Not a whine! Drain heals?

[TheDarkSide]

Taking a look at the Dark Side force powers, it's easy to see they are offensive type powers and are based solely on doing something (usually evil ) to someone else. Grip, Lightning, Rage, even Team Energize.

Light side powers are entirely defensive in nature, and mostly center on doing something to help themselves out. Heal, Absorb, Protect. Mindtrick is borderline; it is the only light power that is projected outward, but at the same time, does no damage. It is a stealth manuever, not a firepower type maneuver, and has it's roots based in defensive use as much as offensive.

 

Now given this, why is Drain allowed to heal a Dark Jedi? Usually the defense given is that since light jedi are allowed to heal, Dark Side users need some sort of healing to counter that. I think that is misguided. The entire range of dark powers are counters to Heal, every single one of them either removes the ability to heal (force suck aka drain) or removes the result of the heal. Those ARE counters.

Given that dark powers are supposed to be offensive, and light powers defensive, how do you justify giving the dark side a defensive power? It appears to be an imbalance in the force, given that the light side doesn't have a reciprocal attack capability.

Please keep the flames extinguished, I'm just trying to have a NORMAL discussion and debate on this.

 

Thanks in advance for your civility!

 

TDS

[linxmexx]

My opinion is that drain is still an offensive force to use since dark jedi can take away your Force Power. So where does this FP go? It's just a shame that the developers decided to place that FP into health for the dark jedi, and not into the force pool instead.

 

But like everything else there is a counter and that is called ABSORB for the light sided jedi. Thats all from me.

 

Hope that was enough of a light-hearted debate for ya

[Kuroshi]

Originally posted by TheDarkSide

Mindtrick is borderline; it is the only light power that is projected outward, but at the same time, does no damage. It is a stealth manuever, not a firepower type maneuver, and has it's roots based in defensive use as much as offensive.

 

Remember that you said this. The same argument can be used for drain.

 

The entire range of dark powers are counters to Heal

 

I could say that all Light force powers are counters to damage, and all guns are counters to heal. I wouldn't agree with my reasoning, though, as I don't really agree with yours. Heal is instantaneous and will work as long as you have the force power. Nothing can stop it short of drain, which is the sole real counter.

 

Given that dark powers are supposed to be offensive, and light powers defensive, how do you justify giving the dark side a defensive power? It appears to be an imbalance in the force, given that the light side doesn't have a reciprocal attack capability.

 

You have already said that the Light side has an offensive ability. Your argument fails because it is based on the assumption that the Light side is defense only and the Dark is offense only, yet you concede that it isn't true.

[gaeb]

Heh, do you play the dark side? Didn't think so.

 

SOME DAY, when you turn, you will drain your opponent down to Zero Force, then they smack you twice with the saber as you're doing it, and you're sitting there at 5 health and almost FULL FORCE while they're at 100 health 100 shields and no force, THEN you're going to see the weakness in drain!!!!!!!!!!

 

Don't believe it? It happens to us who make the (hopefully one time) mistake of relying on drain, _believe_ me. Any decent light jedi who wasn't fast enough to tap 'absorb' will saber me while I'm draining them. Net result? Their health remains constant, mine drops lots. One on one, I can't rely on grip/lightning to make up the difference - Grip because it costs too much to initiate (more than half the bar) after draining, and lightning because it's just too slow and leaves them time to hit me for the final 5 health.

 

Heh. Drain is a great power, well balanced. It requires YOUR force to heal... I can't do jack if you have absorb up or no force. Which is critical when you're running around at 5 health and just stepping on a saber will kill you

 

- Gaeb

[TheDarkSide]

Yeah, i kinda realize I shot myself on the foot with this one. I was attempting to retort to somebody saying "but mindtrick is offensive", without anyone having brought it up yet. Let me revoke that statement....... Mindtrick is not offensive, it does not do damage to an opponent. It is protective. Now debate, without easy cop-out of saying I shot my own argument down

 

In fact let me reclassify the dark side and light side, not as offensive and defensive, but rather directly injurious and directly protective.

 

Under this new pretense, how is it balanced if the dark side gets a protective power, while the light goes without an injurious one?

 

 

Heal is instantaneous and will work as long as you have the force power. Nothing can stop it short of drain, which is the sole real counter.

This isn't quite true, heal level 3 is instantaneous but requires 1/4 of your force pool, and thus only works if u have *enough* force power, not just any. And inicidentally the force usage is the same whether you are at 90 health or 50...it's doesn't use less force if you have only a little health damage, and there is a delay in how quickly you can use heal again .

I would argue that there are plenty of counters to heal, besides drain, #1 being getting the light jedi to drain himself for u (i.e. use his own force powers, bringing his pool down), #2 being any number of heavy stance swings, #3 the grip and drop method, or push. #4 guns like the repeater-alt/fire. You might want to claim that gun fire like that can be pushed back....well go look at counter #1 above. My point is there are plenty of counters besides just drain.

 

Linxmexx's solution is one that is bandied about by plenty of people and has always been met with some sort of scorn. The reason given though is usually along the lines of well light have heal, dark side needs this to counter....... instead of the more obvious, . it creates a force perpetual motion machine . You make drain cost no force power to use. And I think we can all agree that would be unbalanced, no matter what side of the spectrum you fall on.

 

I'm not here to ask for drain to be nerfed or for solutions, really just looking for someone to tell me how to justify the dark side getting a light side power....

[TheDarkSide]

hahaha gaeb...

I have played Dark Side, I started out that way, but turned to light because EVERYONE ELSE WAS PLAYING DARK in the beginning and I found it a pretty good challenge.

 

In response to your situation, I will ask you.....have you ever used the backwards key? There is no way for a Light Jedi now forceless to get close enough to saber you without you letting him. He can't force push, pull, or saber throw and you run backwards at the same speed I can run forwards. Forceless, the light jedi is extremely vulnerable (i.e can't block) either push or pull. Neither of which use more than a third to a quarter of your force pool.

 

Note I have beaten my fair share of drain -fill in the derogatory word du jour, and I don't think that drain doesn't have a counter. I don't find this power so egragious that I'm heading for the hills. Just putting in my two cents.

 

TDS

[gaeb]

There's a BACKWARDS key?!

 

Actually I think backward run needs to be nerfed, but only because of the power it gives someone with a gun.

 

You write: "There is no way for a Light Jedi now forceless to get close enough to saber you without you letting him."

 

And: "I have beaten my fair share of drain -fill in the derogatory word du jour, and I don't think that drain doesn't have a counter."

 

So obviously you don't think Drain is overpowered. So just what IS your beef? Drain is not the end all be all - as you SAID.... so what's the problem with it? I think it's been balanced very well, and it's use was thought out.

 

Oh. Wait. I see. "I'm not here to ask for drain to be nerfed or for solutions, really just looking for someone to tell me how to justify the dark side getting a light side power...." ...

 

Well, buddy, that's your subjective opinion. I have my own subjective opinions, but I don't let it change the OBJECTIVE way I play the game. This is Drain. This is what it does. This is what counters it. This is where it will get you in trouble. Why concentrate on whether or not it "should" be there in the first place, unless you have enough money to buy off Raven and force them to patch the game to what YOUR ideal game is? Then, of course, things would be the way they SHOULD be!

 

- Gaeb

[Sartis]

The reason why Drain does a heal and force drains... it's the main power of darkside, just as Absorb is the main of Lightside.. Its our main counter and by god it has a bonus too just like yours. Does there need to be a logical reason WHY it heals? Are you saying that dark jedi have no healing powers what so ever? I think drain is a good way to incorporate Dark Jedi healing. You take something from someone and it heals you.

 

Take Exar Kun(Sith Lord) from EU he used the lifeforce of the whole Massassi race to bind his spirit so that he may come back again. He took to gain. I don't think Ravensoft could have figured out a better heal for the Darkside than this. Cause really Absorb protects you from all Darkside powers but Dark Rage, Wich you can just use force protect against.

 

I'll say it here again. Drain is major Darkside counter to light side powers, same with how Absorb is lightside counters to Darkside you just have to know when to use them. Do you realize how underpowered the Dark Side would be without drain? All you would have is lightside jedi running around with Force Protect on(since we can't drain to take it down), healing at every whim, push/pulling us to they're feet while laughing since we try to use our damaging powers on them they put on absorb.

 

Why do these topics keep coming up, I mean really is it because Lightside is jealous because our main counter is offensive and it also heals us in the process? I've met many light jedi who could turn absorb on in time for me not to drain them fully, I dont really understand why others can't seem too. If you see someone you know who drains, tap that absorb key on and hound him down don't just let him run. Pull him to you.

[gaeb]

Y'know, in our local network duels with a friend of mine (who owns me, saberwise), he works as fast as possible to hit Absorb, preferably before I can get any drain off. Then he comes after me, swinging all the while, and I duck and dodge like MAD because if I attack he'll push/pull me onto my back and kill me. This goes on until the absorb wears off, then I chase him around - but if he's managed to get a few hits in, he goes for the kill. It comes out pretty close, I usually win only because of patience and the abuse of force powers over actual saber skill, gripping and pushing for the kill when he's low on force.

 

The most amusing thing is that, at the end of his rampage, when absorb is gone and he has NO force left... I'm often damaged, hurt, and in the position to die in one swing. And Drain is... useless. Absolutely useless. I might as well not even have it when I play him. Sure, if I get enough distance I'll try to drain as he comes back, but he'll chase me (without swinging!) and the second my hand goes up for anything, he'll cut me in half. There are no wild attacks, everything is well thought out, it comes down to timing and trickiness. Running and swinging like mad would have either of us dead in half a second.

 

This game is well balanced.

 

- Gaeb

[TheDarkSide]

Yikes, Gaeb!

 

I was just looking for some spirited debate. I never asked for a patch, or for the game to be how I think it *SHOULD* be. All I asked for was opinions on the point I raised. I never forced my opinion on anyone...in fact I shot down a widely proposed nerf of drain in one of my posts.

 

I was looking for pretty much a post exactly like Sartis's right above this one, and now the one you just posted.

 

Sartis,

Like I said, I don't think Drain is uncounterable...it has its counters, of which I try to proficiently employ. I love getting into a good fight where I get in a heavy stance hit and immediately switch to absorb cuz I know my dark side buddy always goes for the drain right after I get a good strike in

You give a good argument for why it's acceptable for Dark Siders to have a healing portion to their drain, but......

 

Do you realize how underpowered the Dark Side would be without drain?

 

Yes I do, but if you re-read my posts, I never asked for the DS to be without drain...I'm solely talking about the healing aspect of it, not the force sucking aspect. I think without the healing part of Drain, it still acts as the major counter of the Dark side against LS powers. (notice to everyone...this is my subjective opinion!! )

 

As to why I'm bringing it up....jealousy? Nah. It's hard to be jealous of something that doesn't really exist It just struck me that drain as a healing function seemed out of place/character for a dark side power. Your EU example was one I wasn't aware of. My delving into the EU stopped after the Zahn trilogy for reasons I don't even quite remember! I started reading the Jedi Academy books and got turned off quickly.

 

TDS

[TheDarkSide]

As i've been thinking about things in this thread, it occurred to me that the idea of having a 'counter' to a light side power like absorb strikes me as absurd. The word counter implies that with whatever is going on you are at a disadvantage....but Absorb does nothing more than even the playing field force wise. Sure you can make the claim that the absorber can still use a heal or try a push or pull. But any experienced absorber you'll notice doesn't do this very often, for the fact that every push pull or whatever chews up your absorb time something fierce, and just starts the inevitable drain sooner if you don't get the kill in.

 

The battle you describe gaeb is almost exactly what goes on when my best friend and I duel. He is an experienced, savvy dark sider, and our duels almost always come down to the wire.

 

IMO, Absorb doesn't give the LS an advantage as much as it just operates like a Ysalimari pickup....or a duel challenge in FFA. It accentuates the saber aspect of the game ala what Gaeb described.

 

TDS

[gaeb]

See, a spirited subjective debate amounts to religious differences, which never got anyone ANYWHERE. You can't say "should" without "I think" alongside it, if you want to be technically correct, because otherwise all you get is someone bashing your opinion while you defend it righteously, and no one gets anywhere!!!!

 

Don't take any offense, TDS, I'm just working out some frustration on you that I've gotten from reading some of the other posts, especially in the feedback forum. People who think things SHOULD be some way or another, who haven't put in the time or energy to develop real skill or strategies to counter the situations frustrating them.

 

If you want a spirited debate based entirely on the fantasy series... I'll also point to the Exar Kun situation. And the fact that Vader temporarily healed himself with the Dark Side (not the light side, just his raging anger) in the book that was written between the movies (the one that introduced and killed Dash Rendar, SHADOWS OF THE EMPIRE, there we go) and there you have the DARK SIDE being used to HEAL. And Vader seemed to think that with enough training, he could entirely regenerate his devestated body with his anger alone. Look it up if you don't believe me.

 

So, I don't question which side deserves what power. I think that these 'powers' are just put in to make this 'game' more enjoyable, and though I let my imagination take flights of fancy as to who deserves what, it's obvious that Luke (and Jaina, come to think of it) have both used both the light side and the Dark Side before, and neither seemed "restricted" ... it wasn't like they had to take time out and reallocate their force points They just used it. As if they could have all along.

 

I dunno. Sorry to be so harsh on you. Good luck with your debate.

 

- Gaeb

[Kuroshi]

Originally posted by TheDarkSide

This isn't quite true, heal level 3 is instantaneous but requires 1/4 of your force pool, and thus only works if u have *enough* force power, not just any.

 

That's what I was getting at when I said 'the force power' rather than 'force power' but thanks for clarifying.

 

Edit: Something I just thought about, but it seems everyone only argues about balance between the third level of all abilities. What about the first and second spheres? =)

[TheDarkSide]

good point kuro. Also hand in hand with that point is that we are mostly all playing on Jedi Master force level servers. People maxed out not just on 1 or 2 powers, but ALL but 1 or 2 powers.

It doesn't surprise me at all really that with uber-jedi running around all over the place that things are out of whack.

 

Playing on a slightly lower level server will have all sorts of balancing effects. When I'm not on a Master level server, the first thing I nerf is my saber offense level 3, and usually knock my saber throw down to 1... sometimes knock it down all the way. Trying to figure out what exactly saber defense level 3 will buy you, but I'm too afraid to turn it off on a pub server and find out

 

The lower force level you go, the less you will see DFA or other subjective imbalances because you have to commit a greater % of points to be able to do it. Points that I'll put in push or pull that can counter most of those, especially when the offender has nerfed his own abilities to defend against those things.... As a light sider, I've often wondered, does a grip stop a DFA move in mid air?

 

No offense taken Gaeb. I realized I was starting to react to things outside this particular thread with some of my points too. I read Shadow right after it came out and vaguely remember what you're referring to. One of these days when my carpal tunnel acts up and I can't move the mouse, I'll go back and read thru my EU collection (shadows and the zahn books all 5 of them).

 

Thanks for posts, and here's to smacking down the whiners!

 

 

TDS