.
   It's not only a matter of name. It is important and the first step to get a mod more tuned with the reality of the SW universe.
   The higher your Force Control, the better you'll fight with your weapon, the better you'll dodge/parry/riposte, the more you'll avoid injuries and lessen the importance of your wounds, and finally, the stronger and more efficient will be your powers.
    
   It is closely related with Stamina.
    
   For example, a tired player won't have the same ease to concentrate, move, fight and more than an oponent who's pretty sharp and strong.
    
   The higher the rank of your character, the higher his Force Control Maximum (FCM) will be. If the game is meant to be more RPG than what I thought, it could be your level of FCM which could determine your rank. Seems logic in fact... yep.
    
   So a Padawan will have near as no match against a Master, except if this Master makes several mistakes and/or get to cocky.
    
   Despite its name, Force Control won't be a Power but an ATTRIBUTE.
    
   Another point, and certainly one of the most important ones :
    
   Force Control wil be used for both Force Powers and LSD (ok ! ok ! easy guys... it's just LightSabre Dueling). Thus meaning that most of the times, you'll have to make a choice between fighting and using Force Powers.
    
   Say goodbye to Force spam and these endless mix of lightsabre attacks always followed by deadly lightnings. The goal is to stick to the movies (which showed by btw that the Jedi are far more reluctant to use the Force directly on their oponent than the Sith).
    
   To recover your Force Control, you'll just have to act the same way as you would had to to recover your Stamina.
    
   Jedi and Sith are always linked to the Force. So the true point is HOW they are linked to it.
    
   What makes a Force user better than he other one is how he is tuned to the Force, so in fact the fights should mostly be an illustration of the inner mental struggle occuring at the time. This is btw really close to what happens in martial arts, where mind is even more important than brutal strenght.
    
   Mind -> Knowledge and Concentration.
    
   So as I said, Force Control would be used for both LSD (LightSabre Dueling) and Force powers.
    
   
3. The way to determine if you're succesfull or not in casting any Force power/attacking/blocking and other stuff depending on your Force Control would be quite similar to the way some light RPG systems work, but far less complex.
   In fact, it will only be a matter of real short calculations made by the server (or even the clients in order to reduce the lag).
    
   Here's how it would work :
    
   To determine if your power is succesful or not, there will be a comparison runned between some of the attributes of the two players, the attacker and the attacked(s). Btw this sytem could probably be also used for the LSD, plus minor other vars adding spice to the affair.
    
   Anyway, here's how it could work.
    
   First, let's say that there are 5 levels per power or a LSD aptitude (attack, block, riposte, etc.).
    
   You'll be given a certain amount of points obtained by the level number of the aptitude you're using, multiplied by ten.
    
   No Lvel : 0
   Level 1 : 10
   Level 2 : 20
   Level 3 : 30
   Level 4 : 40
   Level 5 : 50
    
   Ok. This was the first step.
    
   Then you have the different rates for the Force Control aptitude :
    
   Let's say that for a Jedi Padawan named Garik, his FCM will be fixed at 60, and for an Ubber Jedi Master like Yoda, it will be more like 100. This si to simplify.
    
   Note : At the moment, I don't know if the Force Control Maximum should be fixed by looking at the rank of a person, or if the rank of a person should be given in regards of his FCM, this last option meaning that there would be something like a possibility to gain experience, and once you reach a certain amount of FCM points, you'd go up in the hierarchy.
    
   This is just an example after all. A lot of things need to be fixed.
    
   So here we go :
    
   Garik tries a Force Push on Yoda.
    
   Garik had a level 2 in Force Push, which gives him +20 points. Garik's rate of Force Control was 20/60 WHEN HE USED HIS POWER.
    
   Yoda has a level 5 in Force Push, which corresponds to +100 points (the maximum available), and had a Force Control of 90/100 when Garik used his Force Push.
    
   The calculation will be the following one :
    
   Garik's level in Force Push x 10 + his FC points Vs. Yoda's level in Force Push x 10 + his FC points
    
   So here we go :
    
   Garik : 10 + 20 = 30
   Yoda : 50 + 90 = 140
    
   Garik's attempts fails.
    
   But both Garik and Yoda taped into their FC.
    
   Note that to counter a Force Push, the defender will no longer need to move his hand.
    
   If a player has no points in a power needed to counter another power, then he will only rely on his concentration.
    
   Every Force power will have an assigned default counter power, usually the same one, but not always. But this function could be disabled as well if you'd like to.
    
   For each power, you'll have a menu in which you'll have to choose which power will be used as the default counter power.
    
   Just imagine that you're ajusting your power levels in the menu.
   You will have a submenu called "Your Powers", and another menu called "Counter Powers". Click "Counter Powers" menu.
    
   Then appears the list of ALL the powers.
    
   Click on a Force Power and a small window will popup, in which you'll see a list of all the powers that can be automatically used to counter from the ones YOU can use. You can choose only one.
    
   We may need to have a function to enable/disable the auto-counter power function in game.
    
   All these counter powers will be used automatically, without being activated. They won't cost any Force Control unless used to counter another Power. Only then they will tap into the FC pool.
    
   Ok, this means that some powers are only reactive and other that can be activated in game.
    
   Basically, to be able to counter a power, will you must NOT be attacking at the same time. In fact, the more defensive you are, the more chances you'll have to counter a power.
    
   Some of the powers used to counter could be used to strike back at your oponent.
    
   The best example I can think of is Yoda absorbing Dooku's Sith lightnings. Then Yoda decides to send one of the lightning bolt back to Dooku, who dodged it, but he also could have took it right in his face if he hadn't been concentrated enough. Well, obviously, Dooku was powerful. Not all powerful, but enough to resist before escaping and avoiding being hit by his own back flash.
    
   
4. You'll need to be at least at 50% of your FCM to cast a Force Power. Well, there may be something like that, and probably along the factor which determines how strong/efficient is your power in regards to your actual FC rate. I don't know... ideas...
    
   
5. When killed, players should release ALL the weapons they carried.
    
   
6. I think there should five states of alignment in regards to the Force (refers to pre-ANH Jedi Order, because we know that things changed after that) :
    
   Jedi
   Jedi who generally follow the strict dogma of the Cosmic Force .
    
   Jedi Maverick
   A different philosophy, more connected with instinct. They follow concepts such as the Living Force.
    
   Grey Jedi
   Jedi who try to get reach perfect balance between the two sides of the Force.
    
   Fallen Jedi
   Can be a Sith but will never be as dark as a pure Sith. There's still somewhere a place for light in them, but clearly droawn into an abyssal void of darkness. A class which includes Dark Jedi (for eg. Yun from Jedi Knight).
    
   Sith
   Pure Sith teached in the Sith arts from the beginning. Well of course, this is also a cathegory which could include the darkest Dark Jedi known in the universe such as Jerec, Desann, Boc, Maw, Sariss, Gorc, Pic and High Inquisitor Treymane.
    
   Somehow, in regards of your status, some powers from one side or the other may be more expensive.
    
   For example; a Grey Jedi will have to spend less points to get new levels in a particular light side power than a Sith.
    
   Pure Jedi or pure Sith won't have access to the powers of the oposite sides until their status changes, but they will be the only ones to be able to reach the higher levels of their respective Force side.
    
   A Grey Jedi will only have access the third level of light or dark side powers.
    
   A Maverick Jedi will only have access to the fourth level of light side powers and will only be able to get to the first level of dark side powers. Btw, for a Maverick Jedi, dark side powers will cost much more than if he was a Grey Jedi or a Dark Jedi.
    
   
7. I'm thinking of a method to have the powers no more classified by dark, neutral or light rank. Well, they will still be good or bad powers, but each of them will have a light or dark factor.
    
   For example, think of Sith Lightnings. This is the one of ultimate dark side powers.
    
   So it will be affected by a factor of 5 dark stars.
    
   A Force power would only have stars from a side or another, never from both.
    
   So the more dark stars a power will have, the more expensive it will be for a player attuned to the light side.
    
   Btw, the more dark stars a power will have, the fewer levels a Jedi will have access to.
    
   If we use the same example as above, it will mean that a Jedi has access to none of the levels of Force Lightning, the same as a Sith has no access to Force Absorb.
    
   But there are powers that are less dark or light which are more accessible.
    
   Another example, only a Maverick Jedi would have access to the only first level of Force Lightning.
    
   To sum up, the more darker a power will be, the less affordable it will be for a Jedi.
    
   Jedi don't have acess to absolute dark as Sith don't have access to absolute light.
    
   Oh well, I'm bit tired, I hope you see the point here.
    
   
8. As it worked in JK, I think the falling scream shouldn't ONLY depend of an entity but ALSO on how high you're falling from, unless you're slowing your fall.
    
   
9. The "getting up" animation shouldn't stop a player from falling when executed.
    
   
10. Remove the useless respawn when a player has felt into the void.
     
    
11. Let the music play in loop instead of restarting it when a duel is finished (when fraglimit is put at 1).
     
    
12. Remove the dismembered members' bumping.
     
    
13. When a corpse is sliced in two or the haed cut off, remove any animation from the dead player.
     
    
14. Add the slowmotion function for duel.
     
    
15. I agree with Rajess' pov about the Force powers, except that I don't like to see them be nerfed. In fact, they need to be better leveled and even some of them made even more powerfull to fit with the canon material (for eg, Sidious lightings were able to kick Luke on the ground and they were so painfull that a Jedi as Luke was paralized by his sufferings (this happens in SP - a thing we never see in MP, as the padawans aren't really bothered by the masters' powers, which seems odd).
     
    
16. I think you should call Maul's saber a lightstaff. Everyone will understand what you mean.
    It has two blades, which make it look like a staff, so... lightstaff.
    Note that Maul's lightstaff has a special ignition sound, slightly different from the other usual lightsabre.
     
    
17. Yep Maul is a bad ass, but he comes fom Iridonia. It's your avatar character, Eeth Koth, who comes from Nar Shaddaa.
     
    
18. The less moves you do in battle will provide you more succesfull hits and parries. If you keep running and jumping all the way, your Stamina and Force Control will decrease quickier than if you were walking and fighting.
    This is a way to get guys fight instead of one trying to hide and the other one running behind him.
     
    The Force feeds the knights. And in fact, it's the one who has the most Stamina and almost who is the most concentrated who will usually win, except surprise attacks, luck and other things like that.
     
    Timing and intelligence will also play big parts in the duels. I completely agree with what said Richdiesal about the kicks and punches. They shouldn't kill.
     
    
19. The Force powers will be reajusted, and most of them increased by the releveling process.
     
    

20. C. Full Time RPG Environment. HUGE maps of ENTIRE cities. Teamwork, Padawan/Master system. Etc. Fun stuff, all of it.
    

     
    I don't think that should be a priority. If the Padawa/Paster system sounds interesting and could be done without major problem, it won't be the case of the rest.
    The focuse should be orientated on the gameplay aspect before anything else. I agree with the system of ladders and stats stored into servers. Would be great. But now having huges cities and things like, I'd better wait for Galaxies if you don't mind.
    The mod will borrow from RPG systems, but shouldn't be totally converted into a RPG game.
     
    
21. If there's some sort of progress and experience included with the ladder system, I think we could consider the possibility of drifting towards a side or the other.
     
    Like if you started as a young Dark Jedi but used a lot of light powers as long as the dark ones, you would become a grey Jedi, and even maybe a Maverick Jedi if you completely avoid using the dark side powers.
     
    
22. I agree that there must be a Stamina and a Stamina Maximum. A player would recover his Stamina by calming down, not moving and staying quiet, the same way he would do to recover his FC. To sum up, having a break.
     
    A bad injury would lower your SM. SM couldn't be recovered without the use of the exclusive to the Light Side Force Heal (quick) or with Force Meditation (slow but accesible to both light and dak siders).
     
    The only ways to get to a null Stamina are the followings ones :
     
    - Wounding by weapon (LS generally).
    - Wounding by Force Power.
    - Wounding by fall.
     
    There will be three major levels of Stamina.
    The lower one will be death, the one just above will be a state of temporary unconsciousness, and the next one will be the upper part of the Stamina pool.
     
    Btw, your total of Stamina points should determine how fast you move, get up, fight, concentrate (Force Control) and recover your Stamina points.
     
    Which means for example that if a violent hit lower your Stamina to near as unconsciousness state, you will take more time to get back into battle thatn if you were only lightly punched out.
     
    Oh well, this is a heavy problem to solve.
     
    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Plus there a BIG BIG input abour Force powers that I'll post, but I need to enhance it in order to have it readable.

[Epimetheus]

I personally think if there are any weapons whatsoever, many people (including myself) won't even touch it. Besides, when was the last time you saw a Jedi use anything but a lightsaber? (Luke in ANH doesn't count, as he was just a wenie that happened to have a lightsaber)