Details About Some Patch Changes

[WD_Rage]

Kuroshi, that's not the reason at all. We're mad that Raven changed our aspect of the game due to newbs playing sabers on a gun server. CTF has been neutered. No one can effectively execute their jobs. With the HR, we now only have a maximum of 12 shots. If we can't get to an ammo pack, we're left with a default of 4 shots. How can we properly defend our flag if we're constantly running for ammo. Someone with default health/sheilds takes 3 direct hits to kill. That leaves 1 shot left for any other attackers.

 

We're not going away anytime soon. Many of the leagues are sticking with 1.02 as the platform for ladders and tourneys.

 

Raven just made some idioitic mistakes, which they should rectify.

[NielsN]

@ChangKhan[RAVEN]

 

Hey, on 04-05-2002 I told you: a lot of our readers and myself want the dead bodies keeping on the ground. Is there anything we can do?

 

And you answered: Unfortunately, no, not at this time. But if we do a patch, I will be certain to include a console variable that makes the bodies stay forever...

 

The patch is released -- what is the "console variable" ?

 

Niels

[DarthNoodles]

Originally posted by WD_Rage

No, the new patch will not be run on TWL servers, and I imagine other leagues will do the same thing.

 

That's rather stubborn of you. I guess you'd rather be stuck with DFA spammers and drainwhores than adapt. You've just exlcuded youself from every patch in the future, unless they revert some changes which I doubt they will do. You'll also have to tolerate work arounds for the exploits (arm models) instead of enjoying all the models.

 

The new patch stifles competitive play.

 

BTW the patch is going to do the exact opposite of stifle sompetitive play. It's going to make play MORE competitive. The spammers newbies will be forced to become BETTER players and if they don't they'll likely quit playing because they'll suck. Either way it means the ratio of good players out there will increase. How does THAT stifle competitive play?

 

You can get used to it all you want, but defending your base or flag and controlling the middle area during a match are almost impossible now. Competitive play is nixed with this patch.

 

How is this a problem? So you have a herder time defending the middle and your base, but so will your opponent. So look at it this way...It will be easier to get the flag and get it back. How is that nixing competitive play?

 

I have seen very few (probably none actually) arguments against this patch that are valid concerns for the gameplay.

 

Learn to accept change, it's a rather constant thing in life. You'll simply become a better, more diverse player if you can learn to adapt to new surroundings, evironments and game play styles.

 

DarthNoodles out...

[dansolo]

Originally posted by WD_Rage

Raven just made some idioitic mistakes, which they should rectify.

 

What a pile of shiat.

 

Raven is balancing the gameplay and all you whiners can talk about is how YOU WOULD DO IT BETTER

 

Let me share something with you. They know what they are doing. They are a reputable game developer. Just let them do their job and if you don't like it then send them an email or GO AWAY.

 

I'll see the real players online...

[Spider AL]

I find this absolutely hilarious. The people who were whining about how the sabres were "weak" and the guns overpowered before the patch are now the ones telling the gunners to "stop whining." and to "adapt." This is exactly what everyone was telling you sabreists before the patch, and you didn't listen then, so don't pull it out now.

 

You're hypocrites.

 

And some advice for Gunners, get working on learning how to conserve ammo more efficiently, or just don't use the patch eh, you're starting to sound like a bunch of sabreists.

 

Personally, as I always said, I don't really care about any of the changes in the patch. It hasn't affected me one bit, because whatever the game is like, I will adapt to it. I'd advise all of you to do the same.

[Kuroshi]

Originally posted by WD_Rage

Kuroshi, that's not the reason at all. We're mad that Raven changed our aspect of the game due to newbs playing sabers on a gun server. CTF has been neutered. No one can effectively execute their jobs.

 

I'm sure you realize that if the other side prefers your style they will have the exact same problems. I know you liked your style of play, but if the patch changes game mechanics that's just the way things are. You fall back on the excuse that people that are new to the game are the problem, which is wrong. That is never the problem, and you know it.

 

If you don't like the new patch, you can always play the old version, which I am sure you will. You will do this because you don't want to change, and there is no problem with that.

[Vanor]

If this isn't true, then please corect me.

 

The main problem with CTF now, is there isn't enough ammo on the maps for people to play effectively.

 

So it shouldn't be that hard for Raven or more to the point, a fan to add more ammo to the maps via the tools and then people could use that.

 

As far as sabers go, I'm starting to think that it simply won't be possable to make both types of players happy. On the one hand you have the CTF/FFA types who want the sabers to be one hit kills or at least fast kills. On the other you have the duelist types who want their fights to last longer, and be more intense.

 

A long drawn out saber fight, won't work very well in a CTF game I'm sure.

 

So basicly Raven will have to decide who gets what they want, CTF players or Duel players. If that's the case, then the decision should be based on what is played more. I'd be willing to bet that duel/saber only FFA is far more common then CTF. So that should be the game type supported the most. And there is the point that there are plenty of other games out there more suited for CTF style play, and very few out there suited for a sword fight type game. Why should those of us who favor dueling, give up the one and only game we have that let us do it, in favor of CTF... Especialy when CTF may not be that popular of a game style.

 

If the main problem with CTF is ammo, then go fix it yourself. That's not exactly a hard thing to do.

[Kuroshi]

Originally posted by Vanor

If this isn't true, then please corect me.

 

The main problem with CTF now, is there isn't enough ammo on the maps for people to play effectively.

 

This makes a lot more sense. But wasn't this a problem before? I remember people commenting on it.

 

So it shouldn't be that hard for Raven or more to the point, a fan to add more ammo to the maps via the tools and then people could use that.

 

Good solution, except I don't believe you are allowed to distribute modified maps from the game. Or am I misinformed? Making new CTF maps would be a better idea, if that's true.

 

So basicly Raven will have to decide who gets what they want, CTF players or Duel players. If that's the case, then the decision should be based on what is played more.

 

I don't think that what is used more should get what they want. What if you applied that logic to LS vs DS? Your point on ammo is good enough alone.

[[D12]SirBanshee]

Originally posted by bellenberger

On servers that allowed guns, all the gun people did was get the repeater, find a group of saber people fighting, and blow them all away with a massive spam of secondary repeater fire. There was no counter if you had the lightsaber... I'm sorry that you can't get 50 kills on saber vs. gun servers. boo hoo.

[/b]

 

Obviously you have never played a "Real" guns game. The only people who do that are newbies. Real gunners fight guns vs guns game. Not saber vs guns.

 

Most gunners out there would respect a saber FFA and just either bypass it or join in with a saber. Being a gunner doesn't mean cheaping **** up.

 

The patch is a good patch in my opinion for the sabers. Maybe the backstab shouldn't have been tweaked though. I'm very pleased with the DFA change even if it receieved entirely too much attention. Lots of games incorporate a One Hit Kill move. Even JK1 contained a glitch that allowed a small chance of getting a One Hit Kill. Many of you are suggesting that strictly gunners adapt, my question is why didnt you strictly Saberists adapt?

 

But ammo for gunners is essential. Especically if in JK2 guns have a extremely fast rate of fire. Other games like CS, HL, TFC, and UT are usually faster but the ammo is abundant. Thats why levels like CO, and Ji-Oasis were very popular in JK1. It made for impressive gun fights. Not simply running around searching for ammo the entire game. Due to the slow speed of movement in JK2(compared to CS, JK1, and UT) getting ammo is very troublesome. No one wants to spend 2-3 minutes trying to get ammo just so they can slug it out with someone for less than 45 seconds.

 

Raven should've at least answered to why the guns weres changed by now. They explained the saber changes.

[TheDarkSide]

SpiderAL - long time no see...when I last saw you, we were debating bunnyhops and fanboys For the record, what you and others were preaching wasn't a "just live with it and adapt" philosophy. It was a "hey this is an fps first and SW game second, go find yourself a saber only server if you don't like guns."

 

But I digress. You're last paragraph is dead on target. The patch is out there, and the more energy people spend clamoring about the patch is energy they could spend adapting to it. No matter what anyone thinks, Raven is not going to pull the patch back, so if you really don't like it that much, reload the old version and go about your merry way. The rest of us will adapt just fine without you.

You can email Raven directly with your displeasure, but if I were them I don't how much I'd listen. Many of the people whining about the new patch have come on here and implied that Raven did nothing but listen to the previous whiners and changed things to suit them. No mention or acknowledgement that they tested out their own patch, probably had dozens of meetings on what exactly to do, what to fix and how to best fix it. The general line of thinking here is that they just knee-jerked gave everything that the "whiners" wanted.

NEWSFLASH for you guys: They saw what was posted in the first "official patch request thread" and used those as suggestions. If you think Raven just read those things, and started just implementing stuff willy nilly to please them, you are gravely mistaken and on top of that very insulting.

 

TDS

[WD_Rage]

AL! How ya been, bro? I haven't seen ya in a while.

 

Some quick notes:

 

And some advice for Gunners, get working on learning how to conserve ammo more efficiently, or just don't use the patch eh, you're starting to sound like a bunch of sabreists.

 

You can conserve ammo all you want. Conservation is no problem. My aim, and 50% of all the other competitive CTF teams, have excellent aim. Conservation isn't the problem, the problem is have not enough ammo to do our jobs. Defense needs ammo, mid-fielders need ammo, and attackers need ammo. Yes, both teams are in the same predicament, however, that's a lame excuse.

 

What a pile of shiat.

 

Raven is balancing the gameplay and all you whiners can talk about is how YOU WOULD DO IT BETTER

 

Let me share something with you. They know what they are doing. They are a reputable game developer. Just let them do their job and if you don't like it then send them an email or GO AWAY.

 

I'll see the real players online...

 

News flash, the game was already as balanced as it could be. The only things that really needed to be changed were the hit boxes and the actual bugs in the game. DFA was easy to spot and easy to get away from. Yes, people spammed it to no end, but you could tell when someone was about to do it and you could properly do what was needed.

 

As for Raven being a reputable game developer, yes they are. However, that does not make them infallable. Currently, Raven is bowing and catering to the saberists. Let me share something with you. If you paid for this game, I paid the same amount. I have the right to voice my opinion and have the aspect of the game that I prefer to be how I like it. One question: Who are the real players? The ones that use a saber and jump on a guns server and whine about being killed by a gun? I play JK2 as a sport, so I guess that does not make me a real player in your eyes. Bleh.

 

I'm sure you realize that if the other side prefers your style they will have the exact same problems. I know you liked your style of play, but if the patch changes game mechanics that's just the way things are. You fall back on the excuse that people that are new to the game are the problem, which is wrong. That is never the problem, and you know it.

 

Every competent team prefers the old style of gameplay. There's no question in it. We are all unanimous in this area, and yes, the problem IS the newbies that do not take the time to learn the game. The guns were cut because of the newbs that whined about getting killed by a gun on a gun server. That IS the problem, and you know it.

 

If you don't like the new patch, you can always play the old version, which I am sure you will. You will do this because you don't want to change, and there is no problem with that.

 

We have not upgraded our server, along with nearly every other CTF clan that has it's own dedicated server. Leagues are requiring 1.02 as well as 1.03 isn't suited for competitive play.

 

That's rather stubborn of you. I guess you'd rather be stuck with DFA spammers and drainwhores than adapt. You've just exlcuded youself from every patch in the future, unless they revert some changes which I doubt they will do. You'll also have to tolerate work arounds for the exploits (arm models) instead of enjoying all the models.

 

No, it's not stubborn of me or anyone else who is not upgrading their server. As for DFA spammers, it was so easy to spot and counter. I have no idea why people didn't realize that. Plus, in CTF, you're holding a gun, not a saber. Drain doesn't really come into play in FF Guns play, so we don't have a problem with that. As for excluding ourselves from future patches, we'll see. Raven will realize that more than saberists play this game, and they'll finally realize that we've all paid the same amount of money for it. FF Guns is what kept JK1 alive as long as it did. Raven would be stupid to ignore this. If they do, JK2 won't last very long. As for the work-arounds and exploits, our competition are honorable teams who need not use exploits. There's no problem there.

 

BTW the patch is going to do the exact opposite of stifle sompetitive play. It's going to make play MORE competitive. The spammers newbies will be forced to become BETTER players and if they don't they'll likely quit playing because they'll suck. Either way it means the ratio of good players out there will increase. How does THAT stifle competitive play?

 

How is it doing the exact opposite? Little ammo == no defense or offense. Yeah, that's competitive. The amount of good players does not increase competitive play. If you played JK1, look at this model. FF Gunners and FF Saberists were the best players in JK1. However, everyone that wasn't good were discouraged everytime they played the good players. Instead of trying harder to get good, they dropped the race and started playing underwater nf thermal dets. I can't help that they didn't want to try. The mass people don't want to try. They want to sign on and play. As for the reduced ammo making better players, skill will increase very, very minutely. Many of us are at the top of the game. It's not like JK1 where the learning curve was steep and it took literally years (for most) to get at the top. JK2 was straight forward. Many of us reached the top in a matter of weeks. How do I know we're at the top? We use every tool that has been handed us, and we've used them extremely well. Looking at the aspects of the game, there's not much more to learn in JK2.

 

How is this a problem? So you have a herder time defending the middle and your base, but so will your opponent. So look at it this way...It will be easier to get the flag and get it back. How is that nixing competitive play?

 

CTF isn't about how easy it is to get the flag, it's about how hard it is. It's about defending your flag, controling key points of the map, and controling the enemy's base. Easily getting the flag is no fun. Now CTF games will run into sudden death all the time, and it'll be who can keep the grabbing/capping cycle going the quickest and fastest. Bleh, that's not fun.

 

I have seen very few (probably none actually) arguments against this patch that are valid concerns for the gameplay.

 

Learn to accept change, it's a rather constant thing in life. You'll simply become a better, more diverse player if you can learn to adapt to new surroundings, evironments and game play styles.

 

Then you haven't been looking much at all. I appreciate you trying to uphold what you think should be, but there are more than saberists that play this game. I realize that you probably don't do much competitive gaming (by your comments, that's what it seems to me). So you really don't understand what CTF or TDM is about. Maybe you should load up T2 or UT and play some of their CTF (I sense a barrage of "Why don't you play those games" excuses that get old). Then you'll realize it's more than just who can cap the flag on every flag run.

 

I have no problem with change when it's thought out. I have a problem with changed that comes from half-baked ideas and from people that don't have the sense to look for saber only servers. Please do not preach to me about adapting to new surroundings, environments, and game play styles. I've done my fair share of it. I shouldn't have to adapt in this particular case due to the saberists in guns server, though (which I do know is the reason for the ammo cuts).

[Vanor]

A question for you WD_Rage,

 

You seem to be a fairly reasonable person, and have put out well thought out reasons for your dislike of the 1.03 patch. I've never played CTF, and that seems to be your main game, so you seem to be the best one to address this question.

 

Is the main problem with the 1.03 patch the lack of ammo?

 

If so, I can see how that would harm CTF game play. I've never played CTF in JK2, I have played it some in other games, and spent 6 years in the military, so I know that ammo is vitaly imporant. When the stuff hits the fan, quite offten your best option is to lock-n-load, and then rock-n-roll.

 

If ammo shortage is the main problem, then why don't the serrious CTF players make new maps with more ammo? I mean if the big problem is a shortage of ammo, and not blance issues force/saber wise in the patch, then simply making new maps with more ammo would be a very effective and simple fix, no?

[Dvlos]

Originally posted by WD_Rage

In reality, there can be no balance. Bringing a saber to a gunfight is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I don't care if the knife bearer is a Jedi (you forget the gunner is too), a Jedi cannot deflect EVERY shot or push EVERY projectile away from himself. If you don't believe me, why did Qui Gon and Obi Wan run from the destroyer droids in ep. 1.

 

Your a bit wrong. Your also not comparing apples to apples here. Obviously, in all the movies the JEDI had advantages over any troopers. With the exception of the droidekas because they had shields (not because they had guns).

 

However. It would be (perhaps, I dunno) kinda 2-dimensional if every HAD to play with sabers, that wasn't the spirit or guideline layed out by Jk1. To make this game compete with out shooters, IMO, they added guns that just don't exist in Star WArs. The only thing they can add and stay true to SW is, blasters, big blaster, small blasters, spears (ROTJ), grappling hook things (Bobba Fett in ROTJ), energy balls (Gungans), and thermal detonators (ROTJ and ESB).

 

BUT -

 

If that were the case, then anyone who picks up a gun would be outmatched, a trained Jedi can deflect and push everything.

 

That's what patches are about.. the balance. SOme people like guns, with force, or NF, others like sabers. Personally I enjoyed the creative weapons of JK1, don't really care for them in JK2, mainly because the saber combat is 200 times more interesting than the guns.

 

I would have loved to see some more creative guns in JK2, the flechette gun is dumb its just like UT and so is that sniper gun. I would have prefered to see something like a "droid arm" or some kind of heavy chain-gun type enormous gun, that reduces your movement and turning speed but deals tons of shots out. Or a stun gun, crap like that...

 

BUt what other people have said is valid. If you dont like guns, or getting shot in the back while sabering, your in the wrong server. FFA means anything goes, trip mines, det packs, FFA is all about the "never standing still" and racking up kills.

 

If you want to saber with class go to a duel server. ETc... There are 6 options and all the servers seem to have is CTF/FFA/Duel. In any case there are plenty of Saber Only servers out there.. so bitching about guns is stupid. And I also agree they made CTF fun pre-patch and a little more cumbersome post patch. CTF got hurt with this patch and so did Dark Jedi.

 

I think they should have made grip MORE powerful not less. Dark Rage should also be tweaked as should Protection. Dark rage should double DMG or something.

 

Considering Light Jedi can absorb, then Rage should be the counter (and probably is at the moment), to absorb abusers. But if someone is raged then Prot should be the answer, or Prot and push/speed something.. you know?

[Kuroshi]

Originally posted by WD_Rage

One question: Who are the real players? The ones that use a saber and jump on a guns server and whine about being killed by a gun?

 

Nice loaded question. Obviously everyone is a real player, but you don't seem to think that people that use the lightsaber are real players. Or am I reading you wrong here?

 

Every competent team prefers the old style of gameplay. There's no question in it. We are all unanimous in this area, and yes, the problem IS the newbies that do not take the time to learn the game. The guns were cut because of the newbs that whined about getting killed by a gun on a gun server. That IS the problem, and you know it.

 

Essentially, you are discounting the argument of others by saying they aren't any good at the game. If they disagree with you, they aren't any good. That is not a way to discuss things.

 

I am big into guns myself, but I agree with the saber users on the secondary fire mode changes. They were just too powerful for what it cost. I would have made them weaker for the same amount of ammo, and I think the new ammo cost is a little too much, but I'm just going to play along with it.

 

CTF isn't about how easy it is to get the flag, it's about how hard it is.

 

Perhaps there are some that see CTF differently than you. Perhaps all your problems could be solved by maps with more ammo. You are into competitive play, so you have a team. Get your team together and make a map for your style of play. We could all do with more CTF maps.

[Vanor]

Originally posted by Kuroshi

This makes a lot more sense. But wasn't this a problem before? I remember people commenting on it.

 

I don't know if it was or not, I don't remember anyone commenting on it before, but I know that doesn't mean it wasn't If it was, then my idea would be a good way to fix what's wrong.

 

Good solution, except I don't believe you are allowed to distribute modified maps from the game. Or am I misinformed? Making new CTF maps would be a better idea, if that's true.

 

Good point, I didn't consider the fact that you couldn't simply edit a map Raven made and then put it out on the net... But I'm not sure if that's true or not. There have been maps here based on some SP levels, like the jedi training hall. If the lack of ammo is the main issue, then Raven could increase it on FFA/CTF maps, and CTF players could make new maps with more ammo on it. None of this would require a change to how sabers/force work to fix CTF.

 

I don't think that what is used more should get what they want. What if you applied that logic to LS vs DS? Your point on ammo is good enough alone.

 

Well that all depends on. When you have two groups who both want a feature to work differently, then you have to decide who gets what they want, provided that what the two groups want are mutaly excusive. Lets say that Duelist want saber fighting to be fairly lenthy and intense, with lots of blocking and such... So it feels like the movies. But on the other hand the CTF/FFA players want saber fighting to be quick and deadly, so they can get in as many frags as possable, or use it to defend/kill the capper before he gets away with the flag.

 

Lets say that Raven can't give both sides what they want... That the amount of coding to make sabers behave differently in a CTF flag then they do in a duel simply isn't feasable. Then who gets what they want? Many people asked Raven to make saber fights more like they were in SP, Raven did this and now people are upset about this. So assuming that SP type sabers in MP won't work for CTF types, but it's exactly what duelist want, who gets what they want? Now it's possable that Raven could try and make it so both sides are happy, and I think they might... By increasing the damage a touch, and reducing the blocking a touch.

 

But if they have to chose which side to apease, then shouldn't they do it based on what is more popular? I mean that's sorta the whole point behind a Republic/Democracy - give the majorty what they want. (yes that's rather simplistic, but it is somewhat true.)

 

Using my logic on DS vs LS... That doesn't really apply, as DS vs LS is just different applications of the same thing, the force. They don't need to be mutaly exclusive, and in fact they really can't be. If one side or the other was clearly supperior, that would be a problem. Duel vs CTF isn't the same thing. You don't have Duel games fighting against CTF games , you do have DS'ers fighting LS'ers. I'm not sure if I'm making much sense here or not.

 

I'm not saying that Raven couldn't make both sides happy, but when it comes to saber fights, I don't see how they could. What both sides want, seems to be mutaly excusive... Fast and deadly vs lenthy and intense. If I'm wrong then so be it, I'd actualy rather be wrong in this case. I think Raven could make saber fighting something that both sides could live with... But then it comes a question of making it so both sides can live with it but neither side is happy. I don't have any idea what the split is for CTF/FFA vs Duel/Saber only FFA is, but if 75% of the people playing are in duel/saber only FFA's then wouldn't it make sense to make saber fights into what they want? I'm talking about sabers only here. I don't think you need to destroy CTF to make dueling what people want, but I don't think you can make sabers appealing to both sides.

[TheDarkSide]

WD_rage:

 

I see your points, and respect your opinion, but by reading through several of your posts here, it would seem to me that you play on No Force CTF servers. While ammo is a key component of defense, offense and interdiction/midfielders, you make it seem like it is the ONLY component.

 

You've mentioned you only get 12 shots max with new patch on a repeater. Correction should be in order. You're talking about alt fire, right? If you're using the repeater primary fire you got PLENTY of ammo to take people down.

 

As a competitive team player, you should be well aware and able to use all modes of many weapons, and not be dependent on a single mode of fire for one weapon. And if the specific gametype can be TOTALLY ruined (your thinking) by altering one or two of the weapons alt-fire to require double ammo, then that specific gametype has problems for you to begin with.

 

In Bespin CTF for example, there are sooooo many ways to the defend the flag without sucking down ammo, I won't insult you by listing them out for you like you don't know them.

 

With regards to your UT ladder point, how many competitive UT CTF matches use the original 4 maps that came with the game? I'm going to guess not many. There are so many incredible CTF maps out there for those other games they don't have to.

If all you need to make you happy is more ammo for your alt-firing of the repeater....trust me more ammo will be forthcoming when the CTF maps start rolling in. In fact, Raven gave us the .map for Bespin CTF...all you'd have to do is drop some more ammo packs in there, recompile and distribute!

 

TDS

[IronJedi Kaga]

Thanks for the info but there were plenty of questions that you left unanswered.

 

Why was saber throw added to NF saber fights?

 

Why was grip altered? As an HPB I can still push 95% of the people who gripped me. Its not that hard even when people can run and grip at the same time.

 

All the other changes seem fie, but those two are uncalled for IMO.

[Kuroshi]

Vanor:

From your post I see that you understand what I mean but not what I said. LS/DS is much like WD_Rage's Duel/CTF because as you said, improving one can hurt the other. It is best to try to improve both at the same time, not just improving what people use the most (and therefore comment on most vocally). However, as we have mentioned already, we've come to a partial conclusion that adding more ammo to CTF overcomes the problems (for some, not all players) set in by the increased ammo usage of certain weapons' secondary fire.

 

Is there any reason why this solution isn't a good one, or something else that needs to be addressed?

[WD_Rage]

Originally posted by Vanor

If this isn't true, then please corect me.

 

The main problem with CTF now, is there isn't enough ammo on the maps for people to play effectively.

 

That's part of it. In 1.02 the ammo was scarce, but it was playable. With this new patch, ammo consumption has doubled (and more than tripled on the HR); which leaves the gunners with even less ammo. The fix for that would be to restore the ammo consumption to that of 1.02.

 

As far as sabers go, I'm starting to think that it simply won't be possable to make both types of players happy. On the one hand you have the CTF/FFA types who want the sabers to be one hit kills or at least fast kills. On the other you have the duelist types who want their fights to last longer, and be more intense.

 

A long drawn out saber fight, won't work very well in a CTF game I'm sure.

 

Sabers are usually not used in CTF. If they are, it's as a last ditch weapon. The saber fixes really don't apply to us.

 

So basicly Raven will have to decide who gets what they want, CTF players or Duel players. If that's the case, then the decision should be based on what is played more. I'd be willing to bet that duel/saber only FFA is far more common then CTF. So that should be the game type supported the most. And there is the point that there are plenty of other games out there more suited for CTF style play, and very few out there suited for a sword fight type game. Why should those of us who favor dueling, give up the one and only game we have that let us do it, in favor of CTF... Especialy when CTF may not be that popular of a game style.

 

If the main problem with CTF is ammo, then go fix it yourself. That's not exactly a hard thing to do.

 

Raven doesn't have to decide anything. Sabers aren't used in CTF (unless otherwise specified, which I haven't seen), so there really isn't anything to decide. Saberists can have their tweaks, and gunners can have our gameplay. As for us fixing the maps, it is up to the leagues to decide that. We can fix anything we like (sort of), but the leagues have to use it. What's the use of training of a self-fixed map if it's not a legal tourney map?

[Vanor]

*sigh* wrote up a lenthy post, but couldn't get it submited

 

Kuroshi,

 

I think I've come to realize what the problem is...

 

There are basicly 2 styles of playing in JK2, Dueling and FFA/CTF. This patch effected both styles, but in different ways. So at least some of the people who like/dislike the patch dislike it because it effects one style of play, and could care less about the other. I'm in that group I know... I play duel type games only so any nerfing done to guns doesn't really effect me.

 

I think idealy Raven will make JK2 suitable and enjoyable for most everyone who plays either style of game. I personaly hope they address the issues with guns in FFA/CTF maps in some way, so those people are happy with JK2. I think they did that for us saberist, it seems to me the majorty of duelist are quite happy with the patch, excluding those who's biggest whine is they can't spam DFA/Flipkick anymore.

 

Part of the problem in this debate is the two different groups tend to get confused... You have people who dislike the patch because it harms CTF, having their voice/opinion being thrown in with those who's major problem with the patch is they can't spam DFA or flipkick anymore.

 

For the CTF/FFA style... I can see what their beef is, nerfing the guns and limiting ammo is a problem. Skill aside, the more ammo the better to a point, so reducing the amount of ammo is a problem almost by default... Unless of course there was so much it was silly to begin with, which isn't the case in JK2.

 

For the Duelist style, most (80%+ I'd say) wanted saber fighting to be more like it was in SP. Raven did this, and now some people are unhappy about it.

 

Here's the rub as I see it... When the two styles start to mix. Since I don't play with guns hardly ever I don't care much what they do with them. So if they were to address the issue and make guns like they were once again, I would be fine with that. I have to agree that anyone who pops on a true FFA server, and whines about being shot is being silly. That isn't to say that gun vs saber balance is perfict, but I don't think it was really all that bad.

 

The problem I see is this. Making changes in how Saber fighting works to appease the CTF types, is doing harm to the duelist players. I honestly don't think that Raven can make sabers work in such a way that both sides will be really happy with them. One the one hand you have the duelist who wants saber fights to be lenthy and intense. On the other you have people who want sabers to be quick and deadly. I just don't see where the middle road between those would be, that both sides would be happy with. If it could be done, then I'd be all for that.

 

I just wouldn't want to see the duelist have to give up the SP type saber fighting they asked for, for a handfull of FFA types who use the saber now and again.

 

Does that make more sense?

[Vanor]

Originally posted by WD_Rage

Raven doesn't have to decide anything. Sabers aren't used in CTF (unless otherwise specified, which I haven't seen), so there really isn't anything to decide. Saberists can have their tweaks, and gunners can have our gameplay. As for us fixing the maps, it is up to the leagues to decide that. We can fix anything we like (sort of), but the leagues have to use it. What's the use of training of a self-fixed map if it's not a legal tourney map?

 

Wouldn't it be easier for the leagues to swich over to the new patch, so the people in the leagues who want to do both dueling and CTF can play with the 1.03 patch, and make new maps that have the ammo CTF needs?

 

I have to admit I don't understand why Raven changed the guns like they did... But it seems to me it would be easier in the long run to simply make maps that work right, then to not use the patch.

[mIRC]

Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]

 

Medium Stance:

Medium was not meant to be the whirling dervish style, so it was made so that, if you do the same exact move over and over again, you cannot chain as many attacks as if you mix it up a little. "Spinning top" fighters should use fast style. This is the *only* change to medium style.

 

 

So Raven encourages "spinning top" fighters?

 

This is truely saddening.

[Jellybelly]

Thank's for the info ChangKhan.

 

I made this post in another thread but NewBJedi asked me to move it here, so I did so with some modifications.

 

First of all...massive thank's to all at Raven for putting together this patch for us.

It's nice to know they are interested in hearing us customers out, and furthermore actually release patches based on our requests.

Many developers don't even bother to do any of this...so it's most fortunate that the makers of such a great game care enough to do this.

 

Thank's Raven, nice work.

 

Ok...about the patch...

 

I tried it (only the sabercombat mind You), and in my view it feels like the sabercombat of the singleplayer game indeed.

Noticing a lot of views regarding this game and this patch, I think that NewBJedi's general suggestion might be a quite a good way to settle most of (if not all) of this debate.

 

If Raven where to make as many game options as possible serverside options, then people could tailor the game according to their specific need.

This way the Quakefraggers, the Star Wars purists...and just about everyone in between...can get their full share of fun from this excellent game.

 

I don't know the amount of work this would require on Ravens behalf...but maybe it would still be less work in the long run than trying to trim the game according to public demands with patch after patch.

 

Most options that I think would contribute to the multiplayer game as serverside options (apart from those mentioned by NewBJedi), seems to already be incuded in the single player game. They where included in the "Ladder.txt" readme file that came with "The Ladder" map.

 

I tried them out in that very map and here's my feedback on it:

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

g_saberautoblocking

 

1 = On (default)

0 = Off (when off bind +block to key)

 

The above is in my opinion one of the most important...as it enables the block function (still being automatic in it's moves) to be manually triggered on and off by pressing a key.

 

As You can't execute an attack while pressing the block key, it balances the offense and defense aspects of the saber combat quite well.

 

When triggered, the blocking function seems to work pretty much the same way as the fully automatic block...i.e. You need to roughly face the direction of the opponents attack to make a successful block.

 

It also seemed to feature a chance of knocking the saber out of the opponents (in this case bots) hand...this is not included in the default setting (autoblocking on).

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

g_saberautoaim

 

1 = On (default)

0 = Off

 

This is an interesting function.

 

"The Ladder.txt" readme figures this might make any automatically executed moves (for example the backstab of the light mode) manually controlled. However, I couldn't tell any difference with the backstab turning this funtion off, so I can't say for sure.

 

What I did find however, was this:

 

Turning this function off (setting it to 0), seems to enable the "random" playstyle of the pre-patch multiplayer saber combat.

 

For example...standing completely still and hitting primary attack with this function off, will result in a series of slashes in random directions (just like in former multiplayer saber combat). However, doing the above with this function turned on...will result in the exact same slash time after time.

 

If my guess is correct, this could be the function to use if You would want to switch between the new combat style and the pre-patch multiplayer one.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

g_sabermovespeed

 

1 = Normal

<1 = Slower

>1 = Faster

 

This changes how fast You can move while attacking with the saber.

 

Slowing this down will give a more "movie" feel to it. A real goodie for the "Star Wars" purists out there. No more highspeed backpedaling while slashing like crazy at the same time.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

g_saberanimspeed

 

1 = Normal

<1 = Slower

>1 = Faster

 

This changes the speed of the saberanimations (slashes etc). Also a very useful tool for tailoring Your prefered type of combat.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

g_saberrealisticcombat

 

0 = Off (default)

1 (or more) = On

 

Edited Sorry guys, I think I got this wrong the first time, here's what it seems to do:

 

Setting it on 1 seems to turn on enable a dismemberment feature (at least in singleplayer) and perhaps increase damage made by the saber as well. Increasing the value ( to more then 1), seems to increase the damage made by the sabers, thus also increasing their dismemberment power (i.e. easier and more dismemberments).

 

Also...DerthNader mentioned in a post after this one that the g_dismember and cg_dismember features now worked on servers. I'm sorry I didn't have time to test this, but if there is a possibility to enable serverside dismemberment in full (all bodyparts chopping), then that is very nice indeed.

 

The slow motion death feature would be also great as a serverside option well. If not else, it might at least be possible to implement as Duel server only option. /Edited

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Ok...the above are the (to me) known parameters that in my opinion would be very useful to saber gameplay as serverside options. The info is based on the "Ladder.txt" readme included in "The Ladder" map.

 

I think they would contribute a great deal to an already great game...especially in terms of flexibility and usability.

With possibilities to tailor Your servers saber combat, more people are bound to be content with the possibilities, and the games lifespan would increase as well. Maybe this would help settle the discussion of how the saber gameplay "should" be?

 

Not wanting to ask too much of Raven, I still think the way for them to go (to satisfy as many customers as possible and improve an already great product), is to focus on implementing as many serverside multiplayer gameplay options as possible.

 

As I mentioned before, although it might take some work and effort to do this on Ravens behalf now...I still think it would be easier for them in the long run...instead of trying to please as many as possible with further "static" patches.

They could put in the options in the multiplayer game, and then it would be up to the community to use the options given to them.

 

With massive serverside options available, further complaints and/or suggestions would not be so much directed to Raven, as to the admins of the gameservers.

 

My humble suggestion is thus along the lines of NewBJedi's:

Focus on implementing as many gameplay related serverside options as You possibly can in the next patch.

You can keep the current "default" game setup, but put the options in there...and then let the server admins do the gametweaking job for You.

 

Anyways...apologies if I'm talking about stuff that is not possible (for technical reasons for example), or if I'm just asking too much. Rest assure, I think this is an excellent game.

I'm grateful to Raven for making it in the first place and furthermore for listening to their customers and making a serious effort to meet their requests in the patch they just released.

 

Thank's Raven...most appreciated.

 

Take care all

 

Jellybelly

 

PS Sorry for long text.

[DerthNader]

I play & admin mostly duel so I'll confine my feed back with that in mind:

 

1. THANKS for all the hard work on the patch. Much appreciated.

 

2. THANKS for the linux server. No lag monkey MOHAA here

 

3. Sabre duels now last longer & seem much more evenly balanced.

 

4. The force balancing you have done is great. Drain/ lightning whoring no longer an issue. In fact it's good to see them used in the game now.

 

5. g_dismember / cg_dismember work great without crashing the server - w00t!

 

6. Force / weapon disabling now works a treat.

 

7. Nice combos available now.

 

8. Double tap for kick not an issue. An improvement actually. Before I found myself sometimes kicking someone for a kill & winning by mistake.

 

9. DFA now 'feels right' (big hit + big risk). No "aww comeon, there's no way I should have died from that I was miles away!" feeling.

 

10. I never fail to be staggered by the "TIHS SUXX00rs man!!!11" minority. Maybee when their balls drop they'll calm down

 

Thanks again.

[Nill the Mean]

I HAVE THE ANSWER!

 

Listen carefully now... If they do this in the next patch it will totally own.

1. Tone down saber clashing frequency during attack animations.

2. Up the damage on ALL saber attacks (apart from backstab, which needs a nerf)

3. Make the blocking radius more narrow.

4. Erm... I forgot. I'll post this later.

5. Less sparks when sabers clash.

6. ADD FISTS