Breakin2' Posted April 27, 2002 Author Share Posted April 27, 2002 From what I've heard about Count Dooku, he's a full-fledged master. That would make him an odd apprentice. Even if he was an apprentice, to be a master he'd have to be around during the events of Episode I. That would leave three again, Palpatine, Maul, and Count Dooku. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leagle Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Originally posted by Breakin2' From what I've heard about Count Dooku, he's a full-fledged master. That would make him an odd apprentice. If you put it that way, so are maul and vader -they are called apprentices because they are the junior partner. (Not as in the jedi sense, in which the apprentice is a learner.) Vader and Palpatine were supposed to have a small entourge of dark jedi they had turned, and maybe some force wielders they had trained themselves. About those confused with dooku and tyranus, try not to think about how they can both be apprentices. People can have two titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissamies Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 I think Darth Bane's rule of 2 after battle of Ruusan had 2 purposes: To avoid infighting and to stay hidden from the jedi. Much easier to remain hidden and remain focused on the plans of eventual revenge when there is only master and apprentice. So, technically there would have been less reason to maintain the rule after the jedi were wiped out. I think that the emperor hoped for the best case scenario where he could keep them both, but he also knew about Vader's plans to overthrow him. Also, making Luke to kill his own father in anger was probably the surest way to bring him over to dark side. Luke would probably been easier to control, at least initially, so I can see why emperor would perfer Luke to Vader. As for Vader, of course he had plans to overthrow the emperor. Most darksiders should be out for themselves, unless they are fanatics like Darth Maul. The emperor was probably so powerful that Vader barely dared to think of treason in his precense. (hence the "I MUST obey my master") Also, he didn't let Luke just chop his head off until he made sure that he is turned to the dark side first. Vader alone had already failed to turn Luke, and he might have felt that he needed help in that. This all is speculation, of course, but it makes sense for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebelwerfer_ Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 All this stuff your saying from the comic book series isn't cannonized I hope you know. "If it aint' the movie , then it ain't cannon." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CupO'Coffee Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Originally posted by Nebelwerfer_ All this stuff your saying from the comic book series isn't cannonized I hope you know. "If it aint' the movie , then it ain't cannon." but it was said in the movies, to be precise in episode 1. "always two their are, one master and one apprentice". so it isn't vital for the discussion if darth bane, darth sidious or darth mofo has made the rule, it simply doesn't matter. all that matters for this discussion is that the rule is that there're always two and that luke would be number 3, which is somehow against the rule ps: no offence meant nebel(schein)werfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Draugmahl Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 After Epi 1 there's no longer any reason to debate continuity of anything If C3PO was built by Anakin Skywalker on Tattoine and he was prefectly aware of that, and R2D2 visited that planet during with the queen and her party met Anakin and chilled at the dude's house......fastforward to new hope and C3PO has no idea what planet he's on and neither of the droids found anything mentionable about running into another skywalker on tattooine? As much as 3PO runs his mouth, Luke should have known at least that the he was made by his father about 6 minutes after he took them into the garage and depending on the events that will actually occur, I would assume 3PO will be aware that Anakin became Vader and so the entire course of the movies would be different because Luke in all probability would have known Vader was his father by 45 min into the first flick. At this rate I wouldn't be shocked if Lando is in episode 3 played by Bobcat Goldthwait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leagle Posted April 27, 2002 Share Posted April 27, 2002 Originally posted by Darth Draugmahl If C3PO was built by Anakin Skywalker on Tattoine and he was prefectly aware of that, and R2D2 visited that planet during with the queen and her party met Anakin and chilled at the dude's house......fastforward to new hope and C3PO has no idea what planet he's on and neither of the droids found anything mentionable about running into another skywalker on tattooine? You know what owen said Luke would do "First thing in the morning"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CupO'Coffee Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Originally posted by Darth Draugmahl After Epi 1 there's no longer any reason to debate continuity of anything If C3PO was built by Anakin Skywalker on Tattoine and he was prefectly aware of that, and R2D2 visited that planet during with the queen and her party met Anakin and chilled at the dude's house......fastforward to new hope and C3PO has no idea what planet he's on and neither of the droids found anything mentionable about running into another skywalker on tattooine? As much as 3PO runs his mouth, Luke should have known at least that the he was made by his father about 6 minutes after he took them into the garage and depending on the events that will actually occur, I would assume 3PO will be aware that Anakin became Vader and so the entire course of the movies would be different because Luke in all probability would have known Vader was his father by 45 min into the first flick. come on, if nobody told C3PO and what planet he is how should he know where he is? tattoine consits mainly of sand, sand and even more sand. it could be almost any planet in the universe! (ok not any, but many). what lacked was maybe a remark of 3PO like "this looks somehow familiar" or something, but as he was at luke's home he said "i'm not exactly sure on what planet i am". luke never tells him that his name is "luke skywalker", he said his name was "just luke", thus it's logical that he never mentions that anakin was his builder. ps: leagle is right, owen knows what sh!t is going down and thus he tells luke to flash their memory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissamies Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Heh, as Anakin created C3PO, he could be considered his father. Imagine following discussion taking place: C3PO: Excuse me, master Luke, but something just occurred to me.... I am your brother. Luke: NOOOOOO! Seriously, though, it is not unreasonable to assume that the droids have had a memory wipe or 2 along the way, if you need it spelled out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leagle Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 ...but my point is that they have surely been before, or during their (1st) stint with the rebellion. [had a memory wipe that is] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev'i Haric Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 From what I saw in the movies and read on the official website databank, the Emporer 1st wanted Vader to simply convert Luke. After Vader failed to convert him AND tried to recruit Luke w/ the promise of ruling the galaxy and overthrowing the Emporer, his plans changed. He then wanted to replace Vader w/ Luke. vader never did quite fit in w/ the formalities of the Empire. He had a fondness for killing officers for annoying him. From StarWars.com's Databank: Under Palpatine's (The Emporer's) movie info: "He also concentrated on converting Luke Skywalker to the dark side of the Force, even at the expense of sacrificing Vader." And from Vader's movie info: "He and Luke clashed in a lightsaber duel that Vader won by ruthlessly severing Luke's sword-hand. Vader then revealed to the broken young Jedi that he was his father, and that they would rule the galaxy as father and son. Luke refused to succumb to the dark side, and escaped his father. Vader was left empty-handed. After these incidents, Palpatine reassigned Vader from the Imperial fleet, and instead put him in charge of overseeing the new Death Star operation. The Emperor began to distrust his once loyal servant. Vader's contact with his son sparked something within him, something the Emperor did not like." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quvmoh Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Hello, I'm suprized no one has brought up Vader's thoughts that are portrayed in the books of the Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi. In the books, Vader had plans of killing the Emperor, taking the throne as his own, and taking Luke as his aprentice. Remember Vader's comments to Luke in the movie at Cloud City on the Catwalk? He told Luke that he had the power to destroy the Emperor. In fact, at that moment, Vader reveals his plans to Luke. He was going to use Luke to kill the Emperor, train Luke in the Ways of the Sith, and the two would rule together. Remember the tension between the Emperor and Vader in Return of the Jedi, and how the Emperor wasn't able to read Vader's thoughts clearly, or able to sense Luke on the Shuttle? That's because, in the Books, Vader was shielding Luke and himself from the Emperor, and getting ready to make his move on the Emperor. Also, Luke had made an impact upon Vader, and as a result Vader implimented his plans not to rule the Empire, but to save his son. As a reult, He was redeemed. Also, in the Books, Vader knew about Yoda, but didn't reveal that to the Emperor. Vader was also proud of Luke, and Yoda's ability to train Luke. The Books of the Trilogy reveal a lot about Vader, and what he felt. Quvmoh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leagle Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Luke did spark something in Vader, Palpatine never stood a chance. A lot of people still say that Qui-Gon was wrong about him being "the chosen one", and that he was a generation too early. That is wrong, Vader single-handedly wiped the Sith out, (Exar-Kun doesn't count, he's dead) with Palpatine gone he revoked his sith ways. (Unfortunately dying right after, but hey, you can't do everything, right?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CupO'Coffee Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 what i find a bit disturbing in the whole "he is the chosen one" thing is that it was said that the chosen one would bring balance to the force. but think about it: the bad guys (vader, sidious) are gone, luke is the last force wielder (if it's said otherwise in the books, ignore, i'm talking canon here). where's the balance when there's only one side left? luke is a good guy, ok 1 point for the good guys. but where is his counterpart, the bad guy that would make the balance complete? strange, strange... is there maybe still one bad guy on the road? or was by the "he will bring balance" thing just meant that vader would kill sidious. then the balance would last for about 10 minutes before vader dies and luke is the last force wielder left (a good force wielder with no evil counterpart). but even that can't be true, since luke was a good guy and vader (after killing sidious) wasn't 100% evil anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leagle Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 So Anakin destroys the Sith, a most potent evil. Unfortunately something went wrong and he wiped out the Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CupO'Coffee Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 i think it was "planed" by the greater force that he would destroy all jedis. on second thought, anakin indeed fulfiled the will of the force. not by destroying sidious and himself, but by destroying all the jedis. after destroying all jedis, there we're only 2 good and 2 evil force wielders. obi-wan and yoda for the light side, sidious and vader for the dark side. thus, anakin already fulfiled his given destiny before episode 4, 5 and 6 which is most likely the reason why nobody mentions anakins destiny in these episodes anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissamies Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Yes, wiping out the jedi. I thought that the "Bring balance to the Force" prophecy was likely to mean that too. The jedi had been running the show for thousands of years after all, and that could be intepreted as a major inbalance in the Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leagle Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 The Star Wars universe has more than its fair shair of scumbags and evil people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obijonkenobi Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 The answer will most likely be found out in Episode 3... or Maybe Episode 2... But I am thinking the third installment will explain what is ment by this infamous balance of the force once and for all. So until then we must all be open minded about all the theories. But it might turn out we were all wrong! (Lucas might be reading this and writing down the things we said, so he can say its something else to screw us over! Lucas is a real life Sith! mwuahahahaha) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leagle Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Or he might be looking for a conveniant explanation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CupO'Coffee Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 i don't think that lucas meant with "balance in the force" the evil in the galaxy, i think he meant the evil/good force wielders. this sounds convincing to me since jedis sense no "disturbance" around "normal" persons. thus the balance between good and evil force can only be altered be force wielders such as jedis/dark jedis/siths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpanRah Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 i havent read the entire thread, jsut enough to get the jist, so some1 may fo said this before... In the book Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, it explains that since the Great Sith War only 2 Siths have existed at any time, the master and the apprentice. Also according to this book, the sith were unknown completly to the council until just before the Naboo blockade... Sorry if this is a repeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 The Emperor's Dark power brings inbalance to the Force, when Darth Vader kills the Emperor, he balances the Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalas Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 To clear up some of the above (I got fed up with reading so I posted this) There are ONLY ever 2 Sith at any One time. Dooku is not a Sith, he was a Jedi, and became a dark jedi. Sith IS different to a Dark Jedi Sidious is not the emp, he was in ep1 and so was sidious, they are different people. the emp wanted Luke to kill vader to take his place at his side. Vader had to protect his master, even if he did want Luke to win. | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Sidious is not the emp, he was in ep1 and so was sidious, they are different people. Uhmmm...did you notice that they had remarkably similar voices?... and that Sidious had a suprising amount of control in the Senate "I will make it legal." But hey, don't worry about it, did you know OJ was framed?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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