Lord Katarn (jumping on the Dark Kyle bandwagon :P)

[Infinity Blade]

Ahh.. So he can steal the content of the face though?

 

So if someone was doing a portrait of the Mona Lisa with their own style and background, apparently it's alright to rip out the face and paint in the rest?

 

And as far as how original this skin is, it's not done from scratch. If I had to bet on it, here's the textures I would say are reused:

 

1. The arms have a much similar texture to kyles and could easily be mistaken as the texture itself, just painted over and recolored.

 

2. The neck collar itself seems like a blow up of his shirt/arm texture, recolored.

 

3. The center piece across his abdomen looks like, guess what, kyle's shirt/arm texture! Blown up, again.

 

4. The face is reused, and even if it is "kyle's face", he could at least make it look like the fmv character at the end of JK, like he suggested, instead of ripping off Raven's work.

 

 

NOW, I don't CARE if he did that or not. It looks like it was done well in my opinion. On another note, I don't like this skin. It's well done, and the texture work is quite competent, yet I don't like the finished look. That's my opinion, and Jepman should feel no insult to this, as it's merely my opinion and have even said it IS Good work.

 

However, I've seen skins that look better to me yet have reused textures. I don't know about you, but if I make a skin that needs plain black pants and raven supplies that with the game, I don't think I am to be frowned upon for saving myself time, energy, instead of creating something that won't look that fricking different as is!!!

 

That, and some of us don't have that great of tools. I probably could've bought Photoshop, but then I couldn't have afforded JK2. I should think some would factor that into making skins as well. Also, it's not just a simple recolor sometimes. It's also a redo of contrast, alignment, alteration of small details, alteration of large details, and changing or adding highlights. I didn't know all that could be done by just altering saturation, as you suggest.

 

And tell me, have you ever created a skin? Anything original at all? I haven't seen anything from you, but if I did I would still be objective and give you my honest opinion, even if you are a detestable person.

 

Perhap you should try to flaunt what meager and hidden kindness you have instead of sharing your ridicule for those you feel negatively about.

[Wes Janson SMR]

Originally posted by infinity_blade

That, and some of us don't have that great of tools. I probably could've bought Photoshop, but then I couldn't have afforded JK2. I should think some would factor that into making skins as well. Also, it's not just a simple recolor sometimes. It's also a redo of contrast, alignment, alteration of small details, alteration of large details, and changing or adding highlights. I didn't know all that could be done by just altering saturation, as you suggest.

 

Amen, bruddah.

[zeek2304]

Can we make his boobs bigger?

[FuShanks]

Originally posted by infinity_blade

And tell me, have you ever created a skin? Anything original at all? I haven't seen anything from you, but if I did I would still be objective and give you my honest opinion, even if you are a detestable person.

 

Hah ha ha haaaah...

 

You don't know me, sport. If you think I'm a detestable person because I'm trying to defend artistic integrity, then I hardly think that makes me the close minded one.

 

My skins aren't ready to be released. I don't have a lot of free time for them, but what time I do spend creating them I tend to favor spending, well... creating something. Recolors do not qualify. Rest assured when I finish the skins (five - they're a set), I'll let you know.

 

Incidentally, if I was so creatively drained that I decieded to make a Dark Kyle I'd be tempted to clone stamp/desaturate/recolor the existing skin. So I can undersand the urge. Yeah, I'd have to keep the face. That's a necessity as Kyle Katarn does not exist. I can't exactly look for a source pic of Mr. Katarn and then create my own skin from that. The character is Kyle Katarn, if I pasted someone else's face on the skin it would cease to be Kyle Katarn.

 

Which is why I wouldn't do a Dark Kyle in the first place.

 

If I'm going to spend time working on something that I'm giving away for free to complete and utter strangers, most of whom I detest as a matter of principle (you all know the worst part of multiplayer games are the other players), I want it to be something I did. I want it to be something I have complete artistic control over. If I want to put it in my portfolio, I want to be able to do so without having to recreate parts of the skin that I stole from JK2. If I want to convert it to a model for a different game (like Q3A), I want to be able to do so without reworking parts I lifted. If my name's attatched to it, I want it to be mine. Plain and simple.

 

Hey, maybe Raven doesn't have a problem with it. I know at the least it's to be expected. That doesn't mean I don't have a problem with it. Nor does it mean I'm "detestable" for having such an opinion. I'm willing to co-exist with people doing recolors. You're the ones making personal attacks and claiming that I'm ruining the community with my point of view. Who's the close-minded one, again?

 

Aside from all that, my emphasis is modeling (which is why the current SDK is a bit of a disappointment). Samples for various SW stuff can be found here, here, here, and here. I've been working with 3ds max for four years, Photoshop for six, and Illustrator for three. So yeah, I take a little offense to the suggestion I've never created anything original. I guess I touched a nerve or something, but do you think you could keep the insults to a minimum? That'd be super, chief.

[Wes Janson SMR]

I'm glad you can co-exist with people who "reuse" textures and recolor. Yeesh. What are we? Mutants? '-)

 

But seriously, what I've learnt so far in college is this: to be efficient, you must use all the resources available to you. That's the way you get what you need (and want), while saving time, yet achieving the quality you desire.

 

Not all of us are hashing out skins with the idea of it being in a personal portfolio. But if that's what modivates you to bring out quality skins, I'm all for ya'.

 

But I'll say this. If it'll be less work to simply recolor an existing skin, and do a little cut & paste to achieve what I want, I'll do it. Why would I spend ten times the work trying to do something I know I don't have the skills to do?

 

The Merc Skinset that Blade and I put out is essentially a recolored Jan, and a cut-and-paste recolored (and slightly altered) Kyle. And we make no effort to hide the simple facts. And you know what? The public couldn't have cared less. I've got nothing but good feeback from it - and that's because we used the available resources to achieve the effect we desired: cooler-looking heros in black. Though recoloring was a whole lot trickier that I'd thought. I did my best to bring out the details against a dark motif. And getting battered Jan to look roughed up, but not overly violated was a challenge. But I think both Blade and I did a good job. And I'm proud to have worked with him on this little project.

 

In the end, though, all skinners what the same thing: to put out something good that people will actually want to download. Both worlds of skinning, as it were, pretty much do that. Whether it be reused textures, or something completely hand-drawn, as long as we, the artists are satisfied with it; and as long as the crowd ticks up our download counters.

 

And, might I say, I am thouroughly impressed with a lot of the "original" skins being released. Just for the hell of it, I threw Ab's Vithral skin into SP to replace Desann, and I haven't change hiim since. Good job with Vithral, dude. Really nice work.

 

But from all my babbling, I'm still sure that not all of us are gonna see eye-to-eye on this. And that's what makes these forums work. The only real thing that I have a problem with is that sometimes people turn their noses up from skins because of the fact that some textures were reused and recolored. Look at the finished product as a whole, and the effect that the artist tried to achieve. Pointing at individual sections and calling the thing unoriginal is really not all that constructive.

 

Daz it for now.

 

Oh yeah.. And why should his boobs be bigger, zeek? '-)

[Infinity Blade]

To FUSHANKS:

 

I had a much longer message stating far more, but I realized that the things I was saying wouldn't be necessary, and discussion-wise I'd be almost sinking to your level. I'll just leave it at this.

 

First off, I never said you were detestable because of your opinion, I think you're detestable for what you say.

 

You've made remarks about certain types of skinners, and were referring to them as if they are obscene, talentless, stupid, and undeserving members of this board. That is why I have a problem with you.

 

As far as insulting you about your work, it wasn't my true intention. I apologize for any perceived attack there. However, I do have a problem with the way you treat all these people like they are beneath you, and are undeserving for any reasons you give. You can have your opinion, but I don't take kindly to the insults you push in practically every message I've seen in this thread.

 

I'm sure a person of your intelligence should be able to state his opinion without acting in a negative manner to others. However, with every post you became increasingly aggresive with your negativity, and if there is one type of person here I look down upon, it's the negative type.

 

Now there are many thing's I could've said, but didn't. I'm offering peace here, as long as you are more thoughtful with your posts.

[FuShanks]

Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR

Why would I spend ten times the work trying to do something I know I don't have the skills to do?

 

...and there would be my point.

 

All you need to know about life you learned in college, right? What you'll learn by the end of college is that saying you learned something in college is a sure-fire way to get someone who's out of college to roll their eyes at you. Like this:

 

:

 

No one cares where you learned it. Either form your own opinions or at least have the decency to lie when you're just adopting someone else's.

 

On that note, stop taking me so seriously, k? I'm wordy, sue me. 90% of what I post in tongue-in-cheek. I'm not trying to attack anyone here. I'm trying to get people to do some original work. They'll beneift as artists and the community will benefit from the content.

 

To answer your question, no, I don't think people who recolor are mutants. Noobs, yes. Most definately. Tyros who need to take a risk and/or invest some time in a skin instead of scavenging existing skins to make The Ultimate Darth Maul New Hyper Alpha 2. I'd rather see a dozen mediocre original skins than a dozen variations of the same character. No more Merc Kyle. No more Dark Kyle. No more Ice Kyle, Fire Kyle, Super Kyle, Naked Kyle, Metal Kyle, anything Kyle. Create something new.

[evilhomernz]

well bringing the topic kicking ans screaming back not its rails

 

nice skin man im quite n00blike to this so how do you 'reskin' instead of jsut recolouring its parts? do you need to remodel it and if so how (brief references plz)

could some one plz tell me hwo coz ive only recoloured apparently coz i hve kept the core skin parts there and jsut chaged them

 

so how do i do like you have there and change the skin itself?

coz i have no idea ad reall appreciate somehelp

 

 

ok jsut had a look in effect isnt that jsut a repainted kyle skin?

like you used the same parts jsut redid all the artowkr on them?

or am i wrong? (no offence meant dood im jsut wondering what ive been doing LoL)

[Infinity Blade]

Fu.. Just stop it.

 

If you're not trying to offend, you're doing a bad job, and your wording isn't very good at some times.... So just stop it.

 

Making people feel what they're doing now is crap, doesn't make them strive to suceed, it makes them hate you. I will tell you this NOW.

 

What you're "trying" to do isn't working. If you want people to improve, encourage, not give them your tongue-in-cheek stuff. I HIGHLY doubt it's doing anything whatsoever.

 

---

 

Say, "yeah, that's good, now maybe make the shirt original..."

 

Not,

 

"What you do is entirely crap, and you aren't learning a thing, and you obviously have no business doing what you are doing."

 

All you are encouraging is people to hate your posts.

[Wes Janson SMR]

Originally posted by FuShanks

All you need to know about life you learned in college, right? What you'll learn by the end of college is that saying you learned something in college is a sure-fire way to get someone who's out of college to roll their eyes at you. Like this:

 

:

 

No one cares where you learned it. Either form your own opinions or at least have the decency to lie when you're just adopting someone else's.

 

On that note, stop taking me so seriously, k? I'm wordy, sue me. 90% of what I post in tongue-in-cheek. I'm not trying to attack anyone here. I'm trying to get people to do some original work. They'll beneift as artists and the community will benefit from the content.

 

No attacks, eh? Well, I'm not sure exactly what you're assuming about my educational upbringing, and I'm equally baffled about your philosophies on life (What exactly is "decent about lying?). Keep rolling your eyes, because pointing some kind of finger at me is severely skewing the point (and quite frankly is a little rude).

 

If you wan't 100% original work, with completley new hand-drawn texture, with professional grade quality, do it yourself. Of course you have the right to demand such things from this community; especially when we all have yet to see you contribute anything. But we all have lives, dude. And I'm not about to put my obligations on hold, just to appease two or three "skinning professional of JK".

 

If you don't like these skins, go ahead and critique the hell out of 'em if you wish. Just don't pull the "oh, but this texture's not original" ploy, and as long as you're respecful about it - which seems to be way too much to ask of some people around here.

 

And as always, if you don't like it, don't download it.

 

Now that the SDK's out, I'm confidant more people will step up to create more varried works, because we now have the tools to do so. But hey, these works that I've seen are original - regardless of the kinds of textures that they use. Just exactly how many "Mrec Kyles" have you seen running around these boards? As far as I know, there's only one.

[FuShanks]

Never have I been more misinterpreted than here. Calm down, get a thicker skin, and realize that you're not the center of the universe. Jeebus. I didn't attack anyone, I don't think anyone here is "beneath" me, and it would appear you really, really need to lighten up. I'm not being negative, I've simply stated my opinion that recolors shouldn't get the attention they are. Again, my opinion. You don't agree. That's fantastic.

 

Sinking to my level? Aggressive? Demanding? You don't know me, slick. I've been blunt, a little flip at times, but I've never insulted anyone, said they should give up, demanded anything of anyone, etc. You'll notice this is the only thread I've mentioned someone's work in, and it's because I think Jep is on his way to being one damn fine skinner. I didn't intend to start a fight, and I sure as hell wasn't looking for someone to put me down. You want to perhaps find out something about me before you make any more claims about what type of person I am, you have my email address. Otherwise, I'm sick of defending myself to someone who doesn't care.

 

BTW:

Lord Katarn (jumping on the Dark Kyle bandwagon

The point isn't that there's a Merc Kyle skin, it's that there's enough Kyle variations to create an entire game with nothing but. The man now has more outfits than Barbie. It was a joke, son. Lighten up. Stop taking everything I post as an attack, because none of it is. I'm abrasive, not aggressive. There's a difference. I do aggressive, too, but this wasn't it.

[Wes Janson SMR]

*holds up hands*

 

All right, all right. I think we've said what had to be said. I'm not taking this one step further - no need to press. We're done.

 

But I have to agree with your comment about Jep.

[Infinity Blade]

Whatever you say, Jack.

 

Maybe you're misunderstood, I dunno. I feel you have a long way to go to learn about etiquette when talking about other peoples work. I'm just not gonna bother with this thread anymore.

 

Perhaps you need to just learn to phrase yourself better. To be honest, I don't really care anymore. Now that I can actually work on levels and I figured out how to alter a problem with a texture, I can continue my work.

 

You just aren't worth my time.

[Waspie]

Man, I love the "this thread isn't worth my time" reaction. =)

 

Whatever the case, no matter how impressed the Jedi Knight "community" may be with a pack of twelve recoloured reborn skins or six-hundred Kyle variations, you have to keep in mind that if someone where to release a pack of twelve recoloured Quake3 skins, they'd be pretty much be looked down-upon by everybody.

 

And don't say "People like recolours, as it lets them personalize their characters more," or something. That's fine and good, but we don't need eleven different packs of twelve recoloured reborn skins.

[Wes Janson SMR]

That's true. And that's why there isn't any.

[Xeph]

Yes, we do need more original skins, but there will as surely be a billion recolors as there will surely be a billion oasis mods. The better skins and models will stand out, and will be more downloaded. Recolor all you like, but you're not developing your skills like you could be were you creating original skins. Practice makes better.

[FuShanks]

Whatever the case, no matter how impressed the Jedi Knight "community" may be with a pack of twelve recoloured reborn skins or six-hundred Kyle variations, you have to keep in mind that if someone where to release a pack of twelve recoloured Quake3 skins, they'd be pretty much be looked down-upon by everybody.

 

Recolor all you like, but you're not developing your skills like you could be were you creating original skins. Practice makes better.

Which is the crux of what I was trying to say. Better not to go into a room full of recolors and criticize the act of recoloring, I guess. Then again, I was never one to believe "popular opinion" was synonymous with "acceptable behavior".

 

P.S. infinity, don't preach to me about etiquette. Or bother to tell me I'm not worth your time. I could give a (obscenity deleted) about either.

[Wes Janson SMR]

Wait a sec. Let me ask you this:

 

1.) Do you believe that the re-use of textures is a good way for a novice skinner to get started in the roots?

 

2.) Do you belive in the re-use of textures as a way to make use of a pre-existing effect that you otherwise would need to make on your own? Hair, for example.

[FuShanks]

Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR

Wait a sec. Let me ask you this:

 

1.) Do you believe that the re-use of textures is a good way for a novice skinner to get started in the roots?

As strictly a learning tool, yes. But in the long run you're going to familiarize yourself with the program (Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, the Gimp, et al), not the aspects of skinning. Also, such exercizes (since that's all they are) are better left for your personal use.

 

With recolors, alignment issues and seams have already been taken care of by the original artist. The best way to learn skinning is to attempt to make a seamless skin from scratch. It's prolly not going to look very good, but you'll have more respect for someone's work before you go recoloring it.

 

2.) Do you belive in the re-use of textures as a way to make use of a pre-existing effect that you otherwise would need to make on your own? Hair, for example.

No. Making hair is relatively simple. There are several means of creating realistic hair in Photoshop, the most common two being photosourcing and custom brushes. Such methods are easily adapted to other programs as well. Ditto for anything else. I, and many other skin artists, have a library of such custom textures built up over time that we incorporate into new skins. Reusing your own material is fine. It's your material. Skinning takes time, and good skinning takes even more. Simply owning a paint program does not a skinner make.

[Wes Janson SMR]

Hmm..

 

All right. Fair enough. I can't arge with that - absolutely respectable answers.

 

'Nother question.

 

3.) What if the general mass's desire for change doesn't go past a simple re-color. Now, I'm talking about Single Player skin varriations here. If the general masses thought that a certain recolored skin was very cool and worth downlaoding, would you still frown upon that? Even if the author admits that the skin is simply a re-color.

 

Now, reasons why they couldn't do it themselves could be endless: too busy, too lazy, don't have the basic tools, etc. Is it "respectable", in your opinion, for such a skin to be released?

[FuShanks]

Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR

Hmm..

 

All right. Fair enough. I can't arge with that - absolutely respectable answers.

 

'Nother question.

 

3.) What if the general mass's desire for change doesn't go past a simple re-color. Now, I'm talking about Single Player skin varriations here. If the general masses thought that a certain recolored skin was very cool and worth downlaoding, would you still frown upon that? Even if the author admits that the skin is simply a re-color.

 

Now, reasons why they couldn't do it themselves could be endless: too busy, too lazy, don't have the basic tools, etc. Is it "respectable", in your opinion, for such a skin to be released?

 

That's a very specific set of crcumstances you've provided, but it deftly maneuvers through most of my issues with recolors.

 

Hey, if the people want it and the creator acknowledges it, then great. If the original author okays it, fine. Winamp still hosts a dozen recolors for each popular skin on their site. They're listed as recolors, the original artist is credited, and most times permission is received before the skin is made.

 

But most of these JK2 skins are unsolicted (hence the dozens of duplicate skins: Dark Kyle, Maul, etc.). On top of that, they're being touted on the front page as new skins with no mention of the original material. So some kid who slaves away creating an original skin is going to get less attention than someone who recolored one of Raven's skins. If you do something established (Maul) you get more attention than something original. Unfortunately, that's how it goes. (Hell, I'm guilty of it myself, to an extent. I'm making Star Wars skins instead of completely original Q3A skins ) It's like a guaranteed fan base.

 

In short, the only issue I'd have with that is entirely personal, and I really don't expect anything to be done about it. However, what you described isn't how things are being handled around here, so it's kind of moot.

[psychospaz]

FuShanks: THE PEEPLE W3rK H4rd. I duN s33 anY orgininal werk frum yoo!!! gO aw4y you ar3 nOT weLCOme hERe if yoU meAN to FLamE All harD woRKIng skiN reCOlorERs.!@! Stop BEinG sO CLOSEMINDED. RetouCHING skINS iS harder TH45n yoU thiNK. WHere Aer YOUR reCOLORES. I THINk YOU juST SUck SO You aer BEIng st00piD.

 

BtW... DarK KYle skIn aer NICE!!!

[Wes Janson SMR]

*shakes head at psychospaz*

 

I won't say anything about that... *sigh*

 

Okay, Fu. Now we're getting somewhere in this point-of-view subject. My point wasn't moot, as it led you to answer the way you did, and allowed for some understanding.

 

It seems you're not so much against the recolor or re-use of texture, as you are for giving credit where credit is due - and that the harder-working individual rightfully deserves more attention.

 

Boy, I can really see that in your shoes. And when you explain your opinions that way, there's not much in the way to argue with. And you know what? I agree with you whole-heartily on that aspect.

 

I guess it's just one of those things that should happen, but just won't happen - like 100% fair court cases that always bring justice where it's due.

 

You seem sensible enough (though a little bit of a know-it-all), so I won't preach to you the unfairness of life. I really don't see the epidemic your quite describing...yet. That's not to say that it won't happen. On further thought, it probably will start to creep up a lot sooner as more and more people dig their heals into skinning.

 

But if that be the case, then that means that the true "make-from-scratch" artist has to get down and dirty on his projects and do a bit of strategic planning. If there are fifty different Mauls out there, then I, for one, probably wouldn’t do one. Unless mine was absolute kickass with extremely fine details, modeled horns, and fully animated cloak and working double blade.

 

As bad as it'll be for the harder-working artist, it'll be good for them in the effect that it'll force them to be more dynamic with originality and quality of work. Believe it or not, the competition may be a good thing.

 

I, for one, am not planning on being a professional skinner in this community. My department is mainly sound engineering - that's more my calling than art. That's not to say that skinning wasn't fun. I really got into it, and when I came up with a neat concept, I worked a little at it - using tools completely alien to me, and came out with something pretty nice.

 

I'm not gonna apologize for re-coloring Raven's skins, and I don't have to. At the very least, I did give credit where it was do, as I mentioned that it's simply a re-coloring of the original skin design - the roughed-up one, of course, being the modified version.

 

Well, I know I keep using myself as an example, but it's one that I know of best. Unfortunately, I can see your point when you say not everyone will follow such examples and simply claim the hard original work for their own. But on the flip-side, I don't think that's really intended a lot of the time. And I said before that re-colors aren't tough to spot, so one person can't kid the entire room.

 

What else can I say about this? As long as there are newbies and intermediates at skinning, there will always be re-colors and texture variants from the original - especially at this crucial first month of the game release; mostly because we didn't have the ability to import new models.

 

Give it time. Eventually, the more original work you're looking for is more likely to sprout, and the truly talented artists will get their just credit. People will eventually tire themselves of creating "yet another Dark Kyle" and move on.

 

But for now, I'm enjoying a rather nice collection of Dark Kyles.

 

And as for our personal stakes in this argument, we're probably not gonna produce anything to really sway each other's view to the other side. But I'm glad to say that I understand yours a whole lot more, and I thoroughly respect it.

[symbiosis]

Spaz was joking.

[Wes Janson SMR]

Yes. Quite. '-)