The game cries and asks, "why did you make me crappy?" Light Reading!

[Nathan Wind]

wow, what a botched job on the patch. If the purpose of the patch was to set out and make a more balanced game, it failed right across the board. This patch has created the single worst thing to happen to the series: dun dun dun THE SUPER NINJA.

 

Let me say something about mp. i read that the it was balanced completely independently of the single player. The fact that this is even mentioned hints to a lot of work done on behalf of the game's dynamics.

 

so why mess with a good thing?

 

i guess as game play evolved, little nuances and exploits were going to be found out sooner or later. the previous version definitely has its faults, especially in the realm of lightsaber duels.

 

but for the most part, the game was relatively solid. that was my opinion at least until recently.

 

with enough game play (and i know for a fact i will be burning for how much game play this was for me) all glaring loop holes and exploits will be found.

 

despite the minor flaws of saber battle, there weren’t many problems within the balance of the system itself, save the exploit using the all mighty pull. this one force power destroys any semblance of balanced game play. however, it does not do this single handedly. many of the issues addressed in the patch were periphery of the major “pull” flaw, yet this exploit is more glaring then ever before, now that too much tweaking was done with the force powers.

 

now, personally, i know exactly where i would tweak the game in order for it to be balanced.

 

the key powers that needed to be tweaked were (get this) dark rage, and force protection, and maybe slightly tweaking the speed of drain.

 

You may ask, "what are you talking about nathan? your insane!"

 

and the answer has to do with the balance of, specifically, drain, pull and absorb.

 

(mind you, this all has to do with the old version, not this new... thing)

 

This all stems to the just fundamental flaws with the system as it was designed. When i looked at dark side multiplayer the first time, i got the distinct feeling that there was a force power missing from the ones available. That feeling just intensified after using grip. I loved the inclusion of dark rage, as it was a nice nod (though perhaps misapplied) to all the gunners. But there was still a feeling that there was something missing with the dark side, or at least the heavyhearted realization that lightning was a staple force power. It has got to be the most unintuitive easily shrugged off force power in the game, and its the only vanilla damage inducing power in the dark arsenal. Now, im not saying that a power like force destruction should be added, as there is no point in giving missiles to deer hunters. But thats where it the dark side stood, and looking at it, its still a relatively balanced line up of powers.

 

Some thoughts about force powers

 

Grip has only 3 uses. Placing people in pits, the "jedi cannon" that i have yet to see work effectively, and almost as an after thought, causing damage. Honestly, nerfing this power had no purpose, save that of making darkside even more unplayable. The counters are roughly, push, pull, and absorb. The other purpose of grip is to force people to put chits in counter forces, namely, push pull and absorb. (by god, thats almost intuitive)

 

Anyway, i am soooo loosing my train of thought, or at least the focus of my little speil.

 

pull to the ground/swipe. thats the reason the game is unbalanced, and the exploit of which, having known, ruins any chance of skilled, fun game play. the counters are absorb and drain, respectively. unfortunately with drain, the game can quickly degrade into a "who can drain who first" scenario where one person ends up dying and feeling cheated, or they run like hell, and usually die anyway. this then can become a case for the alternative, absorb. having known the exploit, this not only negates the cannon of the dark jedi arsenal, lightning, but in a pull/swipe fight dark jedi are all but done. this leaves light jedi to counter light jedi. wow. that just eliminates the viability of the darkside.

 

but does it have to?

 

Now your left with 2 lighties. What are the ways they can duke it out? Well obviously guns and sabers. The problem with guns was that they were resource heavy in terms of force use. Jumping around AND having to use absorb to counter pull/swipe depleted the mana pool very quickly. Having someone pulled to the ground involved being very close to them, which is obviously bad for gunners not to mention getting your gun yanked. Vs a saberist, its trouble, because of them not jumping and their ability to pull the gun out of your hand/pull you to the ground/kill you the moment absorb wears off.

 

In the reality of the previous version, that gunner scenario is impossible because of the FACT that absorb (at least in practice) is a force power used only for countering. Absorb in practice is done after the fact, to discourage darkies and counter a few choice spells. A gunner cannot leave it on the whole time. However pull is instant.

 

These facts alone show that a person has a better chance if they are a light side saberist rather than a light side gunner. Forget the dark side completely. (this is when playing with people who know the exploit mind you, not a room full of newbs with one elite who knows the exploit but is too busy painlessly using it on newbs)

 

The only semblance of a counter darkside has is drain, and, if it was tweaked to defend better against saberists, rage for gunners.

 

Thats fantasy.

 

The reality of the patch is that it now completely destroys any hope of redemption for the darkside in this “improved” version. The pull/swipe is supreme. The pull sets up a victim spread eagle and defenseless for a "move," and the "moves" have become all powerful. The back stab is a sick joke for (tragically) a joke of a stance. The back swipe for heavy is even worse as that stance is the only viable stance to fight "old school" in. Coupled with pull, there is not a happy darkie in the house.

 

Further more, the dark side has been thoroughly castrated in the new patch. There is no purpose, NO PURPOSE to crap up grip. it only succeeds in strengthening the light side on the Nar Shadda levels.

 

As for drain and heal, those are moot and pointless compared with the problems set by pull. I can see where people have problems with both, but those can be solved by tweaking dark rage to be more powerful (sabes more so than guns...?) have less activation cost, but with a shorter duration and a higher "force chit value." Absorb should also possibly drain the force pool at a higher rate, or better yet have a longer de activation delay. In a duel with a weakened darkie and weakened lightie, drain should be met with absorb resulting in nobody healing/ if lightie heals, not enough force power to activate absorb. Obviously accompanying this, drain would have to offer slightly more bang for its buck in terms of life, and not necessarily require the user to deplete both parties pools for marginal health. (I do like the old version of draining multiple people at the same time in ffa for lots of health though).

 

As for the changes that have been implemented, i see the majority as being a big mistake. Drain and Heal have totally been destroyed, drain way much more so than heal. There is no purpose to nerf these powers. The danger that drain posed when coupled with pull was enormous. But surely there could have been a better way to deal with that problem than to nerf drain completely.

 

 

On sabers, tweaking was needed. Personally, i feel that the addition of saber throw to nf matches was a good thing, however, in the current state of the game/ this patch, it was a terrible thing. DFA or whatever the kiddies called it, in my oppinion should have been left the way it was (barring the easy, any swing access). The counter to it should be the saber toss. BUT the saber toss should only be in a line AND (THIS IS A BIG ONE) should be block able like the single player. If a saber is thrown and it is blocked, it should be tossed away, like in SP saber fights. That would leave it open to counter attacks and not degrade duels into saber catching events.

 

On max/min damages, sabers still need serious tweaking, as the damage ratios are all screwy. There is no reason to be in any stance in an "old school" saber fight other than the heavy one. Light and medium swings are completely (and way to easily/frequently) blocked.

 

Personally, i think that the system for saber fights should be heavily modified. Blocking should require skill and aim, and parry’s should be more controlled.

 

The supped up moves are the worst thing to happen to this game. It encourages the one major exploit of the system, which is to pull someone down without a counter. Then they can just turn 180 and backstab them, or use the spin around move from the other two stances.

 

The super ninja.

 

Darkside players have no place in this version. Absorb SHOULD NOT BE INVISIBLE!

 

The move used to be used like a staring match, or a game of chicken. Now it is just a sucker punch at a bad magic show. Where it used to be a counter, now it is preventative. This is a big mistake! Dark has no counter to this. Drain is the would be candidate, but its been crippled, and frankly, wouldn’t do ****. There is no timing involved in drain, where as there could be in absorb, like knowing when they are injured.

 

I cant even begin to think about mind trick. It blows MY mind how ****ty those special moves are. Whereas a person would come out of mind trick once a saber is swung, a backstab leaves no time for reaction, just confusion and frustration.

 

Absorb should be shown!!!! I cannot stress this enough. For the love of balance, it needs to be shown. There is too much risk to be dark without it.

 

FINALLY, I WANT TO ADRESS THE ONE THING THAT I FEEL NEEDS TWEAKING MOST

 

Pull is without a adequate counter.

 

There should be an additional move available while on the ground. Like a LEG SWEEP. Not necessarily an offensive move, just a chance to block the follow up backstab or what have you. THIS WAS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IN 1.2, AND ITS GLARING IN 1.3.

 

A way to do this is to tweak with dark rage, so that some damage is taken from coming into contact with a person who has rage on. Or, that in rage, reaction/get up speed is increased. Something needs to allow dark a counterbalance, in whatever vague form, for the pull to the ground/finishing move combo. For light, I would say that protection needs to be tweaked.

 

Hell, with a better saber system, a player should be able to bring up their saber while on the ground and manually block the next move.

 

THE BEST SOLUTION IS PROBABLY TWEAKING PUSH THOUGH. Tweaking push so that if held down, several conc blasts go back to their “owner” would solve whiney saberists. If it somehow solves the pull/ supped up special move problem, all the better.

 

Maybe special moves like the backstab should only be allowed at the end of combos…

 

And what the hell happened to my ammo? I am a gunner for crying out loud. To solve all problems with bitchy whiney saberists, make absorb use the juice faster thus allowing gunners to be more vulnerable to pull and dark powers like lightning.

 

Pull needs to stay as it is, there just needs to be a balance somewhere else!!!!!!!!

 

 

Universal balance after all. I always say, the best counter to a punk ass absorb whoring (pre the ninja/stealth upgrade) light saberist, is a good conc blast to the face. There should always be a counter… be it using force, or requiring a person to abandon their “fight mode” of choice. Making the conc range limited while making the rocket ammo limited served the purpose beautifully. If pull was conscientiously being used, there shouldn’t be a problem…

 

Jesus, ive been playing this game 8 hours a day for the last 2 weeks. I need to not fail college… but that’s another story.

[BigHairyWookie]

Judging from the length of your post, it's repetive content, and the fact you play the game 8 hours per day, I've come to the following conclusion:

 

 

YOU'VE GOT WAY TOO MUCH FREE TIME ON YOUR HANDS!!!

 

 

Get yourself a girlfriend or something. Breathe fresh air for once in your life. Get laid for the first time*. This is just a game, not way of life. Learn to adapt to the changes or go play something else. Jesus...you patch whining geeks are worse than trekkies.

 

 

Raven, you have my sympathies...

 

 

 

 

*whacking off to that poster of Natalie Portman on the wall in your dorm room does not constitute "getting laid".

[Spider AL]

Get yourself a girlfriend or something. Breathe fresh air for once in your life. Get laid for the first time

 

And BigHairy, why don't you post something worthy of an adult for a change? If the best you can do in response to someone's concerns re: the patch is to say

 

"uuhhh... Ur a NERRRD!" then you have no place in civilised online society. Kthxbye.

[Nathan Wind]

my girlfriend died two weeks ago. her last words were, "get good at jk2 mp and avenge my death." that 89 plymouth sundance will never know what hit it.

[Nathan Wind]

ugh, the more i think about v03, the more it disgusts me.

 

if force powers were slightly tweaked, there would be no problem with unbalances in 02.

 

i cannot believe how many supporters there are for .03.

 

if anyone fails to see the glaring problems with it, then they have obviously been playing sub-par opponents.

 

i mean, darkside is completely impotent. surely that want intended?

[Nathan Wind]

the patch is terrible, but the supporters are infuriating. i will personally make an in-depth, step by step way of balancing this game. this madness must end.

[Spider AL]

There are childish members in each camp, Nathan. But, I agree with you that those who are childish in the opposing camp, are indeed infuriating.

 

And I shall join you in your quest! Here comes the carefully thought out brigade of fixes!

 

/me trundles off to his workroom

[The Blind Jedi]

Quick! Someone call George Lucas! Someone ask HIM what he intended for the Jedi! When in doubt, go to the man who created it. If he pulls a "Will Shatner" and tells us all to "Get a life!", then we'll roll over, on our own sabers, and start from scratch. Otherwise, let the grand creator of the Jedi Master decide the fate of all Jedi, light or dark & toasty.

 

*TBJ hands AL a staple remover and asks, "How'd THAT happen???" *laugh* "Looks painful."

[Nathan Wind]

I am without a retort. Your mastery of sarcastic sci-fi nerd references and all around superior intergalactic wit are without equal! Who knew what i said about game play intent on a response forum could so easily be taken out of context, and used against me in a colorful and witty nerd analogy? I sure didnt! I really do feel like a nerd now! Mr. Jedi, you have shown who the dork really is. and with all your wit, you didnt even need to argue any of my points, with which you have previously disagreed. I guess i should just do as another poster suggested and learn to unlearn, relearn, and tolerate the game as it was meant to be played. in any case, you sure are on fire! ...would that make you a toasty jedi?

[Spider AL]

*TBJ hands AL a staple remover and asks, "How'd THAT happen???" *laugh* "Looks painful."

 

Do ties normally feel pain? Or were you presuming that I'd stapled a... portion of my anatomy to the workstation?

 

If I had stapled something unmentionable to the desk, I wouldn't be restricted in any way. I'd have about a three yard radius range of motion.

 

/me hands TBJ a pair of tweezers

 

That's for you!

[The Blind Jedi]

Ouch! Yeah, I guess I AM a toasty jedi now. Yeesh. Some people take games too seriously.

 

As for the staples, no such luck. at worst, I imagined industrial stables thru the hands to the desk. (Don't have to wear ties, so I guess I don't give them much thought.) Heck, I was just trying to be friendly....

 

I won't even approach the tweezers comment. I think it was uncalled for. I would rather call a truce and be friends. No ill will was ever intended.

 

*TBJ lowers his saber and puts it away.*

 

I conceed to your sense of necessity to defend your views. After all, that IS what this forum is for, right?

 

After all, it's ONLY a game.

 

Honor and a swift saber to you all.

[Nathan Wind]

ugh... well cool.

 

im still mightily pissed about the patch though. 4 minor tweaks or 8 major ones would have balanced the game. raven picked wrong.

[The Blind Jedi]

Nathan,

 

I'm glad we can get past the bickering now. What say we start a constructive thread outlining our suggestions for the next patch, (which we can be fairly confident will come, since Raven has said, quite openly, that there are still issues to address,) in hope that we can positively impact the outcome of 1.04. If we can be positively constructive, we can hopefully get the attention of the fine people at Raven.

 

Once we have a list of suggestions, let's start a poll thread so users can vote yay or nay on the most common/popular/logical suggestions. Let's author this jointly, clearly, and constructively. It'll be easier for the developers to see it clearly than try to weed through tons of forums filled with vague complaints or outright flames.

[Nathan Wind]

games can cry after all

[<>Phant0m<>]

I agree with alot uve said Nathan, and i think that ive had less and less great epic films style saber fights since the patch was released

 

I do think the dark side must be made more destructive and deadly, as the light side side could do with a few tweaks also.

 

But most of all, i think the saber and its functionality should be considered above all else, as this is the main attraction for alot of people.

 

The saber should be made a hard weapon 2 master, but once mastered should overcome all others with ease, only then will we see true epic saber fights that last for 5 minutes or more.

 

We should start putting ideas forward...

[Nathan Wind]

jk1 was my favorite game for one reason. epic gun battles. the skill and depth of the gun play, i felt, was unbeatten.

 

untill jo.

 

i was salavating over the realease of this game, and it surpassed my expectations.

 

but the new version is terrible. it makes gunners impotent.

thats the whole reason i bought this game.

 

but what made v02 soo good was balance. guns werent impotent, and saberists could always be level with the best of gunners if they had the skill.

 

v03 lets newbs be on par with expert gunners. thats not right

[Nathan Wind]

i hope raven reads this