An idea to stop drain whores.

[Demangel]

Dude you guys really are overestimating the power of drain... really...

 

I have yet to come into a guy who simply uses drain a lot, who I can't beat enough to give as good as I got...

 

Thus, there is no effective counter to drain. There is if you play smart... the question is deine what you call a counter?

 

Is it a force ability? A saber style? for me jumping and rolling works well enough... Sure I still get drained away, but regardless absorb works 99% of the time when it counts...

 

lets list what drain does:

 

Drains force power from an enemy, and gives you hit points (health).

 

Ok first off the only real thing drain does that is bad is drain your force powers... but so what? you know how many times I have been drain gripped? I waited two seconds for mana to come back then pulled or pushed...

 

If I am stupid enough to face two guys, I keep moving making it hard to double team me with one guy draining one guy gripping...

 

does it always work? again I say no... if it worked every time there would be no challenge...

 

The solution is thus:

 

Fix absorb so it does what it sounds like it should do.

 

for example, it should give you force BACK, and NOT have such an obvious glow around it, saying hi I'm safe, don't use force or I will be better off for it. though make it detectable somehow, maybe keep the glow, but dull it so it's less obvious at a distance...

 

when used against drain the guy using drain should get NO health back. As I said before when a guy uses absorb I can still drain him and get health back every time. It's less speedy than if he didn't have absorb on but still enough to keep me going without resorting to power ups...

 

If you find drain being used too much in duels on your server find a server either without force powers or with the lowest Jedi point spending ability, like a simple jedi server, not a jedi master one, got it?

 

The problem with backwards running drain is harder to fix without changing some of the mechanics in the game that already work to well to remove. for example removing quick backwards running, and making it a slow walking move, might be a mistake for others in a fighting retreat, or when you need to correct your saber swing in a way only running backwards can fix.

 

Drain is fine, fix the other balancing issues instead. saber throw is fine also... I mean it's not a homing saber like in SP now is it? NO! if you get hit too much by saber throwing, try using a style besides strong style for a change or stop attacking so much for a change and use your defensive abilities once in a while. I rarely get hurt by a saber while in light mode facing the guy doing the throw!

 

If I am fighting a guy and he drops me to the ground on low HP's and gets a lucky saber throw on me that kills me I might bitch, but not cuz he threw the saber, but because I screwed up...

 

/end of rant number 2

[Broode]

What some of you don't seem to understand about the whole drain vs absorb thing is that absorb is not an easy counter and drain is an easy skill to use. An easy skill should have an easy counter, and a hard one a hard counter. All drain is is holding the button till they're out of mana, and absorb is MUCH more difficult to use effectively. Any newbie on their first game could drain whore, but how many newbs do you see effectively countering drain with absorb?

 

Did you ever think of those not on cable? By the time we've seen them using drain and try to turn on absorb, our mana is already gone. And the fact that using absorb turnes you into a big neon sign that says: don't use force on me! means that absorb is a really hard counter to drain.

 

The way to fix it would either be to boost absorb somehow (like make it invisible till your hit or something) or nerf drain (reduce range, long warmup time, forced to stand still or walk slow etc).

 

And regarding drain vs heal, well, why would anyone opt for heal? Drain has exactly the same effect exept it works faster and empties your opponents mana pool. I am aware that there are heal whores who just run around healing, and I have yet to encounter one, but is it too hard to pull them to your feet and slice them? Or maybe you could try to catch up, using roll or by cutting them off, and then using an attack style that doesnt require you to run in, take one big long slow swing and back out?

 

Which gets me on to heavy style. You need to have to walk slower using it or something because (in NF - dont get me started on the whole push/pull thing) its almost uncounterable by light or medium. See, all the heavyists out there have to do is to run in while taking the sideways swipe and run out. Anyone using light/med would have to get out of the way of that swing, and to take advantage of heavys slow swinging speed they would then have to chase them down - and by that time they are already swinging again, and they kill you. The whole speed/damage balence doesn't work because it was balenced on the assumation that everyone would stay in CQB, but if you are only close to each other for enough time to deliver one hit, which stance are you going to choose? Thats right, heavy. Coupled with that very buggy and downright lame DFA move, and that IS unbalenced.

 

Anyway, in conclusion, this game needs some serious patching.

[Forhekset]

I really, really wish we had a forum specifically for whining/bitching/complaining about force powers and how this or that needs to be made more or less powerful etc etc. There's wayyyyyyyy too many of these types of posts around here.

 

I mean jeez dude, you think you're the first person to complain about drain? Go find one of the other 5,000 posts about drain and do your griping in that one.

 

No offense but I hate seeing interesting threads bumped down by all these damn newbie posts talking about the same crap that's been discussed into the ground 100 times before. I know the search engine is disabled, but why don't you browse the forums a bit before starting a new thread?

[gaeb]

And then there's all this amusing talk of "countering" drain with absorb... "whine whine need counter whine whine" HEY! Maybe I could use absorb offensively! Since I know my opponent can't push or pull me with it up, I should slap it up the second I get nearby, knock him down and kill him! What a thought!!!! I need to go lie down now...

 

 

The response to "drain should *whine* only work if your life is too low!" has been responded to already in depth. In essence - BRAVO: That means your opponent will HAVE to use heavy stance to kill you, and you will HAVE to use heavy stance to kill him. Because if you do less than 100 damage, he'll drain, and if he does less than 100 damage, you'll heal. This isn't rocket science. Think about the consequences of your proposed changes.

 

This game is well balanced, if you take the time to learn it. My only real beef is bunny hopping and backwards run - the first is a bug, the second gives too much power to people running backward with a ranged weapon or attack. The force powers and saber styles ARE well balanced for the context in which they were designed.

 

- Gaeb

[zufuss]

I have come to the conclusion that very few of you are professional gamers. You play maybe an hour everyday and really don't play and get a good feel for everything out there. In fact im sure many of you play the same people everyday...thats what i am hearing here. "I play my friend ALL the time and we have such close battles..blah blah blah."

 

The fact of the matter is I have been playing video games hardcore since highschool. I was a computer nerd, and still am. I play games and i play them hard, and i also know when there is a SEVERE imbalance in a game.

 

Stratus appears to know what im talking about. If YOU dont think drain is imbalanced, i suggest you head over to http://www.teamwarfare.com/ and sign up for their Jedi Knight 1v1 FF duel ladder. Over 170 people on it, its WHERE the competition is. You try and get into the top 20, youll find out what true gayness lies in the heart of jk2.

 

People here play for keeps and play to win. So do I. The only thing being is i don't play gay games. Why? Because although yes maybe during their first few weeks of glory they seem great, but once the hardcore gamers start getting things down...the game can really go down the ****ter fast.

 

Thats where i see jk2 going soon, if some of these powers aren't balanced out.

 

Btw if you read correctly IM NOT JUST BASHING DRAIN. heal is pretty bad in itself, theres nothing more agrivating then 2 healers duking it out, and here i am forcing this guy to head 4-5-6-7-8 times!! to my zero, once, and if their luck twice times. And then all of a sudden they get a lucky heavy strike, or i get knocked down by a pull fag that does nothing but wait till you attack.

 

There are some serious flaw in this game, and im pointing them out. I am not flaming or whining.

 

I bet most of you are at work sitting at your desk with nothing better to do than post here. You wait till you get home to play a bit. While i have been in my room playing for hours on end.

 

Im not saying im better than you, in fact im nerdier and probably dorkier then the majority of you all. But i know my ****, and this is ****.

 

And please if your going to flame me come up with something better then "get better at the game" or "stop sucking" because frankly your just screaming newb.

[gaeb]

"I R 1337 G@MR!" Does this deserve a response?

 

"And then all of a sudden they get a lucky heavy strike, or i get knocked down by a pull fag that does nothing but wait till you attack."

 

Well, if they hit you, obviously it was a combination of luck and your lack of skill at that moment. Everyone gets hit, everyone dies. Get used to it.

 

The "pull fag" comment is pretty amusing. The easiest kills in the game come from knocking your opponent down and smacking them with that oversized glowstick. If they are impatient or uneducated, they'll do just that, come in swinging, get knocked down, and die.

 

I play TFFA and CTF. I have dueled on my apartment's private network, and I do just what you describe - wait for absorb to wear off, then drain you to zero and keep you there, while abusing you with the force for the kill. Wow. Not a lot of saber skill required there, fortunately for me.

 

Somehow, my buddy manages to kill me even though I possess this 1337 strategy. He pops up absorb, attacks me - and I don't dare swing, cuz I'll be on my ass the second I do - and tries to get the kill that way. Sometimes he does. If I couldn't run backwards as fast as he can run forwards, he'd get a lot more kills.

 

Fix backwards run speed and the game will change dramatically. Then, if the mood still strikes you and you are still getting smacked down despite your 1337 G@MR status, come back and beg for some balancing work.

 

- Gaeb

[Sartis]

zuffuss, I'm sorry but I have to say I've been playing games probably a hell of a lot longer than you. Do I play 1 or 2 hours a day, add a few more hours on that and you got your answer. Do I dominate most of the matches, Yes.

 

Telling everybody about how much of an 'uber gamer' you are really isn't putting anything towards your imbalance fight. All its really doing is making you look like your 'holier than thou' and nobody elses opinion matters because you, yourself believe that in your mind you must be playing more and better than these other people here, and they don't know what they are talking about because they don't totally agree with you.

 

Sure the game has its imbalances, but most of these are countered in ways that are either not so obvious or pretty dumb. All I can really say is try to play better if you want to win. Complaining on these boards about the imbalance, then insulting everybody because they don't agree with you is well rather childish. That last post reminded me of those people I see in game where they talk alot, but don't have anyting to back it up with.

 

Example: Streets map, I go around tossing everybody off(why you ask? because I can saber in other levels, whats the point of swinging one around wildley in this when peopel are just going to push/pull/grip me anyways) I'm in the lead by about 25 kills from the 2nd place person, someone starts bitching that I have no skill, and that I would get totally owned by a saber. So next map comes along, I challenge the complainer of last match. 2 seconds later he dies, we go for a rematch, 5 seconds he dies. Few more rematches score is Me 13, Him 0. After that the server is laughing at him due to his cocky talk in the last level, and of course continues just ot keep his face calling me a cheater and that I must have the infinite force/health.

 

I think you assume too much, how about giving your fellow players some respect. Do i think the game needs some balancing, Yes a little. Mostly in the Guns vs sabers, perferably a heavy stance fix(for hit detection), and well make light stance useful. Do I believe force powers are balanced? no, they are close but real problem with drain is the ability to use grip/lightning RIGHT after put a few second delay in there and I think we have that balanced, Make heal take longer/more force and there thats balanced too.

 

Do I use Drain to drain people to 0? Yes all the time, so much easier to slice you down when your not healing 10 times while I try to kill you, is that so unfair of me to take away your ability to use heal? When one force takes away all my abilities against you but Dark Rage? I guess so, my bad. I newb. And if anybody says that drain then saber the person to death takes no skill, man think before you speak because to be honest it does take skill. To cry about drain because you cannot get that absorb on fast enough, or you don't know how to dodge people and surprise attack them. Well thats your problem, I'm finding it funny you being such a leet gamer and all that play so much more than the rest of us 'common' folk and having so much more skill can't figure out what most of this board has already.

 

zuffuss re read what you wrote, it was well insulting, childish, and well looked like a thoughtful two year old's tempertantrum. I'm sorry if you don't have the skill to play this game against the better players out there, but if you ask for our response you got it. Don't insult us by acting like your better than us, your not that is clear to see from your attitudte, grow up.

[zufuss]

Yea you fight somone who doesn't pull unless you attack. Its very common. Ive fought and lost to these people. And then when my turn comes around again i try the same tactic. Ive gone 2 minutes chasing a guy around waiting for him to attack w/o me attacking either..he didnt untill i finally gave in...immediately got pulled down and died. yeah real fun. Ive run into this type of player alot, and its legit.

 

The worst though if you REALLY wanna get down to the nitty gritty. I ran into a player last. I stood still, stayed in a defensive position with FULL force bar. And Aparantly if you roll into a person while pulling you can be knocked down 90% of the time..go try it..its great fun! (Yeah)

 

Also if your attaker is in heavy stance and you knock him down and go in for the kill he can can a 40+ damage jab while hes still getting up for an instant kill...if i knock somone down i shouldnt have to worry about healing before going in. You probably don't know what im talking about in this one...but youll find out soon enough.

 

All of these are spammable. And what one can spam many others will follow. Sure some of you might be honorable fighters...but your few, and you certainly wont make it anywhere on the ladders. And as for "goin in for the kill" untill the day they slow down back peddle its never going to be affective...unless of course you stand still and drain...yea right.

 

The problem is everything ive said on this board is the truth, and id say it to your face in real life...why? Because nothing ive said was truly insulting or mean spirited.

 

Would you truly say i sucked and needed to "get better" or "play more, newbie" or "ok uber 3l33t gamer" to my face in real life at a lan? NO. Yall get on here don't make any positive criticism except a very few, and for the most part provide NOTHING to this discussion.

[zufuss]

you obviously didnt read my post. You can play games alot and be a professional gamer and still not be "the best". Im not sitting here calling myself an uber gamer. Im telling you i play this game ALOT and experience alot more "styles" if you want. I am telling you what problems your gunna face in the future and whats going to kill this game.

 

Im not trying to exert my authority over anyone. I'm striving and letting it be known what problems do exist in this game. And all i get are comments like "get better" "stop whining" "you lamer" "ok, uber 3733+ gamer".

 

Your calling me childish, and insulting? Who have i insulted. I love video games...i play them to death. I recognize what makes a game flawed in many aspects alot easier then most people. Does this make me a better gamer or UBER over you? NO. I am telling you if you want this game to be played longer then 6 months and want something Proffessional and worthwhile to come out of it (rather then the last few couple hundred dinosaurs that will be playing it 6 months from now) some things have got to be changed.

 

I started off nice, but when people attack my position calling me newb, lamer, go learn how to play, i get insulted. I at least don't resort to name calling and telling people "YOU ARE DUMB YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO PLAY THIS GAME, GO LEARN HOW TO PLAY NEWBIE."

 

yea uh huh.

[*T¥RANITH*]

Sorry but I have to say this.

Light side, and dark side.

They're balanced

Live with it

Play the game

Stop whining cos u can't kill them

Get better

[gaeb]

Hint: Light mode can attack and recover before they can pull a good share of the time. Especially with internet lag... that was over a 10MB LAN. Again, the backward run speed is the real problem. Or did you try running up to them and kicking off of their face? As for "roll into a person while pulling" ... christ, did you READ the links I left? It's covered there. Obviously if I went so far as to post it to help people confused by the topic, I probably already knew of it's existence.

 

You're getting the same response the last 30 or so people have on this topic... if the way you presented your case mirrored theirs in many ways, then perhaps we all assumed you were just as full of yourself as they were. The game obviously was designed just for them, far be it from them to work hard enough to learn the skills neccessary to counter those dastardly tactics that leave them dead time and time again.

 

As for positive criticism - it's been covered. Over. And Over. Drain shouldn't cost less. It comes down to timing. Yes, drain has range, it also has the LOS restriction (a major one! duck around a corner or behind a box and drain is nullified). You can't just tap drain and expect to get anything worthwhile unless you know the opponent is out of force, and even so it will take up a good chunk of your force for tapping it, just like force grip. You need to hold it for a second to fully drain them. The window is small, but it is large enough to dodge or turn on absorb (an incredibly cheap power, imo) or run if you need to. This has all been covered before. You aren't bringing a new topic, you're suggesting YOUR idea for how to make drain ideal. I could see the range being lowered slightly... but I could also see the COST OF HEAL increasing, the cost of absorb increasing, etc etc etc.

 

Why not leave it to the professionals (Those guys that designed this game!) to balance the powers (if it's even needed) and enjoy the game for what it's worth. If you can't counter the drain tactic the way it stands (one of the lesser evils, really), then I can't help you.

 

- Gaeb

[Guest HertogJan]

I don't like being drained... I suck against a drainer. All I want is a solution against drainers; whether it is a fix by raven or a good counter.

 

But EVERY damn pos tabout drain I read here, says:

"Use absorb"...

 

AND WHAT IF I DON'T WANT TO USE ABSORB?!!

 

I play as the dark side, I don't want your light side. I want a good counter against drain. And gues what; there isn't a counter against drain for the dark side. You see, I think heal is good. Drain is also good for healing, but ON TOP of that, it also drains your opponents force pool...

 

Look, when a darky grips me, I push. When they use lightning; I run away. When they rage; I avoid their strikes...

 

When they use drain; I CAN'T DO A DAMN THING!! The range is too freaking long, so my suggestions:

1) reduce range

2) make it use more force

 

Now don't give me the same f*cking tips again, they are of no use. And I know for 95% sure, that NOBODY on this board (with A LOT of members) can give me advice... And that speaks for itself...

[gaeb]

All right, Hertog.

 

So, I see that you have no points in Drain? Which is, incidentally, the easiest counter to Drain. In Dark Side matches, it comes down to who gets the shot and taps Drain first.

 

Then you play a waiting game. You have to get around a corner, wait for him to come after you, then knock him down and kill him. Essentially, because of Drain's range, YOU CANNOT COMPETE ON AN OPEN PLAYING FIELD. So DON'T.

 

Shuttle Bay - tons of areas to hide.

Dueling Pit - platforms, vertical LOS blocks.

Carbon Freeze - tons of places to stay out of LOS

Raven - Hang around the areas with lots of small rooms

Old JK1 Map - Area at the entrance to the fallen tanker. Hardest level.

 

Personally, when a darkie drains me, if I'm close enough I close and kill him. If not, I drain back and run. Then I wait till I can get the first Drain off and drain him, and our situations become reversed.

 

In this, it is CRITICAL that you use the landscape to your advantage. Drain is direct LOS. Don't believe it? Have a buddy stand up on the outer ledges of the Carbon Chamber, and try draining him from the inner platform. The red beams will flicker all over his upper body, but he won't turn red (the sign of being drained) and if he's on the LAN and sitting right next to you, like mine was, you can look over and see that he is completely unaffected. Same if he ducks behind a corner, behind a box, above you in the pit...

 

This is akin to asking "I NEED A COUNTER FOR THE MISSILE LAUNCHER! EVERY TIME I CHARGE A GUY WITH IT HE SHOOTS ME!" ... get around a corner and take it from him when he follows. If you weren't fast enough, work on it.

 

- Gaeb

[Chewie Bakker]

I do agree that the LOOK AT ME! I HAVE ABSORB ON! glow is annoying.

 

After reading the Attack of the Clones Visual Dictionary I've found something interesting:

 

 

The Dark Sides sabers are red because they use artificial crystals that they can charge their dark energy through. A cool Force power would be to do that.

 

 

I really don't have anything against drain or heal, unless they're used repeatedly, and if they're used for the "OMG! I'M ALMOST DEAD!" reason, and use it to gain health, I don't take offense.

 

It's the spammers that annoy me. Use some imagination.

 

 

P.S. It is fairly easy to run backwards when you're trained to, but I think being able to run at the same speed as running forwards is a bit annoying. I think maybe if it was as fast in 1 second bursts it would be better used (e.g. dodging, jumping back from an attack, etc...)

[zufuss]

yea i havent even mention drain vs drain...those fights are just rediculous. The person that drained first and fastest get that little extra force power to pull, push, grip any # of combos and your completely empty.

 

And maybe if raven would release some info on what their planning i wouldn't have to complain..but so long as they keep their mouths shut on what their planning..im keeping mine open and as wide as possible.

 

I also rather like NO force dueling and tdm. and am not to bad at it myself..but thats not the only part of the game, and like to broaden my horizons.

[Nill the Mean]

When people use drain on me I let them.

Get them to use up their force trying to drain you.

Try to PULL them towards you and then KICK them down.

I can pull this off with no probs whatsoever. I will have no force but the other guy willl panic as he is on the floor ready to be killed.

There are so many ways around drain... I'm not even going to bother explaining it again. If you think drain is overpowered then you are obviously not too good at this game.

[Sartis]

No force dueling is fun, but heavy stance tends to really come out in that. Can still get a few hits in with normal but we all know one hit your dead. I dont mind heavy stance at all its just the abusers of it ruin it. Same with anything in any game really.. abusers of a certain power weapon/ability ruin it for all.

[*T¥RANITH*]

Nah, cos spammers of a certain force/style/move are REALLY easy to spot, and if you have any sort of tactical sense you will find a way to use that to your advantage. Ie if people are spamming DFA u just sidestep them and use a long range swing to hit em. Eventually they will either die or use another tactic...

Against drain u just stick force speed on before u go at em and then watch em try to back off as they use drain and run backwards getting hacked to pieces

 

[edit]Oh and as for the guys who use strong stance all the time. Try using medium stance, and sidestep as they come in for a swing and hack em then run off [/edit]

[Guest HertogJan]

Aaaaah... well thanks for the info, it seems there are a couple of silutions for dark masters *ahem* like me *cough*

 

1) Walk away behind cover, slay them in CQB, MWUAHAHAA!!

2) Use drain earlier than they do (personally I hate this solution, it's the only one I knew of and it is against my own policy to spam forcepowers/moves)

3) Pull them before you get drained completely and KICK THEM (I guess slice them works too)..

 

The problem is that drain works so freaking fast, I don't have time to react and pull... And I like levels like carbon and pit... Drain will get you there most of the time...

 

The type of draining I hate most is SPAMMING... In fact, it's the only form of draining I hate... They will drain you empty right from the start of the duel. In this stage, the only counter is drain THEM first and I start hating myself when I do that

 

The problem is that in order to get on the platforms in the pit level, you have to use force jump right? (don't know for sure)... And to kick, you have to use jump to, although I believe the force usage is minimal with kicks...

 

Anywayz, thx for the advice, and happy duelling!

[Caster]

Is that you can never turn absorb on fast enough. Especially when going up against a more ping superior opponent.

 

Other than that, it seems you can;t turn absorb on/off as quickly as you can press the keys either. After you turn off absorb you'be gotta wait a few seconds before you can turn it on again.

 

-Caster

[*T¥RANITH*]

There seems to be a delay between the times between all force powers

Drain has one too, so if u deactivate absorb, he shouldn't be able to use drain till u can use absorb again.

[gaeb]

Yes, the ledges do require force jump to get to... but you can roll off of one and under another in one move.

 

Also, a particularly evil tactic is that the carbon chamber pit requires force jump to get out of. Drain, push them in, Drain/Lightning till death, repeat. Didn't use it more than once because of the cheapness, but it's eeeevil.

 

In general, whoever thinks first, reacts faster, and outguesses their opponent ends up better off... this holds true with force powers and with sabering.

 

- Gaeb

[zufuss]

Like im saying heal in its own way is cheap...but drain has some serious issues that NEED to be addressed. I never once asked for it to be nerfed, or taken out or anything radical like that.

 

But it needs some sorta of balancing, right now the area affect is insanely large, the range is really long, and it drains exceptionally fast...and ping can have a serious affect on this also.

 

It took a page of argueing and flaming but finally theres some constructive criticsm comming forth. Im sure its been talked about before but like i said, Im not shutting up till Raven at least tells us what they have in store for us in the future.

[gaeb]

"I never once asked for it to be nerfed ... But it needs some sorta of balancing, right now the area affect is insanely large, the range is really long, and it drains exceptionally fast...and ping can have a serious affect on this also." So you're asking for it to be nerfed.

 

Ping has always had a serious affect on internet games. 'LPB' mean anything to you, or was it before your time? Generally, if you're up against a LPB who is really good, all you can do is outsmart them, since they have the advantage.

 

As for actually nerfing drain... I could argue both sides. I think drain could use a minor (VERY minor) reduction. But I also think absorb and heal need increased costs. Sight lowered. Etc. Etc. BUT I DON'T WANT TRIBES 2 v.2.0 ! COMPRENDE? So I'm pretty adamantly against 'balancing' a system that works so well for so many of us who actually play it a couple of hours a day and don't find any huge flaws.

 

The real balancing in my eyes remains backward run-speed. Get that fixed and the game changes tremendously. Think about what would happen if you could easily catch that guy running backwards from you draining you. The force powers, right now, are well balanced in my opinion. If you can't deal with drain's range, get out of the way and force him to drain you from close up, where you can make him pay for using a power that leaves him so vulnerable at arms length.

 

- Gaeb

[Tozier]

I've responded to so many threads about people whining about force powers that it's lost all sensation. The force powers are all there for a reason... GET USED TO IT!!!!!!!

 

If you're scared about getting your imaginary force points drained from your polygonal form on a computer screen, then it must be the end of the world because the gam is all that matters. Now I gotta cry to my mommy.... the game pisses me off

 

Get a life!

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------

Quit Whining