New God Thread

[Guest theahnfahn]

Oh, and just to let everyone know, the file turned out to be just short of a million characters - no spaces, and just short of 200,000 words. That is quite a feat! I'd just like to thank this free service for allowing it to happen.

[Guest Nodrin King]

Hey, anybody heard from Zoom Rabbit lately? The latest post I saw was 5 Feb. YO ZOOMER, YOU OK?

 

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Paint a 3 on the side and I'll drive it!!!

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

One thing I see in Vaq's post I forgot to respond to.

 

Vaquel, you seem to be saying that when one is raised a certain way.. they are basically "brainwashed" to accept blindy a certain worldview (and that this worldview is somehow inherently wrong or bad).

 

I say the worldview part is ingrained, we can't change that, but the rest we can. Our point of view will always be the same, barring lobotomy or amnesia. We'll always be coming back from where we came from. We'll always be seeing things in the language and symbology we were brought up with. Still, we have freedom to modify this, and to add to it. Otherwise, we couldn't be having these arguments. We'd ALL be brainwashed and our minds would never change.

 

Otherwise, how could people like you "break free" as you have put it, from your upbringing?

 

You seem to be distinguishing between people who see as inferior (the "sheep") who believe what they are brought up to believe, and thus they refuse to think for themselves (they are irrational, robots, parrots, sheep, whatever).. and the superiors (people like you who "rebel" or "break free" from the values you were brought up with and "think for yourself."

 

I ask you, if the values you were brought up with were correct, would it be better to reject them in favor of something you came up with on your own? Is the act of intellectual rebellion more important than the truth? I'm just being hypothetical here.

 

Who is to say your upbringing is always wrong?

 

I'm not saying don't question what you are taught, or believe everything you read or hear from your superiors. Far from it. I encourage people to question everything.

 

The thing is, it's up to us to decide what to accept, and if we wish to accept what we're taught, THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE. We have just as much right to an opinion, and we're just as intelligent as anyone else.

 

You can question your beliefs, and still end up accepting them. Did you consider that?

 

I guess you come off as sounding like we must always assume that what other people tell is is a lie, or that they are trying to merely mind-control us, thus we have to invent the whole universe ourselves.

 

I'm saying, listen to what you're taught, etc. When you come to the age of reason or whenever you want to "think for yourself" (or whatever you call it), go ahead and question what you have learned.

 

Think for "yourself."

 

You have three choices, now. Accept what you were taught, reject it, or modify it.

 

Now, I suggest people make good decisions based on reason, logic, and evidence to the best of their ability.

 

What you seem to be suggesting is that we must always reject outside knowledge, that I disagree with. And I object to your condescendning attitude towards other people who happen not to be subjective nihilists.

 

I'm not a sheep, I'm not a blind believer, I'm not mind controlled, brain washed, "screwed" or duped, or whatever you want to call it. Sure I'm influenced by everyone I've ever known in my entire life, but that's part of being human. Don't get too full of yourself just because you changed your mind once. We all do that.

 

I'm not trying to offend anybody either, and maybe you're not conciously doing it, but when you start using labels to slander other people's opinions.. it causes other people to become defensive (just letting you know). It's natural. If you want them to be open, then don't be so judgemental.

 

Now, how'se that for a response? ; )

 

Kurgan

[Guest Conor]

He's a regular at roguesquadron.net too and he hasn't shown up lately. I hope he is just busy or having computer troubles.

 

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"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."

-St. Francis of Assisi

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

Btw, to mop up some other stuff.

 

Vaq, I think I know what you're trying to say, the trouble is you come off sounding all wrong (as I stated in my previous post).

 

As to the angels quote, I think most people associate Angels with good, obedient servants of God, superior to us mostly.

 

That is what I think Jefferson meant, that if we all knew God existed and served him with perfect loyalty, we wouldn't need laws, because we'd already be doing what was right.

 

As to there being no government in heaven, well I can't answer that as I've never been there, but I could assume there wouldn't have to be, because the rules would be clear and those there would simply follow them, there would be no if's and's or but's, it just would work.

 

Lucifer is another problem. This would imply angels have free will like us. I've heard some theorize that after Lucifer's fall, angels forfeited the right to free will, but I dunno about that. What it comes down it is that if you don't have free will, and you're just programmed to be good, it's not as admirable as if you can choose to do good or evil, but do good, because it's the right thing to do. I think that is where the angels fit in. I don't see how you could consciously reject God if you were to see him in all his glory, but I dunno.

 

And as to the whole "sheep" thing again. How do you know that we haven't done what you've done and searched and pondered, and questioned, and researched, and put through the "logic tester" all our beliefs? I think you assume that if we were to act as smart as you, we'd all become just like you and believe the same things. I don't think you can make that assumption.

 

I've searched, I'm still searching. What I've told you isn't a needle I'm being threaded by somebody else. It's me talking, not someone controlling me (unless you believe in fate!). What I say, is what I've come up with. You're not the first one to challenge your upbringing, and you won't be the last.

 

Nobody is telling you what to believe, I am only challenging what you say, because to me, it sounds like you aren't being totally clear, or you're speaking with certain assumptions that have no basis in fact. Again, that's my impression. It takes awhile to sift through all the material you've posted here. ; )

 

Kurgan

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

Ack, yet another addendum to my post...

 

I know more about Christianity, but every religion that can call itself a religion is based on one thing: God

 

This is not true, actually.

 

Many religions are not based on God, (or gods). Confucianism is a religion, and it believes in a transcendant morality (they call it "the mandate of heaven" but they do not believe in God or gods). Most sects of Buddhism say nothing of the gods, and in fact many deny their existence. They are not necesarry, and we might as well be talking about dragons or ghosts. They don't affect the human condition, whether they exist or not.

 

God-centered religions are not the only ones.

 

Atheist religions exist, and what we think of as "Atheism" itself is based on belief (in the principles of humanism, their own theories of morality, and the non-existence of God and miracles).

 

Then there are pantheistic religions that believe in an oversoul, or that teaches that we are all "gods." These types do not recognize personal deities in the same way that God-centered religions do.

 

A more proper defintion of religion would be "a system of belief." Belief being something that is not obviously objectively proven by whatever means at hand. It is a "hunch" or a "theory." That is what belief is. It may be blind belief, or it may be supported by facts and even compelling evidence, but it is not proven beyond all doubt.

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited February 29, 2000).]

[Guest Conor]

Thanks for the file TAF.

 

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"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."

-St. Francis of Assisi

[Guest Vaquel]

I wasn't going to come back here anymore, mainly because I was just talking myself into a deeper hole, and wasn't being understood the way I intended, but my curiosity got the better of me.

 

Kurgan, you are right in a lot of what you say, at least I think so. And I can agree with you without changing my mind in the least bit. I came off as something I wasn't, and when I spoke strongly to make a point, I sounded judgemental and thick-headed. I just am unable to get my ideas across clearly, period. It's something I'll work on, and when I can do it successfully I'll clear this whole mess up.

 

Until then, I'll be working on it, and practicing now and then to see if you get what I was trying to say. But no matter how much I try to clear up what I've already said as it stands, I'm just adding clear water to mud, and it won't ever make sense. When I have the time, energy, and proper mindset, I will tackle it all anew.

 

As for now, I have a logic test tomarrow and I haven't studied as well as I should have. I need all the rest I can get.

 

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Vaquel

 

"You cannot defeat me, only destroy me; and I will NOT be destroyed."

[Guest Kurgan]

Oops. ; )

 

Yeah, you had me convinced you were a nihilist Zen Buddhist.

 

Good luck! Come back when you think you've got it figured out.

 

Oh, to anyone who cares, that article by that Muslim guy claiming to refute the bible and all of Christianity.. I found a marvelous rebuttal to it on another site ( www.answering-islam.org ) While the site does contain some factual errors about the canon of scripture, and over simplifies the "Q" gospel (which is supported by evidence, although it is still hypothetical, and its existence is still up to debate), and there are some typos on many pages, it does present the Muslim writer's (sorry, I forget how to spell his name) arguments and answers them intelligently.

 

doesgodexist.org Was finally updated recently. Plus I found another site with some more "Does God Exist" stuff, which I haven't read all of it, but it might be worth something:

 

http://www.marshill.org/Apologetics%20Pages/Cosmos_and_Creator.htm

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited March 01, 2000).]

[Guest Vaquel]

A nihilistic Zen Buddhist, eh?

 

::chuckles, reads over previous posts::

 

Perhaps you got buddhist from my threat to join an order of monks if I don't get what I want out of life, heheh.

 

I was very bitter as well, I talked a lot about suffering, determination to 'escape'.

 

I also made it sound like I was transformed in a single turning, I 'shook off my childhood ignorance' and became the first to see the 'real truth'. This is not so, it took a looong time, and I may not be any better off than my neighbor, but (s)he nor I know about the other, so we must learn. I'm still changing, and I haven't split off from my old self, my roots, completely. There's more inside me still than I care to admit, but I must be brutally honest with myself. The will to live, to take all life as precious, to think of suicide as a mortal sin, to believe in God... it's all still there, and more.

 

I also said God is the only thing I can believe in (as far as religion goes), and if this life is for nothing, then my expectations will be met. Is this the nihilism? Perhaps part of it. This is one of the points I wanted to speak of strongly, ended up skewing it. Even pessimists think there is meaning in the universe, they just don't much like it. Am I a pessimist? Sometimes, it all depends. I was being negative here, expecting the worst, hoping for the best. Has an odd sort of optimism in there, too.

 

Ok, as I read more, this is just getting worse. I see how you got the 'I am all-wise and you are all sheep' concept. I also had flashes where I was just inspired to right something down because it interested me, that it MIGHT be possible, but I was so convincing as I wrote it that it sounded like I thought it was fact. More of the 'speak strongly to get point across' bit, I guess it doesn't work. Good flamebait, tho!

 

I came across as damning all religions, as labeling anyone who still believes as they were raised as blind fools. ::sigh:: I used really bad examples, which made sense to me, but dealt with things that only confuse people's perception of who I am. No, I am just going to go through what you already know until I can sum all this up, explaining it is, as I said, adding clear water to mud.

 

Oh boy, I make everyone but me sound like weak dummies who had no choice but to be wrong in whatever they did. By contrast I sound strong, smart, and always right. Sometimes it just pays to keep one's mouth shut, even when what you have to say you think is totally reasonable. No matter how you intend it, chances of people seeing it the same way are almost nil. The irony of my life.

 

Once you guys began taking offense, and hating me, you probably breezed past my explainations (apologies?) that tried to clear up the murk I just said. I guess I just put too much into it to just delete it, instead trying to post a purifier at the end.

 

More like they sounded like little jests in mockery that said "oh now that you know the real truth, you can go back to your ignorance if it makes you feel better." Of course, I am only trying to read it like I think some of you might have, by what you've posted. It makes all the difference in the world, how you read it.

 

Some of this I admit came from logic class, like a cry begging for me to test my critical thinking skills, and see if I could make the matter purely one of knowable/unknowable fact. Guess religion and faith isn't the best place to start, eh? LOL, don't answer that. What I would give to be able to take all I've said back and only post the good stuff (yes, there IS some good stuff in there but it's hiding in all the crap!) Had those been the only words posted I might have done more good than harm here ::sigh::. Ok, I don't want your pity (more like your understanding), so don't feel sorry for me.

 

Here's my best effort:

 

I believe in God.

 

I think life and existence has meaning and value.

 

I am more fascinated with other people than anything else in life.

 

I can fight if I must, but I'd rather come to a peaceful understanding.

 

I am not a Buddhist.

 

I am not Zen anything, although I think it is a cool word.

 

I am not nihilistic, but at times I can be very cynical, pessimistic, (depressed, confused, in despair, etc.).

 

I do not look down on people unless they prove to me that they are scum.

 

I do not look up to people unless they prove to me they're worthy.

 

I hate misunderstandings, often because I find myself misunderstood.

 

I can see the truth as clear as day and still be unable to put it into words.

 

I am a good, caring person, who holds high standards and is very moral, though sometimes driven past the brink of sanity.

 

I do not intentionally commit sin, but I will accept responsibility for my actions.

 

I am very passionate and creative, and it often gets in the way of clear interpretation of reality, I live in my own fantastic world.

 

I've lost a lot in life, and I've worked hard for what I can still call my own.

 

If I admitted to myself that others have suffered worse than I have, I may very well become nihilistic, because I can't imagine reality as being that awful and still believe in God.

 

Knowing that others have suffered much more than myself, I have flashes of beliefs that God created us for some intention or purpose that we failed repeatedly to live up to, and that life still goes on here long after He abandoned us for no reason other than He could not bring Himself to destroy something He created in the first place... something that didn't ask to be given life, but was anyway. Suffering is much, much worse than destruction, in His mercy He would have destroyed us long before now. Some think He is waiting for man to redeem himself of his own accord, and thus must not show signs of His presence as in biblical times. He already wrote the book of Revelations, so is He hoping against hope? Some say suffering is good, indeed it is needed for balance; but I can show you suffering that has no meaning, no purpose, no explaination, no right to exist, and yet it does. This, of course, is the Devil's doing... the scapegoat of millions of people. Oh, perhaps it is, and God lets it be so to test us, but that does not save Him from all blame, does not wash His hands of the matter in my eyes. God would thus be cruel in my eyes. I don't care how much Jesus suffered during His stay on Earth as a human, that does not justify putting countless people through the same thing over and over again, and even if it did, it is still cruel. I wasn't taught that God was cruel. I really don't want to admit that the God I grew up knowing doesn't exist. So I go back up to the above line, and in my posts I make it sound like I have suffered more than anyone, and received understanding from it that only that degree of suffering could bring. And yet I have flashes where I 'know' the God I grew up believing in doesn't really exist.

 

This last part, I'm going to have to go over again, please respond somehow to help me with it if you can, I'd really appreciate it.

 

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Vaquel

 

"You cannot defeat me, only destroy me; and I will NOT be destroyed."

[Guest wizzywig]

Vaquel--

 

Just wanted to say hi, and commend you on the clarity and thoughtfulness of your last post. I gained a much different impression of what you were trying to say this time around. Wish I had more time to stay and interact with the thoughts and experiences you expressed, but I'm under a serious deadline crunch...

 

I wish you well.

 

--wiz

 

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

Oh btw, I should point out that "nihilism" probably means different things to different people. When I use the word, I'm referring to the dictionary definition which is "somebody who rejects traditional views of religion or morality."

 

So in theory, if all the nihilists get together and agree on certain things, then they get in power and convince everybody to agree with it, it won't be nihilism anymore (because it will thus become tradition).

 

So in that sense it could be good or bad.

 

 

Vaquel:

I appreciate your trying to explain your beliefs to us folks who don't understand (perhaps all of us?). I'm not saying you ARE a hateful person (I certainly don't hate you), but only that your previous posts came across as, to put it quite bluntly "holier-than-thou". If this was not your intention (as you say) then that's fine, I'm not judging you.

 

Of course, if you really do believe that you are superior to the rest of us, and that we in fact are delusional (which might be possible, you never know) then you can go ahead and say it, don't worry about offending us. If you honestly believe that, that's your belief, and we can't tell you what to believe in. However, you'll probably get alot of flames (or close to it) for that kind of attitude, mostly because everyone else is bound to disagree strongly. ; )

But, if you're interested in the truth more than simply our approval, then you should have the right to say what you think.

 

The Buddhist stuff came about, as you say from those, and the basic suggestion that the "middle path" is the way (between right and wrong, always see both sides equally, etc). Of course belief in a personal God, etc kind of nullifies Zen and alot of other types of Buddhism. I called you a nihilist because it appeared you were trying to reject not only the beliefs you grew up with, but indeed all traditional religious/moral values, except the ones that you fancied you liked. I would also tend to lump people like Zoom Rabbit into this category (however I consider him more of a Zen Buddhist than you.. and if I'm utterly wrong about him, let him speak on his behalf! ; )).

 

Again, since you say that's not your intention, I applaud your effort to explain with more coherency and less judgement, your positions. Thanks. ; )

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited March 03, 2000).]