Ten Tigers Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Im not just trolling here either. Hear me out.... While Raven has been busy reducing the damage on sabers and nerfing every Force Power in the game, gun damage still remains the same. So they reduced the number of shots per ammodump. Big whoop. This does not confront me. I am still every bit as lethal I just need more ammo to kill the same ammount of Jedi/Sith. Ammo reduction is just something to worry about if you cant aim very well. I laugh at people who try to saber me now. Even with the Red style, the most damaging style in the game, I can still kill a Jedi in the time it takes him/her to swing the saber twice. In fact I cant WAIT for a Jedi to swing their saber at me. The moment they do their auto block goes down and thats when I unload my blaster in their face. And the plain simple truth is you can deal more damage faster with a blaster than with a saber. And it is exceptionaly painful to see a new player flailing around with their lightsaber as I keep about 8 feet away from them and pick them off at my leisure. As far as Force powers goes, the only thing I really worry about anymore is Lightning. It is the only thing that really has a chance against me and that needs to be at relatively close range. Absorb. LOL. All I need is Jump/Push/Pull all level 3 and Im a Happy Gilmore.... Anything other than that is just pleasant amenities. Id take Force Sight and/or Mind Trick over Absorb any day...Sometimes Grip will catch me off gaurd but that is only when I am low on health and space that fact off. Otherwise I just push out and start blasting while they recover. Pull really isnt that effective either as I keep my push/pull at level 3. And since I am always aiming at the person I never really have my weapon pulled from my hand. Push? Same same. In fact on MY end it is worse because when I push people, especially jumpers, and they fall any decent distance away from me, I dont need to spend time chasing them down with a lightsaber, much less turning around for a floorsweep. From the moment I push someone it is all trigger time baby... Now dont get me wrong. Im not whining about anything. In fact I kinda dig gunrunning. Going against all these Jedi and mopping up with the guns makes me feel like Boba Fett or some other uber-bountyhunter. And with the new Fett models, it's even better. What I am doing is pulling for all the Jedi and Saberers out there belive it or not. I really hope Raven reads this. I like the tweaking on the animations and the blocking. The saber locks own too. But by lowering the damage of both the Force Powers and the Lightsabers, it makes FFA games gun games. That is why I STILL support a system wide raising of saber damage, and Force wide bolstering of Force Powers. But at the same time, leave the weapon damage alone. In fact, up the Thermal Detonator damage to what the Det Packs do. But till then, Im a Bounty Hunter. All my saber is good for is when I run out of ammo, or the stylish finishing of a weakened victim... Discuss......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*T¥RANITH* Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 You're right, what I think should be done is this: Make sabers do damage according to the body area they hit, and how much of it they hit (ie if you move your saber all the way through their neck, they should die instantly) the fact that sabers would then be much more lethal should now be counteracted by making blocking a little more reliable (less random, and better at blocking idle sabers and also maybe a bit more directional). This would do a few things. First off, any one-hit-kill whores using stupid moves to rack up kills (DFA in 1.02, Backstab/sweep in 1.03) will be effectively nerfed. Also, gunners will be cut down like flies against a close-up lightsaber, as the only real effective defense against a saber is another saber or the force. Imo, all forces should be made more powerful, so that someone with lots of force against someone with lots of saber-skill should be on a par (as it is you NEED a good saber-offense/defense in a duel, where you should be able to only use powerful force, I mean, look at Darth Sideous in RotJ). Also, maybe include a gunnery system, similar to that of the saber offense/defense, by making the weapons more accurate and so forth (or not letting you use certain difficult-to-use weapons). This way gunners would not be able to completely own saber users by removing all saber skill points just to rack up force powers. Just my '2-cents' post any arguments about the points here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Tigers Posted May 22, 2002 Author Share Posted May 22, 2002 No arguements here. I find your reply a breath of fresh air. I was expecting a string of flames and noobs. I will probably get that too. Just give it time. I really like your idea of the whole hit location thing. And since individual body parts are already recognized via dismemberment I dont see where it would be that difficult. That way Lightsabers would be the lethal melee weapons they are supposed to be, yet if you dont polish up on your finesse you willl find a lot of your attacks blocked or your hits only doing grazing damage rather than the full monty. The only ensuing problem I see might be with guns being near useless. As I stated in my original post, the majority of the tactic is to get your opponent to swing his/her saber. This lowers their auto-block and allows you to hit with normal blaster fire. Which is the dilema because that is the way it should be. I guess the answer might be to raise gun damage SLIGHTLY. Otherwise we are stuck with the jedi deflecting or pushing everything back at the gunner. As much as people bitch about alt-repeater fire, it CAN be pushed back. The ONLY weapon fire I know of that cannot be either blocked or pushed back to sender is the EMP atl fire. Which is kool. Again a lot of people bitch about this too, but in my opinion it does piss poor damage. Im pretty good with centering the blast radius of the EMP and I usually run out of ammo before I kill anyone with it. Unless they are already hurt. But back to sabers. We think a lot alike. In addition to a damage hike I also support more blocking. Make it less random so when you concentrate on being defensive you are actually rewarded for your caution. Plus I think that tweaking the sabers collision detection will help this too. It seems that as it is, there is a damage arc rather than a point of contact. It is really noticeable with the red style. If someone swings a horizontal slash with the red style and you try to take advantage of the post swing, ie wait for the swing to start then attack the opening where the swing originated from, you will still be damaged by the swing. I notice this even more with jumping. I have jumped over peoples heads and have been hit/killed because they were mid swing, even though the saber never actually touched me. I crossed its "damage arc". It just seems like Raven needs to look at the BIG picture before releasing the next patch. They were so busy trying to cure everyones issue with saber combat that they nerfed it in comparison to guns. The same goes for Force Powers. Other than that, I am still pro 1.03 patch. I think it is a step in the right direction. It just needs to be tweaked more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamataKahn Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 All that needs to happen is Raven needs to make it so that when you are using a gun you can't use force powers. This game is based on Star Wars and the Jedi, when did you EVER see a Jedi use a blaster and the force at the same time???? Never! As long as a gunner doesn't use absorb I own him almost everytime. I usaully have no problems pulling the unblockable weapons from his hand, if he likes to pull/push I turn on absorb and rush not swinging but trying to kick him or just run into him with my saber and damage him that way. Bottom line is a gunner should not be able to use the force at all. It gives un unfair adavnatage coupled with the range of guns and just does not fit at all with the Star Wars universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamataKahn Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 And just to add this, in my experrience my Saber owns gunz when I play . When I play FFA, TFFA, & CTF I'm usually at the top of the scoreboard, and I NEVER use guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striderx2048 Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 guns+force owns saber+force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulless Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 After reading this and trying it i have come to the conclusion....your are right! People with guns actually forced me to get my guns out. Usually I go for the saber only matches and duke it out. But I went into a standerd FFA match to find that every person with a saber was getting the crap kicked out of them. So I joined the gun side. Don't get me wrong, i still love the saber battles, much more skill needed. But guns will always better the saber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamataKahn Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 As long as gunners don't use absorb I kick their asses. I only use the saber cuz if I wanted to use guns I'd play another shooter that has better weapons. I bought the game for the saber and force, which no other shooter has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con. Snake Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Kahn, I beleive there are other thread for bull****ting, and making yourself feel better. Please use one instead of threads not intended for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooglyMoogly Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 I'm still amazed that there are people that WANT to use guns in this game. I mean c'mon...we all know deep down that this is a Saber game...plain and simple. I have nothing against the guns since I play Saber only servers, but really...the things that set this game apart from the myriad of FPS's out there is the Saber and Force powers. Wanna deathmatch with guns?..play Q3 Want tension in your gun battles?...play CS Wanna play intense CTF?...play UT or better yet T2. Want to be a Jedi?...play JO - Saber only. You know it, I know it and Raven knows it...guns were added to the MP game to simply attract a few more players and to make other gaming modes (CTF) more viable. I'm glad you all enjoy the guns, but in my opinion there are more and better games for gun battles out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striderx2048 Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 then get more ppl to play jedivmerc mode and sabers still starting owning again. The flaw is people thinking this is the movies, where the jedis own the "mercs", the difference is the gunners in this game use the force also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoshi Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 i think that the new system is pretty unfair too. when it normally takes a minute or so to saber someone (if they're good) it takes a whole 2 seconds to just rocket them both or go and own them with alt-repeater fire. this makes the game kinda not as much of a challenge because guns are so much more powerful than sabres now. i think that there should be an increase in damage of sabres up to where it used to be and also a smaller blocking radius for sabre to sabre combat. this way it takes more skill to block and sabre battles dont last so long(i am also a supporter of manual blocking {against sabres only of course}because this would really separate the good players from the bad). also i think that blocking of blaster fire should be made better. i.e. at level 3 sabre block i think that you should block 100% level 2 maybe 80% or 75 or so and level 1 maybe 60-70. I have been playing many a time and i would have sabre block on level 3 and i would still take hits. as long as you are facing your opponent i think that you should be able to block 100%of the blaster fire. the nerfing of force powers also seems really unfair. i think that grip and drain have been nerfed to the point that it's almost useless to use them. drain wont even beat lightning now cause lightning deals more damage than drain absorbs. also absorb has been made into a godly skill which seems kinda unfair to me. i think that raven should revert absorb back to it's original force cost but keep the invisible aspect of it. also i think that when using grip, if you cant run then you should at least be able to use another force power on them at the same time. grip + push at the same time would be really nice (i know that you can kinda do this now if you just drop the person and then push rly fast but it's sometimes hard to do). anyways i hope that raven decides to balance things out again because as things are now they seem pretty unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Wind Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 bogus. i can always beat a gunner with a gun or a saber. because .03 is so flawed, people must be light to win. that makes gun fights much more of a pain in the ass because of uber-absorb. the fact that now, instead of a visual cue AND because of uber power, absorb was alterd in a way that helps gunners tremendiously, ala jk1. eg see canyon oasis ff. But because of ammo depletion, guns are neutered. a good saberist can wait you out. i could. then ill kill you. before, it was just more balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Wind Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 pull was your friend. im sure that pull will be neuterd too in the next version in another twisted and laughable attempt at finding a balance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamataKahn Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Originally posted by Con. Snake Kahn, I beleive there are other thread for bull****ting, and making yourself feel better. Please use one instead of threads not intended for it. I'm not bull****ting and I don't need a game to make myself feel better. I'll post what I want in whatever thread I feel like thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con. Snake Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 I'm not bull****ting Keep telling yourself that lie, someday you'll truly believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamataKahn Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Originally posted by Con. Snake Keep telling yourself that lie, someday you'll truly believe it. Put your money where your mouth is biatch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Tigers Posted May 22, 2002 Author Share Posted May 22, 2002 I think a lot of people here are missing the point. Contrary to popular opinion, lightsabers did not dominate the movies. And if they did it was because it was a movie and the good guys are supposed to win. The guns were put in for extra atmosphere. The multiplayer gun runner does not represent Joe Stormtrooper. Every gunrunner represents the elite soldier. The best Bounty Hunter. At least in my opinion. I keep hearing people say if you want a gun game go play something else. But in my opinion that is about a retarded statement. Akin to saying "If you dont want to play Ken or Ryu then Streetfighter is not for you". I swear, people seem to forget that this game in not official canon. It doesnt HAVE to perfectly fit in with the original trilogy. So here is MY retort. If you are looking for a weapon only game, go play Soul Calubur. I kind of like the diversity of JKII. I just wish the Force Powers and Sabers would be brought up to snuff. I dont think removing force powers from gunners is a viable solution either. Not without giving them some kind of compensation. Otherwise you have the whole Jedi vs. Merc thing. Let's forget anything fancy like a grappling hook or a jet pack. Simply starting with a full invintory or the ability to jump with the equivalent of a level one force jump, and the ability to roll. Especialy the ability to shoot while rolling side to side, just not forward or backwards. Just those 3 basic things would make for a fairly balanced Jedi/Merc game. Remember, more options, not less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trannyn Covnant Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 Acctually, It all depends on who your fighting. If someone is extremely great at split second movement in JK2 he can easily dodge the blasts from the guns and get in close and use his saber. But if someone with a lightsaber is going up with a person whos a great shot with a blaster then the jedi may lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Tigers Posted May 23, 2002 Author Share Posted May 23, 2002 Originally posted by Nathan Wind bogus. i can always beat a gunner with a gun or a saber. because .03 is so flawed, people must be light to win. that makes gun fights much more of a pain in the ass because of uber-absorb. the fact that now, instead of a visual cue AND because of uber power, absorb was alterd in a way that helps gunners tremendiously, ala jk1. eg see canyon oasis ff. But because of ammo depletion, guns are neutered. a good saberist can wait you out. i could. then ill kill you. before, it was just more balanced. Sorry, unless you are going to wait forever, you have to swing that saber sometimes. It sounds like you didnt even read the post, and are just letting your ego do the talking now. Ammo depletion didnt neuter guns. Only for people with a bad aim. The damage is still the same. You sound like most saberists I kill. You think I would approach the fight like a saber fight. Then b!tch when you get fragged. Wait me out and kill me. Sounds like you put a LOT of thought into that thar strategy. But Ill be nice and give you what seems to be a much needed hint. Try to catch me before I collect a bunch of weapons. Early in my spawn is a good time for that. Absorb. LOL. All I need is Jump/Push/Pull all level 3 and Im a Happy Gilmore.... Anything other than that is just pleasant amenities. Id take Force Sight and/or Mind Trick over Absorb any day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Tigers Posted May 23, 2002 Author Share Posted May 23, 2002 Originally posted by Trannyn Covnant Acctually, It all depends on who your fighting. If someone is extremely great at split second movement in JK2 he can easily dodge the blasts from the guns and get in close and use his saber. But if someone with a lightsaber is going up with a person whos a great shot with a blaster then the jedi may lose. Funny you should mention that. Cause it was actually all the saber training that I did that made me a good shot as a gunner. Which still needs work I will admit, I put more time into the saber than the gun. But because of that I know the range of all three stances and when they are vulnerable. Know thy enemy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtrixman Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 the biggest problem i have witht he game now is that the damage done by sabers is so low that everyone is doing the pull+ back stab/swing just to kill people. more than one occasion i see players run into a fight backwards hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowen Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 I think sabre's are way cooler than guns but Yeah....guns do own sabre's. I too hope that Raven heeds this....this game is for us anyway...so....It is logical to assume that if you were up against someone with a sabre and the other person had a gun and you were hit with a sabre in the neck, completely through the torso etc....then they should die instantly. That would be an added bonus if they would incorporate dismemberment into the multiplayer game other than the hand being cut off. It could be turned off by default of course and there still does not have to be blood as a lightsabre wound would cauterize immediately. The most important thing would be to increase the sabre strength....it should honestly be able to deflect most weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Tigers Posted May 23, 2002 Author Share Posted May 23, 2002 Originally posted by Bowen I think sabre's are way cooler than guns but Yeah....guns do own sabre's. I too hope that Raven heeds this....this game is for us anyway...so....It is logical to assume that if you were up against someone with a sabre and the other person had a gun and you were hit with a sabre in the neck, completely through the torso etc....then they should die instantly. That would be an added bonus if they would incorporate dismemberment into the multiplayer game other than the hand being cut off. It could be turned off by default of course and there still does not have to be blood as a lightsabre wound would cauterize immediately. The most important thing would be to increase the sabre strength....it should honestly be able to deflect most weapons. Agreed. But I do think that you should be vulnerable to back attacks without force sight. And of course you should be vulnerable when attacking or using the force. All and all they should make lethal sabers an option like no-force, and saber-only. That way people who are happy with low damage sabers wont get raped. More options yo'.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Wind Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 i was going to come up with a long, well thought out, in depth response to your post but i was stopped in my tracks. your credablity with me has taken a nose dive. if you are not a coward and a hypocrit (and i really really do not believe that you are), you will post the following at the top of your original post: Absorb. LOL. All I need is Jump/Push/Pull all level 3 and Im a Happy Gilmore.... Anything other than that is just pleasant amenities. Id take Force Sight and/or Mind Trick over Absorb any day... ****posted at the request of Nathan Wind If you do that, i have much untarnished respect for you and i will be happy to talk more about the questionable value of guns in v1.03. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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