Radient Missing features? What I miss from "Moray"

[Derisor]

BEfore gettign into mapping, I did allot of work with Moray. It is a shareware modelling program for a raytracer called Povray. I really miss some features out of it so maybe I can list them and see iy ou all can tell me if its in JK2radient or GTK radient and if so, where.

 

A) Constructive solid geometry. unions, differences, merges. What Id like to do is create brushes or curves, title them "tunnel" and then be able to use them as a single unit building block.

 

B) Levels. In Moray, the use can specify that a group of objects areo n level .. say 5. This is a virtual level, no reference in 3d space. What this allows me to do is HIDE everything that is not on level 5 and thus work on one small part of the model without interference clicking on other objects around it. If you have a very large model, this can be essential.

 

C) Exporting to JK2radient from Moray. This would be awesome. If anyone knows how to do it. It would be a great way to create models without blowing thousands on 3ds or Maya.

 

D) Tree browser for CSG. Tells you the structure of objects and their componets.

 

E) Editing an object's dimensions numerically. If I want an object to be exactly 64 units wide in Moray, I can type 64 into the y dimesion of them odel. Similarly I can move an object numerically as well.

 

F) Moving and object when zoomed out. GRRRRRRR .... I keep resizing my brushes when I want to move them. A brush gets created out in the middle of noweherei nthe z dimension because I created it in the XY overview. I like to use 1 unit walls but now I have to zoom in and move, pan, move, pan, move pan ... GRRRR . If I try to do it zoomed out, I end up resizing the brush instead.

 

 

Moray site: http://www.stmuc.com/moray/

[RichDiesal]

Well you see, that's where the differences between mapping and modelling programs become apparent.

 

A) Modelling programs use polygons while mapping programs (in this engine anyway) use brushes. Polygons can be merged, split, recombined, and a whole host of other things. Brushes can't.

 

You can actually make a single unit building block in a roundabout fashion. Create all the brushes and curves you want to be your tunnel, then select them all and make them into a func_group. It has no effect on your compiled map, but it makes your editing a lot easier, as you can now select all those brushes at once.

 

B) Levels... yes, that would be useful. No argument there.

 

C) You can't export any Q3A-based MAP to any 3d Modelling program. It just can't be done. Plus I'm not sure why you'd want to... IMO, a prefab (made in Radiant) is much more useful than a model, since you can actually edit the prefab in Radiant itself. Why would you want to export brushes to a 3d modeller and then import them back in as an uneditable md3? Maybe you see a use for it that I don't.

 

D) I don't see why that's necessary, since you can just pull brushes apart and look yourself.

 

E) You can't do it by the numbers, but it's still really easy to do... just drag your brush to, say, 4 units wide (press the Q Key). Then you can change the grid to 4 unit increments and drag it where you want it, always snapping to the grid... it's actually much more time-efficient than editing the numbers directly, once you get the hang of it.

 

F) Don't use 1-unit thick walls except when absolutely necessary, and that won't happen. Or better yet, resize them to move them (which is what I do). As in, create your 1-unit thick wall, resize it to 65 units while you move it (1 grid jump with grid size 7), and then resize it back. Takes very little time and effort - and makes it easy to drag.

 

Anything else?

[Derisor]

A) Thanks for the tips on the func group.

 

B) Sigh. I want to make a huge map and this is going to be painful without levels.

 

C) No no, I mean if I create a model in Moray for a lamp post or something, Id like to be able to export it. I dont have 3 grand to blow for 3d Studio Max. Maybe If I knew the format of the model files as used in JK, then I could write an exporter.

 

D) Blah. Tree views rock.

 

E) Not if you have an object that is way the **** across the map and want to move it 30k units. What a ... pardon the pun ... drag.

 

F) Still its irritating. I should have to double click on the brush or something to get to edit the brush. Would be much more ocnvenient.

 

Generally I think JKradient is a decent program but it falls short in usability. Allot of features for workign with hundreds of objects o nthe same map are missing. Id really like to make a map that I would clal the sewers of bespin, but if it is truly a labrynth then the models are going to overlap and it is going to be a royal pain.

[RichDiesal]

You wouldn't need any models. You should never overlap anything anyway.

 

And your map is 30k units wide? That's damn huge.

 

Radiant was also designed with level size in mind... you don't want any individual map to be too big, or else the player will hafta sit there for 5 minutes waiting for it to load. It's actually better to create it in only semi-big chunks, and make them seperate maps. Notice that's how Raven did it in SP.

 

And since you can't use Moray and don't want to pay a lot, get the free version of 3DSMax called GMAX. Works just about the same (though without most of the "power features")

 

[simarilius]

rich, if i read him right hes meaning the objects will overlap in the views, making life confusing as hell. and i agree with him to an extent. what we could do with are vis groups like in worldcraft so you can hide stuff by predefined (and potentially overlapping) groups.

 

 

btw derisor, if you want to hide stuff, hit h, to get it all back hit shift h couple that with func groups and its an improvement, not great, but an improvement

 

and if your serious about writing a convertor, there are details of the md3 model format here : http://www.icculus.org/homepages/phaethon/q3/formats/md3format.html

good luck

[Xcom]

Originally posted by RichDiesal

C) You can't export any Q3A-based MAP to any 3d Modelling program. It just can't be done. Plus I'm not sure why you'd want to... IMO, a prefab (made in Radiant) is much more useful than a model, since you can actually edit the prefab in Radiant itself. Why would you want to export brushes to a 3d modeller and then import them back in as an uneditable md3? Maybe you see a use for it that I don't.

 

Well, you can, actually. (discovered this not so long ago). sof2map.exe has the option to convert map file (or bsp file) to a lightwave object. Tested it and it works. LOL.

sof2map -lwo mapname.map will produce mapname.lwo which you can open in Lightwave or any other 3d modelling program which supports lwo format.

[RichDiesal]

Wow... that's actually rather impressive, lol. But my question to you is WHY?

 

And ahh, overlapping in 2D. That I understand... but you can get around that problem if you design your level well (never have more than 2 or 3 rooms in any one view if you design it right. )

[Xcom]

Originally posted by RichDiesal

Wow... that's actually rather impressive, lol. But my question to you is WHY?

 

I have no idea why. Maybe to create FMV cinematics in some special cases.

[simarilius]

Originally posted by RichDiesal

... you can get around that problem if you design your level well (never have more than 2 or 3 rooms in any one view if you design it right. )

 

problem comes when you have something like the millenium falcon with lots of near symmetry in multiple axes, you end up with lots of stuff on top of each other you cant put anywhere else, gets VERY confusing pretty quick. Thankfully its still not as complex as the 100k element FEA models from work, so i tend to be able to cope with it. (still, the FEA software has decent grouping facilities)

[RichDiesal]

Well still... I've never found it all that difficult. I place everything in XY Top and then switch to a side view to place it on the Z-axis, using the 3D View as a guide.

 

Relatively easy that way.