Can we edit Obi Wan?

[Guest Jedi Master Xai-Qui]

Kurgan don't worry you are not alone. When I say edit levels. I mean create levels. When I say I am a Level Editor. I mean level creator. It is a use of language which get people confused. And I have the added problem that I can't spell.

I did not know Neumi and you were level editors (sorry creators). In other posts you gave the impression tome that you did not like editors.

I also think on the zone (If that is where LEC decide to allow multiplayer games to go there). They should make a special room for people who want to use hacks and let us serious players who have proper patches play uninterupted.

 

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The truth?

Even Reality does not exist

[Guest Kurgan]

Argath, isn't giving people the impression that an editor just like Jed will inevitably be made for ObiWan just as "innaccurate"?

 

I'm well aware of the situation with the plug-ins. I don't think we should be telling people "don't worry, a free level editor will come out right away" or anything like that. They said that they didn't use one, and it was all created in 3DS Max using extra plugin's they created.

 

Didn't people have false assumptions about Indy5 as well, and didn't that cause alot of resentment and anger that could have been avoided? Shouldn't we try to avoid that scenario in this case as well?

 

I am just going by what the design team told me, but you can speculate all you want.

 

I'll keep it at that, because I really don't know (I don't have the game in front of me to conduct endless tests at the moment), but they're making it, so I'll take them at their word.

 

Oh and nobody needs assume that I have any dislike of editing or editors. I am glad some people have decided to create addons for games I enjoy, and some of them are of great quality. I have made some levels, but I haven't released them (they weren't very good).

 

I've made mods of course, and I know a bit about editing myself. ; ) I've also used 3DS Max (not extensively). I hope to work on it some more soon though. It's a great tool.

 

Nobody needs to assume that simply because I am being pessimistic on this subject, that I hate or despise anyone else who holds an opposite position. I merely disagree with them. I'm just interpreting the facts and evidence I'm given.

 

Like I've said many times, if I am wrong, and it turns out we can make our own free editor for ObiWan independant from 3D Studio (I wouldn't bet on it though) and making levels turns out to be easy, we can all have a big party, and I'll volunteer to eat my words on the subject. But until LEC shows me otherwise, I won't hold my breath. ; )

 

Oh, and on the subject of TPM editing, I have no idea. I never tried it, and since I don't have the game (I only had the demo, long since deleted from my hd), I can't really try.

 

The Jedi Council is just what all admins are titled because of the "ranking" system on the boards. So, yeah, ever since there was one.

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited June 17, 2000).]

[Guest Argath]

Every comment I've made regarding the creation of a level editor has begun with "Hopefully," "It would be nice if...," and similar comments. I have never said editing the game will be easy, nor have I said the creation of a third party editor is inevitable.

 

However, you have said, on several occasions, that 3DS Max will be required to edit the game. That's simply not true, because 3DS Max will be completely worthless without the plug-ins LEC created. The difficulty of editing Obi-Wan is completely unkown to you, me, and everyone else outside of the design team, but I can guarantee that 3DS Max will be useless for editing Obi-Wan levels without LEC's plug-ins.

 

A number of my posts from earlier in the thread seem to be gone. Did you delete them, or did the message board screw up, or...?

 

[This message has been edited by Argath (edited June 19, 2000).]

[Guest Slug]

Kurgan, it's common practice for a development team to use 3dsmax to create architecture, and then import that architecture into a program where objects, scripting, and lighting takes place.. 3dsmax is *not* a level editor - It's a geometry editor.. Simple as that.. Were you to ever crack the program open, you would see that..

[Guest Kurgan]

I never said 3DS Max was a level editor. It's simply what the developers used to create the levels. As I said before, there is no level editor (in the sense that JK had) for Obi-Wan.

 

Kurgan

[Guest Kurgan]

Oh and

but I can guarantee that 3DS Max will be useless for editing Obi-Wan levels without LEC's plug-ins

 

How do you know that? ; )

 

I have said myself that we need to figure out what plugin's were used, so I can't be accused of trying to fool anyone. What I said was certainly true. I haven't said anything incorrect that you know of.

 

I grant that the final analysis will have to wait until the game is released. I'm just echoing what the developers have told me.

 

Kurgan

[Guest Nob Akimoto]

There's no need go figure out what plug-ins were used. Anyone with half a brain could realise that proprietary LEC ones developed specifically for Obi-wan were used.

 

And also, developing or rather Mimicking a plug-in for MAX is most likely as difficult if not more so than creating a completely independant editor from scratch.

 

If there is a way found to edit OB1 levels, it'll most likley come from an external non-MAX plug-in based editor, plainly because it'd be easier to build a program to read what is currently known about whatever format that's used than it is to try to witch craft it back into a format MAX can recognise.

 

MAX in this case would be as useful as using a DXF editor to make the outline of a JK level then importing that DXF into JED.

 

JK didn't require a "clone" of LEIA to edit, I highly doubt OB1 will require a "cloned" MAX plug-in either.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Nob Akimoto (edited June 21, 2000).]

[Guest Argath]

How do you know that?

 

There's a difference between standalone 3DS Max and 3DS Max with a plugin. Anyone with even the most basic knowledge of the subject would probably realize that game levels are a bit more complex than simple wireframes, and thus require a plugin of some sort for lighting, object placement, flags, etc. Obi-Wan levels will not be editable with 3DS Max, just as the finished content in most other games, while having been created in Max or a similar program, is not editable by that program.

 

No other game requires a $3000 program to edit, and Obi-Wan is hardly the first to use Max as a development tool. Obi-Wan will not require, and most likely will not even be compatible with 3DS Max as an editing tool.

[Guest Kurgan]

Argath, I never said anything incorrect, I think you just want to fight with me over minor semantics, or what you see as me not speaking with the same terminology that you did.

 

I never said that using 3DS Max, without the plug-in's, would absolutely guarentee that you could easily make levels for Obi-Wan.

 

And we don't even know what those plug-in's do.

 

So, this bickering is pointless. Why don't you instead focus your energies at trying to argue with me in the other thread. ; )

 

It would be like if I said "Plumbers wear hats" and you said "No! No! You are saying something incorrect, they actually wear hants AND pants! You are making people think they wearing ONLY hats!" Or you said "No! No! You are saying that ALL plumbers wear hats! Some of them don't!" Either way, it's a silly reason to argue.

 

Kurgan

[Guest Argath]

It's more like telling someone he needs a wrench to remove the wheels from his car, but neglecting to tell him it will be useless without a wheel lock key to remove the lock nut. Regardless of whether the bad recommendation was given in malice or ignorance, it may mislead people and should be corrected.

[Guest Defiant]

Kurgan, you're encouraging people to buy a very expensive piece of commercial software and (at the very least) implying that it's the only way to edit/create obi-wan levels, or that some magical plugin that's out there was used to create the game. Do you know how to create MAX plugins, and how they work? I'm guessing you don't. You continue insisting that it's "just what I think based on what they've told me", but you won't allow people to persuade you otherwise with fact. You said yourself that you don't know what the plugins do, but in terms of game development, that's easy to explain.

 

3DS Max can have import plugins, but in terms of actual game editing, most of it is only exporting. In other words, the original game content could very well be in MAX format, but the actual game files will be in a proprietary LA format. The reasons for using 3DS Max as an editor in a development team is simple: you don't have to craft your own 3D GUI and editing stuff. Furthermore, the game's artists don't have to adapt to a new editor, because they're already familiar with how 3DS Max works. You just design the rules and the file writing code (which should be done anyway as part of the game). To support our strong suggestion of plugins being used for file writing in the use of Obi-Wan, I would cite the example of the 3DS Max plugin for creating Unreal objects and the 3ds2unr program from Epic. The object plugin will export Unreal models directly from the Max GUI. The 3ds2unr program converts a 3D Studio file to the an unreal model. I don't have a direct link to the plugin anymore, but the 3ds2unr program is documented <a href="http://unreal.epicgames.com/Models.htm" target="_blank">here</a>. The difference? One requires a very expensive program to work, the other requires a brief usage of the command line. They both do the same basic stuff, mind you.

 

For game level files that store indoor geometry, 3DS files are not adequate. In most cases the primitives need to be sorted from back to front order for optimal drawing (I'll explain more on that if you'd like).

 

Furthermore, have you noticed that any MAX file specs are sketchy at best? I mean, do a search at <a href="http://www.wotsit.org" target="_blank">Wotsit</a>. There's 3DS (different format entirely), but not MAX. That's because (allegedly) every MAX file is highly dependent on the effects plugins used within it.

 

Last year, according to a search on <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com" target="_blank">Gamasutra</a>, LucasArts was looking to hire a plugin developer with the following responsibilities (I have bolded particularly relevant portions):

<ul>

[*]Construction and maintenance of 3D tools, including but not limited to VRML importers/exporters, mission designers, model utilities, and terrain editors.</li>

[*]Create plugins for art packages such as Maya, 3Dstudio Max, and SoftImage.</li>

[*]Collaborate with game programmers on the design of proprietary file-formats and data exchange protocols.</li>

[*]Serve as a technical liaison to artists and art-technicians.</li>

[*]Work with senior technical staff to help drive and maintain the conception-to-implementation art path.</li>

 

I hope this sheds some light on what plugins developed for 3DS Max in game development do.

 

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Defiant's Flying Temple

 

[This message has been edited by Defiant (edited June 21, 2000).]

[Guest Kurgan]

Well, I stand by my original statement:

 

yes

 

The whole point of this topic was simply to ask "Can we edit Obi-Wan?" and the anwer is "yes, you will be able to." This is the answer that LEC has been giving us now for some time. The only question remains "how" this will be done.

 

The point of contention is that the idea of using 3DS Max along with its plug-ins(which is complicated and expensive) to create levels turns many people off.

 

So others have tried to come up with alternative solutions to level creating:

 

1) the mod community will create a level editor,

 

2) some free program out there will do whatever it is 3DS Max and the LEC plug-in's do.

 

The only other solution that I can think of is that LEC would release their own level editor, but from very early on, we knew that this was not going to happen, and LEC's reason for not releasing one, was because none existed.

 

I think we should just all relax until the game comes out. That doesn't mean we can't debate of course, just that we should try to be realistic and not so confrontational about the subject. I know many have strong opinions on it.

 

When Obi-Wan is out, we can actually TRY those solutions and see what works.

 

I have simply been stating, that the most logical and direct way to edit Obi-Wan levels, would be to use what the LEC developers themselves used, since they said themselves that there was no editor, but everything was created directly in 3DS Max (with their custom plug-in's).

 

If you know more than me, and you know with 100% certainty that I am wrong, and your proposed solution works, then you can feel secure in the knowledge that the future of JK editing is assured with this simple solution. I'll just wait and see how it pans out...

 

One can tell this is hot topic that won't die anytime soon (until the game comes out and people try editing).

 

I think I've said all there is to say on this topic, but feel free to fight it out amongst yourselves.

 

As an E3 reporter, I was merely attempting to report what I was told when I was there. I am by no means a game developer, nor a resident expert on 3DS Max and all of its plug-in's. Nor do I work for LucasArts and know all that they are doing. But if you do, then more power to you.

 

My solution, as many have pointed out to me, was that by buying 3DS Max, and then aquiring plug-in's that mimicked the ones LEC used, would be able to create levels for Obi-Wan. To put it simply, yes, that's what I'm saying.

 

However, there is certainly the possibilty that I am wrong, and if somebody can figure out a way around this, then I'll gladly pat you on the back.

 

But, I will say this, if you do decide to buy 3DS Max and it turns out it doesn't work for you, it's not my fault.

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited June 21, 2000).]

[Guest Orbvs_Terrarvm]

Sheeeesh guys. The world will come to an end over editing if you keep this up!

 

I do hope some editing programs come out for Obiwan. I am seriously thinking about making a mod.

 

You guys seem to know a lot about editing. Tell me if you think this would be possible. The mod plays similar to Counter-Strike where

there are two teams (Empire and Rebellion) and the maps are played in rounds. The rounds are won by either eliminating the other team or by accomplishing an objective.

Here is an example:

 

Star Wars: A New Hope

The map is the Correllian Corvette in the beging of ANH as it is being boarded by Darth Vaders Star Destroyer.

The Rebellin has 5 seconds to get positioned before the Stormtroopers board the ship. One Rebel officer has to find a bot controlled C3P0 and R2D2 and direct them to an escape pod.

To keep the battle engaging both teams get two lives per round.After the second death they are out for the remainder of the round.

In case there has not been a winner yet, when there is 30 seconds left in the round a random dead player from the Empire side is brought back to life as Darth Vader (with full force abilities) to search the ship for the 2 droids.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Nob Akimoto]

Originally posted by Kurgan:

But, I will say this, if you do decide to buy 3DS Max and it turns out it doesn't work for you, it's not my fault.

 

Kurgan

 

No offense, but if you're gonna sprout off that it's the only way or easiest way, then you better be ready to take responsibility you.

 

You run a community news site(one with official developer/publisher ties to boot), it's YOUR job to keep the populace informed with not only first hand information but with the contents of which double checked with well researched out information.

 

Your job is not to make assumptions based on non-existant knowledge of an area you have admitted have no clue in.

 

If you must post about how LEC used a 3DX MAX plug-in for the creation of their levels, you should also do the follow as per usually dictated just plain old work ethic on the side of the ones with connections and news posting responsibility. VERIFY what exactly a plug-in does in MAX, HOW they're created, and WHAT is required to create them, IF you are to post about it being THE way to edit a game.

 

Otherwise it's the height of irresponsibility to proclaim a $3000 utility to be the only possible way to edit some game and say "I won't take responsibility for posting this information" if it doesn't work out.

 

[This message has been edited by Nob Akimoto (edited June 21, 2000).]

[Guest Slug]

... Here's what we're saying Kurgan.. 3dsmax won't help you at all without a level editor - It will *only* be used to create geometry - So, if we all go out and buy 3dsmax, we can make some amazing geometry for our levels..... and have absolutely no way to get it to be playable in OW... The only conceivable way that we will ever be capable of making our own levels for OW is if someone *does* make a level editor for it - At which point, they'd be a fool not to add the ability to create architecture as well as the ability to import geometry from 3dsmax, since they'd essentially be telling everyone who d/ls their program, "Go buy a 500 dollar proggy if you wanna use this"..

[Guest Defiant]

That's the idea, though, Kurgan! You can't have the stuff that LEC used. A plugin is something like a DLL--it's an actual software component. And, given LEC's past with editing, I doubt they'll release it. So, I stand by my statement: Don't encourage people to waste thousands of dollars on something that doesn't do what you endorse it to.

[Guest Argath]

What Kurgan is saying is that editors could attempt to recreate the plugins LEC used for 3DS Max. After examining the file format, it is conceivable that someone could create a plugin for 3DS Max that mimics the functions of LEC's. Then, gamers would be required to purchase Max in order to edit or create Obi-Wan levels.

 

It's a shame he doesn't realize only a moron would create such a thing, as developing a standalone editor is not only faster and easier, but has the added benefit of allowing anyone to edit the game. No one in his right mind would bother with making a 3DS Max plugin to edit a game, since that requires the same amount of knowledge of the file format and more work than simply creating an editor does.

[Guest Orbvs_Terrarvm]

Now now be nice....

[Guest Kurgan]

We'll see who's right Argath.. ; )

 

And what you decide to do with your money is your problem, not mine.

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited June 23, 2000).]

[Guest Argath]

No, you will see who's right. Anybody with any decent amount of knowledge or experience in this subject already knows full well what is and isn't correct.

 

Furthermore, your unwillingness to take responsibility for your actions is disturbing. As an administrator of a major community site, you should at least have the common courteousy to check your information before posting, especially considering your lack of knowledge on this topic. "It's not my fault if my suggestions don't work" doesn't cut it; it's grossly irresponsible to make such bold declarations about how to edit a game (especially considering your comments are completely baseless) and then tag on, "[if] it doesn't work for you, it's not my fault.

 

You're encouraging people to purchase a $3000 program which you insist is the only way possible to edit Obi-Wan, despite a complete lack of facts supporting your position. As has been explained numerous times, 3DS Max will not be required, so such claims are extremely inaccurate. If you insist on commenting on this topic, it would be appreciated if you'd discontinue telling people that 3DS Max is required to edit Obi-Wan. Comments of that nature are complete rubbish, as I and several others have explained thoroughly numerous times.

 

This isn't the first time you've commented on a topic you have very little or no knowledge about. I think your past claims that the 486 DX is massively overclockable (<a href=http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/Forum5/HTML/002319.html target=_blank>here</a>) and that creating a new game engine is easier than licensing an existing one, among other, similarly ridiculous comments (I also recall a claim that color isolation in video editing doesn't exist), sum up your ineptitude on computer related topics. I honestly have no idea why you insist on commenting when it's obvious you are wrong, especially when numerous knowledgable people take contrary positions. Your incorrect information can, and does, mislead people, and I have no clue why anyone, especially someone in such a prominant position, would willingly give out misinformation.

 

If you want to remain ignorant until the game is released, it's none of my business; however, I take exception to you misleading and misinforming others. At any rate, you should check the validity of your information before claiming that it's absolutely correct. In this case, you're dead wrong.

 

[This message has been edited by Argath (edited June 24, 2000).]

[Guest Captain_Ramen]

We all know that Kurgan is short on responsibility when it comes time to step up to the plate. You can't hold yourself as a leader of the community, who repeatedly claims to be so involved in his 'little corner of the web' that you don't know a whole lot about the other six or seven corners, and then make some totally unsubstantiated statements to the community, and refuse to accept responsibility for them.

 

Here are the scenarios, assuming LEC permits us to create new levels. 1). The levels are in 3ds Max format. Even though this would be stupid for LEC to do, it'd be easy for us, because Code Alliance dude could write a (any brush format editor) -> 3ds Max converter. 2). OW uses a naitive level format. LEC, out of the kindness of its heart, gives us the export plugin for Max. Code Alliance dude sees how the plugin manipuates 3ds Max architecture, figures out the OW format, then writes an editor for it. 3). LEC doesn't give us the plugin, but Code Alliance dude figures it out anyway, and the result is the same as 2). 4). Code Alliance dude never figures it out, and this argument is all academic. No point in LEC saying we can edit away if we can't figure it out, is there?

 

1) ain't gonna happen, because you can't do scripting in Max.

 

Lots of dev teams use 3ds Max for level architecture and models for games... proprietary level editors tend to be real buggy, and for a small company that's short on time and on someone else's dime (hey, that rhymes), it's better to use something tried and true.

 

We on the other hand aren't under any chronal (that's probably not a word) or financial restraints. So we can afford to have a few guys dedicated to creating a level editor.

 

New Legends is a good example of it. IM is doing everything in Max, and porting it to UnrealED for lighting, scripting, etc. JC is pretty sure we'll be able to use UnrealED2 for it.

[Guest dreddnott]

What Kurgan lacks in responsibility, intelligence, wit, and knowledge, he more than makes up for with brazen ignorance anda disturbing ability to stand firm even in the face of overwhelming facts.

 

The standard markings of a thrice-inbred half-wit troglodyte.

 

Heil!

 

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I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

[Guest Ikhnaton]

listen up!

 

stick with the topic at hand, and lay off the personal insults.

 

you wanna know what to use to edit OB1? do you own damn research. calling Kurgan irresponsible or whetever is not going to somehow squeeze information out of him. Kurgan is NOT responsible for the way you spend your money. Even if he says "YES YOU MUST BUY THIS PRODUCT", it is your decision in the end, and he isn't forcing you to do anything. If you don't want to spend the money on 3DMax or whatever it is, do what other cheapskates do and find a way around it. Isn't that what editing is all about? Finding a better way to do things?

[Guest Argath]

Kurgan is propagating a lie. He's encouraging people to purchase a program that won't even be compatible with the game's content, let alone required to edit it. If deceiving people with completely false suggestions is not irresponsible, I'd be interested to hear how you define "responsibility".

 

I don't think anyone wants to squeeze any more information out of Kurgan by insulting him. Considering the majority of this thread is dedicated to correcting his misinformation, I'd be a lot happier if he'd cease commenting at all. He doesn't take the time to confirm his information before claiming it's absolutely correct and arguing with anyone who points out that he's wrong; that kind of behavior is unacceptable under any circumstances, especially for a staff member of a major community site.

 

Furthermore, I'd suggest you review the entire thread before chastising me and the others who take exception to the spreading of false information. The issue is not over whether anyone is too niggardly to purchase 3DS Max or not, it's about Kurgan encouraging the purchase of a program that will do absolutely nothing.

 

[This message has been edited by Argath (edited June 26, 2000).]

[Guest dreddnott]

Ikhnaton, you and Kurgan are ignorant, illiterate, irresponsible, and unable to grasp even the most simple concepts, let alone something as 'complex' as this topic. Have either of you considered a career in politics?

 

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I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.