NewBJedi Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Do you think they are more religious? The force, good vs. evil, etc. I prefer Star Trek - I'm an atheist. Many of my friends prefer Star Wars - they are Christian. Just looking for a pattern - not saying one is right or wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev'i Haric Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 I'm a life-long SW fan, but I'm not too crazy about ST. If there's nothing on TV I'll watch an old-skool ST rerun, but I'd probably be more entertained scouring the web for SW gossip. Don't get me wrong, Shatner's the man, but Lando could out-pimp him in any galaxy. I wouldn't say religion plays into as much as spirituality or mysticism. I'm something of an agnostic/existentialist and I definately don't read any Christian themes into SW. I would say "the Force" and "lightside-vrs-darkside" is more how I'd like the world to work. But I'm jaded enough to understand that any Jedi battles that take place in this world are internal. I think the Jedi are a great allegory to the human experience. We can inflict great harm or do great good to the world around us. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenchu Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 I happen to enjoy both. As to the religious aspect of Star Wars, that went out the window with Episode 1 when Lucas decided the Force was some sort of parasite that had the effect of enhancing the senses; sort of like a cootie you can catch and not a religious belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanubis Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 As to the religious aspect of Star Wars, that went out the window with Episode 1 when Lucas decided the Force was some sort of parasite that had the effect of enhancing the senses; sort of like a cootie you can catch and not a religious belief. Maybe Lucas did that on purpose to seperate it from religion. I don't know much about Christianity in America, but aren't there some (less cosmopolitan) areas where it is kind of fanatical? Either way, I would have thought that the Force as a mystical thing would be more offensive to fundamentalist Christians than the science approach of ST, because it suggests a mystic force other than God. However, the less fundamentalist demoninations would, I guess, be attracted to the good-versus-evil mythos of Star Wars, and be more willing to accept the symbolism of it. Having said that, I think you got the wrong idea about those midi-things. I think they're attracted to the force and are therefore found in higher quantities where the force is strong. Like flies are found in higher numbers near someone who stinks. (Best example I counld think of. sorry.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Forceflow Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Yeah, I didn't like all this 'Midichlorian' stuff. I like the original explanation of some connection between everything a lot better. Mystery is what made SW so great. The need not to explain everything. I always found this so great in the SW universe. I do like the ST way, too, but ST just always took a completely differnet approach that simply wouldn't fit SW I think... Let's hope GL doesn't keep going that path... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenchu Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Interesting analogy, indeed! I never considered the Force as a Christian anlogue, I think the religion or ethos that most closely resembles it is the Bushido code of Japanese Samurai. I still maintain that the more mystical elements of the Force have been eliminated. I choose to ignore the existence of the mid-whatevers, but thats just me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OOO Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 I enjoy both star wars and star trek. I do enjoy Star Wars more then Star Trek however. This is less from me being an atheist and more from star fleet being a bunch of socialists utopians. OOO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPY_jmr1 Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 I like the original explanation of some connection between everything a lot better. but you have to remember that its obi-wan telling luke then. most of the things said in that hovel were incorect as we found out later. whats not to say that the jedi order had a division over the force? much like..... hmm. religon. imagine that. ps. i am not talking about jedi vs sith, but intra-jedi order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_FinnSon Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Okey, Star Trek is a "pure" science fiction(at least it tries to be), but Star Wars IS a fantasy story that uses science fiction imagery; if you however try to watch it as a scifi movie, there's simply too many problems when it comes to real life science, but as a modern day myth it gives much more freedom. You can see this simply by watching even one episode of ST(pick original series, NG, DS9, Voyager or even Enterprise) and you will notice that whatever problem the crew encounters, they will find a solution to that through science(we have this energy field we use to do this and that, find their shield frequency, etc.), but in Star Wars they rarely use any hightech machinery or scientist to come up a solution, but instead their surviving will ultimately depend on their trust in themselves and to the Force(use the Force, Luke). Maybe someone can see this as a simple science versus religion, but it only makes the battle more interesting. What is bugging me today with ST(I used to watch original series and movies) is that it seems to continue forever and there's no idea where they are heading for and why. They just say we are searching for new worlds and so, we don't know what we want to say(of course there are little lessons here and there with every episode, but there's no big idea binding them all together). What comes to Star Wars though, Lucas has said that six episodes is enough and together they tell the story of rise and fall of the Empire through the eyes of Skywalker family and their friends & enemies. I think that is long enough as an epic story of war & love, friendship, betrayal and so on; all of these very essential aspects of human life through ages. Also, I personally don't think midi-chlorians take too much away from the mystical aspect of the Force. Lucas said in the commentary track of TPM that it was something he meant to tell earlier, but didn't get any chance to do so as it has been part of the story from the beginning. You can check out this page for more interesting information and theories about midi-chlorians that could actually be a loose depiction of mitochondria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted April 28, 2002 Share Posted April 28, 2002 Yeah, I didn't like all this 'Midichlorian' stuff. I like the original explanation of some connection between everything a lot better They didn't change the explanation. The added to it, a Jedi CONNECTS to the Force because of midichlorians, but it doesn't change what the Force is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBJedi Posted April 28, 2002 Author Share Posted April 28, 2002 Originally posted by OOO I enjoy both star wars and star trek. I do enjoy Star Wars more then Star Trek however. This is less from me being an atheist and more from star fleet being a bunch of socialists utopians. OOO Interesting, with holodecks, replicators, super advanced medicine, and warp drive - how can it remain capitalist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Legolas Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 Originally posted by Vestril They didn't change the explanation. The added to it, a Jedi CONNECTS to the Force because of midichlorians, but it doesn't change what the Force is. This here Geyser has hit it the nail right on the head. Midchlorians are NOT the Force, but are what lets us use the Force. The reason we can use the force is explained. But the Force itself is still as big a mystery as it ever was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 This here Geyser has hit it the nail right on the head. Midchlorians are NOT the Force, but are what lets us use the Force. The reason we can use the force is explained. But the Force itself is still as big a mystery as it ever was. So YOU'RE the one who stole the correct way of expressing my thoughts on the matter right out of my head!!! Bastard!! Hee hee, thanks Legolas, I couldn't have said it better myself, in fact I didn't say it better!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Legolas Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 Great minds think alike no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Monk Posted April 29, 2002 Share Posted April 29, 2002 I'm Christian and a huge SW fan, and I have noticed a kind of weird devision between religious and athietic people in an SW community. I used to run a SW fan club on AOL (over 400 receiving our monthly newsletter and 30+ actively attending our live events and posting on our boards), and we had a rather large cross-section of Americans. After Episode I premiered, we'd get into discussions about the religiosity of the Jedi on the boards. Basically every Christian who replied to the debate agreed with me that the Jedi Order is a religion, while the atheists who joined the debate said that the Jedi Order was not a religion. No matter how hard you fought (The Jedi Temple, the Jedi code of ethics, the Jedi's belief in the conscious will of the Force and their belief in an afterlife if you followed the propper path... the very fact that Lucas himself stated that the Force was religion distilled) they would always battle against you. They refused to accept a religion dominating Star Wars. Anyway, Lucas said that the Force is like Religion distilled. It has a God-like element, but also a sort of Buddhist leaning, too. It's a mixture of world religions. Star Wars does have many Christian themes, Redemption being among the strongest. As for the Great Midichlorian debate... I have two views, each equally acceptable to me. The first is very much like what Kanubis said; they're life forms that are attracted to high levels of the Force, therefore they are found in higher quantities in prospective Jedi; it is a fallacy that they really have anything to do with the way a Jedi uses the Force, but it is a popular theory among the more scientifically-minded Jedi. The other is that the midichlorians, being life forms, generate the Force like every other life form. Since the midichliorians are already inside of the Jedi, the life Force that they generate becomes intermingled with the life Force of the Jedi, therfore creating a kind of Super-Aura that opens the person up to so much of the Force that they become more aware of the Force. Still, either way, it doesn't change what the Force is. It's a mystical energy Force that is conscious and has a will. Jedi who obey the Code will join with it in a kind of nirvana/paradise of eternal life. Those who do not follow the Code, but use the Force for evil will be annhilated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Legolas Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 In either case the facts are: the force is still a mystery - midiclorans are NOT the force and therefore explaining about them - no matter what they do - will ruin the mystique of the force. religious or not - - Starwars and Jedi alike are awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBJedi Posted April 30, 2002 Author Share Posted April 30, 2002 As an atheist I see the force as a religion. Religion and the force are fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 I think the issue most Atheists would take offense at is the God element, because they have a typified view of God as an onld man sitting on a throne looking down on us. I really don't see it that way, personally, I think the concept of God should be shifted or a different word should be used, I persoannly believe that there is more to life than we see, but I find it unlikely that it is in the form of an old man sitting on a throne. I think a Star Wars 'Force' makes more sense to me, where 'God' is just another part of the Universe, and not above and beyond it...anyway I'll stop now before I let myself REALLY get started, I could debate religion for a long time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev'i Haric Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 I disagree w/ what was stated earlier - the Jedi are not a religion. At least in the literay definition of the word like "I am a Jedi. I go to Jedi church." As opposed to the "Star Wars is my religion, man!" sense of the word. (This prob. applies a lot around here...) Religions are based on the worship and teachings of dieties. Jedi are a small group of specialized warriors not a Bible study group. I would say Jedi are more like a combination of the samuri's Bushido code and very elite forms of martial arts like the Shaolin monks. From a military aspect, I would relate them to special forces like Delta, Rangers, SEALs, PJs, etc, These orders have core doctrines of beliefs and very rigid rules of behavior. They have almost sacred singular missions - "Leave no man behind" or "So that others may live". From an outsiders perspective, these organizations might seem to be some sort of cult. But in reality, their missions are so dangerous and so specific, they have to adhere to strict guidelines. Being in the military myself, I can see how it could almost be the same as a religion - you live and breathe this stuff 24/7. But in the end, it's a commitment to an ideal not a diety. Luke was a Jedi. Did you see him doing anything remotely religious? People can not belong to a religion and do religious-esque activities. Like meditation or strict social beliefs. I for instance am straight-edge. I don't, nor have ever, drank, smoke, or done drugs. I don't do this out of any religious belief, but out of my own desire to better myself. Just like a mutha-!$@#$ Jedi. Dig it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted April 30, 2002 Share Posted April 30, 2002 You are miscategorizing religion, Kev'i Haric. The Jedi believe in something beyond them, an energy field that binds everything together, this is a very religious concept. Meditating to find inner peace, to get in touch with the 'Force' is also a very religious concepot, it just isn't a very Western religious concept. If you want proof that this is a halfway decent theory look at the movies...the Jedi 'Temple', one of the Bad guys in ANH saying 'your sad devotion to that dying religion' or something like that. Han refering to it as a 'hokey religion' these are all hints that it is extremely religious. It does not require that the Jedi worship some all powerful deity, but rather that they devote themselves to that which gives us life. Religions are based on the worship and teachings of dieties. Jedi are a small group of specialized warriors not a Bible study group. Because of heavy handed religious people some, like you (I'm guessing, I apologize if I'm wrong) feel that religion is a stupid idea, because they see it as only one thing. All it takes to be a religion is for a group of people to take a leap of faith and believe in something greater than themselves, and this is the very essence of the Jedi, else why would they be willing to devote themselves to the code? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Monk Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 Here's a quote from George Lucas that I found in my Episode I scrapbook: "The Force evolved out of various developments of character and plot. I wanted a concept of religion based on the premise that there is a God and there is good and evil. I began to distill the essence of all religions into what I thought was a basic idea common to all religions and common to primative thinking. I wanted to develop something that was nondenominational but still had a kind of religious reality. I believe in God and I believe in right and wrong. I also believe that there are basic tenents which through history have developed into certainties, such as "thou shalt not kill." I don't want to hurt people. "Do unto others..." is the philosophy that permeates my work." The Jedi live in a Temple, they practice a strict moral code based on certainties such as those Lucas himself quoted. These moral codes are further given weight by the fact that if a Jedi follows them, he will gain eternal life through the Force--Jedi believe in an afterlife and work toward attaining it zealously. Jedi practice ritual cremation in immitation of when a Jedi becomes one with the Force. Jedi believe that the Force has a Will, meaning it is sentient and therfore a type of divinity. All these things point to the Jedi Order as being a religion. They use their special powers to defend the weak, and to safeguard peace, it is true--but that is the Will of the Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Tim Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 From what I understand, based on reading articles, interviews etc: the Force and the Jedi thing are meant to be 'religious'. I've heard that they have a number of simialrities to hindu (in particular) stories/myths. I guess this is where the comment abou it being 'all religions' comes from. Star Trek was deliberatley designed as a vehicle for Gene Roddenberry to express his humanist beliefs. Anyway, I'm a Christian and I much prefer Star Wars - but I think this is due to deveral factors, including the fact that I grew up on it, and that I'm not into over-use of technobabble (what new word can we invent this week to get us out of some situation). On the other hand, I have a number of Christian friends who are hardcore Trekkies - probably as many as there are hardcore SW fans from among my Christian friends. And separately - my other favourite Sci-fi series was Babylon 5 - which is written by an atheist and in no way reflects religion. But, it has such a great plot and character devlopment and is generally much better than every sci-fi series I've come across (apart from SW). I guess the overall point is - in my opinion it's not so much religion that counts in what series people prefer, but whether you like a good story (SW, etc) or technobabble/hardcore sci-fi (ST). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamikaze_Elite Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 I think that there is a line between theology and philosophy, although they are similar is many respects. The focus of theology is much different than philosophy. Both are looking for wisdom (philosophy=love of wisdom) and truth. However, while philosophy assumes no truth, no right or wrong, theology assumes many things. Theology assumes that there is a God or gods, and in most cases, has defined right and wrong. Theology looks for the way to God, and defines the religion. Religion is the adherence to God and His law, and the service to God. The god of philosophers is wisdom. Philosophers hope to attain wisdom through reason and contemplation. Religious people hope to reach God through obedience. Although the gods are different, they are both searching for something true and bigger than themselves. I this way, philosophy can be likened to a religion. The Jedi Knights in Star Wars remind me of (like some mentioned) the Samurai. This is not just because the are elite warriors. The Samuria practiced Zen Budhism. This stressed concentration on the moment, and deep meditation. In many ways, the Jedi Masters remind me of Budhist monks. The scenes in Ep5 when Yoda is talking about concentration and meditation also looked suspisiously like Budhist practices. As you can tell, I see Budhism as a big influece on Star Wars. However, in Ep1 I have noticed alot of Christian influence. I'm refering to Anakin being "birthed" by the force and "there was no father." This remind me of the virgin birth of Christ. Also, what about the prophecies? Wasn't Christ the Messiah? Didn't He fullfill prophecies? To me, Anakin seems to paralel Christ. Obviously, this changes in Ep2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev'i Haric Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 I again state that someone can follow a strict moral code, believe in an after-life, and not be religious. I'm not religious and I do all these things. Also, a Jedi temple doesn't prove anything. A temple can be defined as a "lodging of a fraternal order" or a "place devoted to a special purpose". A temple doesn't have to be a place of religious worship. Anyways, I don't think we've seen enough in the movies to be sure if it is a true religion or not. The references to it being a dying and hokey religion could be using the term "religion" as an insult. Taking the complex Jedi code and distilling it down to a cult. From what I've seen in the movies, it appears as though different Jedi approach the Force in different ways. Yoda in a Eastern way (Buddist as mentioned by Kam). Qui Gon in a scientifitc way (metachlorians). Then there's the Christian "virgin birth" of Anakin notation... I haven't seen any sort of strict dogma to the Jedi. There are basic principles they follow, but no one has produced a set of commandments. If it was a religion, I don't think they would be so independent in their teachings. From what I've seen in teasers for Ep2, I think we'll get more of this answered. I read somewhere that there's a scene where we see Yoda instructing young children in basic lightsaber usage. In fact, there was a teaser photo of a bunch of like ten-year-olds in Jedi robes on the official web-site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 re·li·gion Pronunciation Key (r-ljn) n. 1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. 2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. Under definition 1 the Jedi are a pseudo religion (the Force is at least the govenor of the Universe, as defined by the Jedi) Under definition 2 the Jedi are a religion (they clearly have an institutionalized belief structure, the various Jedi examples and religions Kev'i listed only strengthen the concept that the Jedi are a unified religion) Definition 3 is talking about the life and doesn't define A religion but religion in general Under definition 4 the Jedi may or may not be a religion, we know nothing of their origins. Under definition 5, the Jedi are solidly a religion, I could see you disagreeing with the categorization of the Jedi as a religion under the other definitions, but 5 is the point I was getting at earlier. As you can see the Jedi ARE a religion, and actually you are in a religion as well, although it may be a religion of 1 The trouble is the baggage the word religion carries with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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