jasho Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Hi guys! I heard somewhere (can't disclose source..sorry), that California wants to or have passed a law/bill/whatever stating that if software companies state a patch date and info on what they are going to patch, they have to deliver it on time and in full or else they can get sued. I am not totally sure if this is correct so I am wondering if any of you guys have heard anything about it. I can see why this was a good idea, however something that people forgot is that this will now give software companies a legit reason for not stating or disclosing patch date and information or at least very minimal information. Again, please don't flame but I just wanted some confirmation to see if this is really the case. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverWalker Posted May 4, 2002 Share Posted May 4, 2002 that wouldn't be a very sensical law.... all it would do is make it so there is never any official word on when a patch is coming out, or what it would fix, and that would be dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmer Ghost Posted May 4, 2002 Share Posted May 4, 2002 Why shouldn't software companies be held to some sort of standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverWalker Posted May 4, 2002 Share Posted May 4, 2002 like what? standards that are workable for a company that produces a THING of some sort, frequently don't work when applied to software, "why is this product fix delayed so long?" (machinist) our mill broke down and we had to send for a new one. or "our initial plan to repair the problem ended up causing a stress in x place, and would not have solved anything, the new solution should be in production in x time" where with software,... "why is the patch taking so long to release?" programmer: "because we can't find the source of the bug, since you pushed us to finish so stinking fast, some parts of the code are chatotic, and we haven't a clue how long it will take to find and fix it" and ALL those responses be 100% honest. or more laughably, producer: "why haven't you gotten this game balanced yet?!" programmer: "well, as far as we are concerned we have." producer: "then why are so many people still complaining about problems with balance?" programmer: "because for one reason or another they are not able to win as much as others, be it lack of skill, a lower grade computer, whatever, they want to win, and since it IS balanced, their play style or whatnot doesn't have them win..." producer: *interrupting* "bah, I don't care, just get the dang game balanced by the end of next week." do you put that kind of exchange past the people running these things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmer Ghost Posted May 5, 2002 Share Posted May 5, 2002 So game software is so different, so exotic a commodity that there can't be any sort of policies or procedures? Come on. Even massive undertakenings like OS's and database software can be produced and managed on a timetable. The problem is that the yuck-it-up, "we're rebels" mentality at so many game companies will have to change if they want some respect and credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracofyre Posted May 5, 2002 Share Posted May 5, 2002 Maybe if game companies made games that worked fine in the first place, then maybe they wouldn't need to make patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverWalker Posted May 5, 2002 Share Posted May 5, 2002 might I point out that database software, and operating systems are much more structured of programming, and it would be far closer to being possible to come up with all feasable variants for a particular space in the program, than for a game? and remember that most of the time it's not the developers who put it out early, it's the publishers who yank it out of the developers hands before they say it's finished. Tribes2 for example, the developers wanted to spend another month adjusting things, but were overruled. there could be some procedures and all for gaming software development, but it shouldn't involve laws or legal types, they don't know what is going on with it enough to make appropritate rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmer Ghost Posted May 6, 2002 Share Posted May 6, 2002 Originally posted by RiverWalker might I point out that database software, and operating systems are much more structured of programming, and it would be far closer to being possible to come up with all feasable variants for a particular space in the program, than for a game? and remember that most of the time it's not the developers who put it out early, it's the publishers who yank it out of the developers hands before they say it's finished. Tribes2 for example, the developers wanted to spend another month adjusting things, but were overruled. there could be some procedures and all for gaming software development, but it shouldn't involve laws or legal types, they don't know what is going on with it enough to make appropritate rules. Are you saying that in these days of bolt-in graphics engines, that game coding doesn't use structured programming? Yes, publishers get tired of waiting because they're in it for the money. When coding houses start looking at it the same way, things will be a lot better for gamers. Legal types wouldn't have to get involved if so many people weren't treated like asses by the people they buy games from. It should be possible to ask a question of a company you bought a product from an get a timely response. Near as I can tell, companies like Sierra are building higher and higher walls between them and the people who pay their salaries. If this is the way it's going to be, them let the government get involved. They sure aren't listening to us. Also, before I forget, let me mention the third party in all of this. Us, the gaming community. We should be responsible in keeping our knowledge, OS's, hardware and drivers up to date. I've read some posts, here and elsewhere, that indicate that some of us don't have the slightest notion of how to maintain a computer. People, if you want to play bleeding-edge games spend the time and money to keep your platform solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmer Ghost Posted May 6, 2002 Share Posted May 6, 2002 Originally posted by Dracofyre Maybe if game companies made games that worked fine in the first place, then maybe they wouldn't need to make patches. Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverWalker Posted May 6, 2002 Share Posted May 6, 2002 structured, yes, but it's a different world, in a database, you could say, ok, if he does this, while this is set to that, and this is here, thats there, then it should do this, :test: and it works, or it doesn't work, you fix it, move onto the next test case. games... person a jumps from coordinates xy in a direction of z degrees, using force jump level 3, holding the jump button for exactly t.tt seconds, while g seconds after jump person b does a force pull of level 3 while aiming at person a's torso, with force points of F, person A should land on the edge... so on, you can't test ALL the potentials, and any one of millions of combinations could cause some bizare glitch, personally I don't want programmers who are in it for the money, I want programmers who are in it for the sake of the game, and publishers who have the same mindset, or trust the programmers enough to wait as long as it takes. and I agree, publishers are not as nice to their clientel as they should be, and thats definitely a problem. "We should be responsible in keeping our knowledge, OS's, hardware and drivers up to date." AMEN AMEN AMEN!!! I have seen some of the same things here, and other places... "uhh, I gotta "GenuIntel 266mhz processor, 32mb ram, and a 2mb ATI something or another video card, and I haven't ever done any driver updates or nuthin, can I play Tribes 2? " (and only slightly exaggerating on a question I heard once) and no offense to those with weird systems on here, but I gotta say that I've heard some of the most disjointed system configurations on this board that I ever imagined... voodoo 3's in Ghz+ machines, computers under 800Mhz runing WindowsXP... and people don't seem to understand system balance, in components.... /rant back as I was agreeing, yes, very much so, it's stupid and agravating when people expect leading edge games to work on 7 year old, badly maintenanced computers, and act like it's some horrible burden on them to maintain their machine (drivers, proper configurations, a defrag once evey so often, all that) in order for it to play a leading edge game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 6, 2002 Share Posted May 6, 2002 just say a law was passed in l.a. concerning patches... why should that affect the rest of the world? and vica versa if a company released an official line on a patch couldn't they say that it was for consumers in countries outside america and therefore american law should have no standing? if the american government did that and the companies agreed to it i think it would be wise in the interests of consumers outside of the u.s. to no longer buy american products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverWalker Posted May 6, 2002 Share Posted May 6, 2002 one potential issue of it, is that at very least I know the EULAs from Blizzard, (read it through to argue with some people about D2 and B.net) that they follow laws for some things according to the californa laws, if you sue them, it has to be IN california, I don't know all that much about interstate legal crap, but it sounds potentially troublesome to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmer Ghost Posted May 6, 2002 Share Posted May 6, 2002 Originally posted by RiverWalker structured, yes, but it's a different world, in a database, you could say, ok, if he does this, while this is set to that, and this is here, thats there, then it should do this, :test: and it works, or it doesn't work, you fix it, move onto the next test case. games... person a jumps from coordinates xy in a direction of z degrees, using force jump level 3, holding the jump button for exactly t.tt seconds, while g seconds after jump person b does a force pull of level 3 while aiming at person a's torso, with force points of F, person A should land on the edge... so on, you can't test ALL the potentials, and any one of millions of combinations could cause some bizare glitch, personally I don't want programmers who are in it for the money, I want programmers who are in it for the sake of the game, and publishers who have the same mindset, or trust the programmers enough to wait as long as it takes. and I agree, publishers are not as nice to their clientel as they should be, and thats definitely a problem. "We should be responsible in keeping our knowledge, OS's, hardware and drivers up to date." AMEN AMEN AMEN!!! I have seen some of the same things here, and other places... "uhh, I gotta "GenuIntel 266mhz processor, 32mb ram, and a 2mb ATI something or another video card, and I haven't ever done any driver updates or nuthin, can I play Tribes 2? " (and only slightly exaggerating on a question I heard once) and no offense to those with weird systems on here, but I gotta say that I've heard some of the most disjointed system configurations on this board that I ever imagined... voodoo 3's in Ghz+ machines, computers under 800Mhz runing WindowsXP... and people don't seem to understand system balance, in components.... /rant back as I was agreeing, yes, very much so, it's stupid and agravating when people expect leading edge games to work on 7 year old, badly maintenanced computers, and act like it's some horrible burden on them to maintain their machine (drivers, proper configurations, a defrag once evey so often, all that) in order for it to play a leading edge game. We seem to agree on quite a bit RW. That's a rare thing in forums like this. However, modern enterprise databases are a lot more complex than games. Also, it's not like we're reinventing the wheel here. FPS's have been around for some time now. If a games programmer isn't in it for the money, he must be insane or a communist. Profit motive drives most of the world. Trying to get rich, or at least comfortable, brings about all kinds of innovation, and that's fine by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmer Ghost Posted May 6, 2002 Share Posted May 6, 2002 Originally posted by RiverWalker one potential issue of it, is that at very least I know the EULAs from Blizzard, (read it through to argue with some people about D2 and B.net) that they follow laws for some things according to the californa laws, if you sue them, it has to be IN california, I don't know all that much about interstate legal crap, but it sounds potentially troublesome to me. Also, statutes tend to propogate outwards from California. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disenter Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 have to agree totally with the fact that alot of people seemingly in forums such as this, probably hardly know how to wipe there own arse, let alone keep a tight sys also it'd be nice if programmers had the time to test the infinite variables that a complex 3d realm type game produces, an then factor in the fairly large variables produced by different combinations of hardware.... i do believe a program should be fully tested before its released, they shouldnt need patches after that, but in reality, realistically, thats just not profitable, nor practical. Who would want to wait years an years for a game they heard about, that sounded so awesome they had to have it?.. by the time it came out, something better would probably have already beat it out... always a race... glad im not a programmer, ill stick to OS's, networking and security, and SOMEHOW get time for a game here an there... (when it decides to work!) hehe.. lots of good idea's among you all though, aside from the deadheads hehe.. long live 3dfx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverWalker Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 what should theoretically be possible, is to code it so you don't NEED to do infinite bugtesting, by having solid code to start with. steps toward this? a major publisher *cough*Vivendi*cough* (or the like) "shares a bed with" nVidia, Via, AMD, and Creative. and arranges to have a set of drivers made for the primary products that are as close to perfect as possible, each component's drivers clean, and solid, and written well. then you do PROPER coding, for smaller subroutines that individually CAN be tested for every single possible combination, DO SO! every subroutine, every time, if the bigger programs are running bugless subroutines, combined with regular beta testing, on a standardized, perfected driver base, then there is no reason there would have to be game fix patches, only balance and suchlike patches, 3DFx is gone and buried, move on, and succumb to the almighty GeForce! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yrean Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 ok...so let me interpret what your saying.,... HEY EVERYONE...go buy new sh*t becasue there gonna make the games for these new perfect chip sets and nuthing will be backward compatible.... get real...there are an unfathomable amount of machine configs out there and manufactures.....if a software company tried making software like that theyd be out of busineess after the first program...and no the BIG SOFTWARE companies DO make mistakes... otherwise what do you call that massive section that they call SUPPORT....,,..... the programmers like I who are reading this no that nothing will be perfect to run for everyone and there will be updates released after it is released to the public...so lets not be diluted with wild fantasies of the perfect world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmer Ghost Posted May 7, 2002 Share Posted May 7, 2002 Originally posted by yrean ok...so let me interpret what your saying.,... HEY EVERYONE...go buy new sh*t becasue there gonna make the games for these new perfect chip sets and nuthing will be backward compatible.... get real...there are an unfathomable amount of machine configs out there and manufactures.....if a software company tried making software like that theyd be out of busineess after the first program...and no the BIG SOFTWARE companies DO make mistakes... otherwise what do you call that massive section that they call SUPPORT....,,..... the programmers like I who are reading this no that nothing will be perfect to run for everyone and there will be updates released after it is released to the public...so lets not be diluted with wild fantasies of the perfect world. I agree. How far back should a software company go when seeking compability then? Separate installs for anything going back to the 8088? If development takes a long time NOW, imagine what it would be then. When the box says IBM compatible, it falls on the buyer to meet those standards. If I can do it, anyone can with a bit of effort. If the buyer can't approach that broad standard, and buys the game anyway, then they deserve what they get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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