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Posts posted by S_W_LeGenD

  1. I agree, I want more too, but I would prefered it was in the eagerly wanted KotOR 3 (and not a MMO), a video-game is not only more funny, we can also make our own decisions too, instead of a novel that could be interesting but in which everything is decided and that we could disagree, because there could be something we don´t like. What if you read the novel and it´s not as you thought or wanted? That´s why I´m a little disappointed with what I have read of the novel, because I think Revan is more charismatic, determined, and powerfull than he seems to be in those chapters (the way he fights with the Basilisks..., I expected something as "TFU 2: Betrayal" trailer).

    The rest we have read here about the novel is pure speculation.

    I understand. I also wanted KOTOR 3. But KOTOR 2 destroyed Revan's story in my opinion. Revan' story was beautiful and clean in the first game. Then came KOTOR 2 and we learned that Revan went in to the unknown regions and never came back. This sucked.


    However, I do think that some attributes and characteristics of Revan and Jedi Exile needed to be defined and it has been rightfully done so.


    If Revan and the Jedi Exile are considered in a debate, we can never properly argue for them with vague characteristics. Our personal assumptions will have no merit unless they have canonical support behind them.


    I agree, I have just read 2 chapters. But I expected somthing more.

    The novel is not bad. Give it a try. However, it lacks in depth.


    I personally believe that the novel seriously lacks in depth in the finale specially. The struggle to reach the Sith Emperor should have been a long one and it would have been good to see lots of combat feats of Lord Scourge, Jedi Exile, and Revan in the process. Drew wasted this golden opportunity in my opinion. The final battle was also not good enough for my liking.


    First there were the games, and later the history. Revan and the exile are originally 2 video-game characters that were adapted to the SW history, so I think it´s important to take in account the games and what they offer, even if you disagree. I say I wanted Revan in KotOR 2 and with what it offers (I told before I played K2 as if the PC was Revan instead of the exile).

    I also prefer Revan, by far. I expected more of his adventures in KotOR 2, with the rest of characters of the KotOR (or the majority of them), and not another story with another PC and a stupid story about: "Revan went to the Unknown Regions, we know nothing about him". What disappointment! :swear:

    I absolutely agree with you here.


    Though I have no issues with introduction of the Jedi Exile. Her story is good in the Revan' novel surprisingly.


    By the way, you tell me the attributes of the 2 characters; considering the initial attributes in the games, and the others that you get every 4 levels, I don´t see why those attributes you tell me are so high, overall in K1, unless you cheat. We could say the same with Malak: 29, 18, 23, 15, 15, 20. :confused: And are the LS bonus included?

    But I´ll answer to your argument: seeing these attributes you tell me, the exile is more intelligent and charismatic than Revan :eyeraise: . Unacceptable! :disaprove . Besides, "this" Revan has many odd attributes, so they´re incomplete for getting the bonus; following your argument, I think it would be better to say: 16, 16, 14, 14, 18, 22, and that would be much more than the rest of the companions of the games. I cheat and my Revan is: 16+3, 16, 14, 14, 16, 20.

    And we´re talking about Revan, remove the "Darth". :lsduel:

    No, I am not talking about the initial attributes of the game.


    Those are official attributes of the two characters during the Jedi Civil War. However, they do not give you the whole picture. Revan has certain specialities and so does Jedi Exile. And characters grow and change with passage of time.

  2. I totally agree with DarthMuffin and Totenkopf. The novel is unnecessary, and it´s just a version, as any of ours. And, don´t forget it, Star Wars is a bussiness, even if it is unnecessary. All of us have our own ideas/thoughts about Revan, the exile, and what happened to them. As we have our own versions of Revan and the exile (gender, hair, LS or DS, etc.), we shouldn´t consider this novel as a canon, just another version. I´ll read the novel, but just for curiosity; I´ll still have my own opinion, surely as all of you.

    I disagree. I always wanted Revan to be properly defined and his story be completed. He is too important character to be treated as a vague.


    Keep in mind that fans do not own Revan. Lucas is the owner. We just borrow the character in KOTOR game.


    However, I want Revan to get decent roles and treatment so that fanbase is satisfied. Fans are important because they made Star Wars famous in the first place.


    To be honest, I want more novels on Revan.


    By now, I suppose all of you konw that, in http://www.swtor.com, you can download the chapters 3 and 11 of the novel. According to that and what I´ve read here, I think I won´t like the novel very much, because in the novel, it seems Revan is less of what I think; that´s not exactly what I imagined about Revan and what happened to him. I´m one of those thousands of Revan´s fans who think Revan is our favourite character in Star Wars, and any of us have our thoughts, and probably they differ from Drew Karpyshyn´s version, but I don´t think we should kill him and his novel before reading it, I won´t do it. Let´s wait a little longer. Don´t take it as a canon, just enjoy it.

    The entire book should be read before forming an opinion.


    Revan does actually assists the Mandalorians in reorganizing themselves before leaving for the unknown regions. Canderous becomes the Mandalore after the death of his wife.


    And about the previous discussion about Revan VS the exile:

    KotOR is my favourite game, in spite of being and "ancient" game from 2003, I enjoy it every time I play it; it has made me to have my own opinion about Revan, which is the same as the one you can read in:




    "Revan was known as a highly skilled warrior, having defeated some of the greatest and most accomplished fighters of his time during the Mandalorian Wars and the subsequent Jedi Civil War, including the former Echani general and senator Yusanis, Mandalore the Ultimate, and Darth Malak, who was counted among the skilled swordsmen of the era.

    Revan was an incredibly talented and diligent student of the Force — the most gifted of his time — and eventually, by all accounts, became a very powerful Force practitioner. Both as a Sith Lord and as a Jedi, Revan used a variety of Force powers.

    Revan was an exceptionally capable strategist and tactician. Revan's originality as a battlefield commander would earn him the undying respect of both the Mandalorian and Echani warrior cultures.

    In addition to his combat prowess, Force mastery, and imaginative battle strategies, Revan spoke and comprehended a variety of languages. Revan was a skilled mechanic.

    "…Your potential is unlimited…" - Zhar Lestin.

    "You, Revan, are the single greatest warrior of this age, and any battle we fight will bring me honor." - Canderous Ordo.

    "Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force." - Kreia".


    And in KotOR 2:


    "Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore? And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyony knew. The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil."


    When you read this, the only one opinion that you can make is that Revan is very powerful, very charismatic, a natural leader, and a skilled lightsaber wielder.

    So, according with the KotOR 1, Revan is very powerful; not inmortal, allmighty and invencible, but very powerful, who decided to make a lesser evil for a greater good. A very interesting character, unfairly looked down on in KotOR 2, just because Obsidian wanted his/her own hero, or maybe they weren´t able to deal with Revan´ success or they didn´t know how to deal with, so they developed a different story. It´s really disappointing not having Revan, Bastila, Carth, Jolee, etc. again. It´s a pity there isn´t a real KotOR 3.

    I think it´s absurd discussing who is the best, if Revan or the exile, we cannot make an appropriate comparison, because Revan and the exile are 2 different characters of 2 different games.

    In KotOR, Revan starts being a "normal" person, you can get 20 levels, only 12 of jedi (19 with mods). And that´s all.

    In KotOR 2, the exile starts being a jedi, at level 15 can get the advanced/master class, you can get 50 levels (with cheats :D ), and many feats, force powers and skills with the help of Kreia, Brianna, Visas, Atton, HK, T3 and the Jedi masters.

    According to this, it´s obvious that the exile is far more powerful than Revan. Another thing would be that the exile was in KotOr and Revan in KotOR 2, as I have done: I played the KotOR 2 as the exile (obviously :p ): a man, Jedi Guardian level 15 - Jedi Weapon Master level ...; later, I played the game having in mind how Revan could be according with the KotOR and starwars.wikia.com (and, obviously, my decision), and MY result (I insist, it´s just my opinion) is a Jedi Guardian level 15 - Jedi Master level ...). In this case, I prefer Revan. I say all this so you can see it´s absurd arguing who is the best, becuase all of us have our opinion, but, when discussing this, remember we´re talking about different games.


    Sorry for this huge and boring post :xp: .

    This is why gameplay is invalid basis for determining the strengths and weaknesses of a character.


    KOTOR II is more advanced then KOTOR I, hence more features and levels are in it.


    Officially, the attributes of two characters are as follows:


    Jedi Exile:


    Str: 14

    Dex: 16

    Con: 13

    Int: 16

    Wis: 16

    Cha: 20


    Darth Revan:


    Str: 17

    Dex: 17

    Con: 14

    Int: 15

    Wis: 18

    Cha: 19


    Drew confirmed that Revan was the most powerful Jedi of his time.



  3. Seriously re-read what you wrote?

    Let us re-visit your opening of the responses to me:


    Thanks for your input, though it's my time to waste serving no purpose, and last time I checked I was free to do with my time what I like. Though apart from anything else, I thought it good for Drew to know that not everyone who disagreed with the novel hated or felt the need to flame him.


    I'm also sorry I hadn't realised two adults weren't allowed to have a conversation/send each other emails even if "it's pointless" (which for point of fact most of our correspondence with other human beings is, for example what purpose did this reply serve? Or my reply back serve? You think I'm going to change my mind after a few ad hominems from you?)


    This sarcastic barrage on me was not needed.


    Here is my full comment:


    Seriously, your email to Drew would have served no purpose. The book is on the verge of release. And judging by the spoilers, I believe that that Drew has been disrespectful to both Revan and Exile. However, we can only pass final judgment after reading the Novel.


    My intended point was that you will waste your time by sharing your perceptions of your favorite characters with Drew. He may not agree with your perceptions or even parts of them.


    Drew has already stated this in his website:


    Disclaimer: DO NOT send me any story ideas, suggestions for a new book, character, game, etc. I will not look at them and will delete the e-mail UNREAD.


    I just wanted to simply caution you on Drew.


    Regarding how Drew chose to advance the stories of Revan and Exile; there is nothing we can do about it. There can be two outcomes; fans may or may not like his work. Our inputs will serve no (useful) purpose. Our inputs could have been useful when Drew was writing the Novel. However, Drew probably dislikes input from fans regarding his works as apparent from his disclaimer.


    If your objective was feedback only; fine. However, useless in my opinion. But you seem to have taken offence with my opening comments which was uncalled for. Still we can leave this now and move on.


    Seriously? At any point did I say all Revan fans are ego-centric fools? I made the claim that people who think Revan is the strongest force user ever are; because essentially they are Revan, and as they are Revan they give a number of different attributes to Revan which make him unbeatable.


    Stop applying your own generalisations of what I said to every Revan fan.

    I understand your point but I still believe that this comment was unneeded. You can have disagreements with opinions of some Revan fans. However, this does not justifies your insulting remarks for them.


    Some fans of Exile overhype her a lot too. They think that because she stopped the Sith Triumvirate, she is unstoppable too and they percieve her to be more powerful then Revan. Your own responses affirm my point. See below. Still this is not an excuse to be used by any Revan fan to belittle them. Every person is entitled to his/her opinion. But we can separate opinions from facts. This is the primary objective of any debate.


    Keep in mind that Revan has much bigger fanbase among many Star Wars characters. You might be happy with how Revan is depicted in the novel but same cannot be true for so many Revan fans. All fans of Revan have high expectations from Drew. However, we may be disappointed.


    So because something is going to be released feedback shouldn't be given?

    Go ahead. No one is stopping you. However, feedback would make sense after reading the novel. This is what Drew will also say.


    And keep in mind that Exile will be judged by how Drew advanced her story in his work. And not by your feedback. Same goes for Revan.


    Why? I shared it in this thread to share something I'd send and would let anyone know if I received a reply. Why should I be fair in my message? Although actually I think most people would agree that my message was fair, though essentially your dislike of it seems to come from the facts that;


    a) Your main and biggest gripe; That I think the Exile could beat Revan one on one.

    b) I dislike people who think Revan can kill everything ever.

    c) Some perceived slight on Revan's power.

    Your response is not fair to Revan fanbase as a whole. You do not speak for the Revan fanbase. You even insulted those Revan fans with whom you have disagreements with. You could have been fair by leaving Revan out of your comments in the first place since you had nothing good to say about the character or its fans.


    My biggest gripe is your message not being fair to Revan fans. You think that Exile fanbase is free from the so-called ego-centric fools?


    Revan was one of the most powerful force users of his time, though it would seem not as powerful as the Emporer in TOR (nor for that matter Nihilus who can apparently kill entire Jedi Enclave's just by breathing on them).

    I am not making any comparisons. Judging by how Drew portrayed Revan in his novel, he could have been an AVERAGE. Same goes for Exile. She ended even worse.


    See, here's you reading **** into what I said. I didn't say Revan was affraid of the Emporer, but that I just don't think Revan would of gone to face the Emporer. How wise is it to face an enemy your going to loose to? Especially if your the Galaxy's only hope of stopping said individual?

    Why would Revan have feared the Sith Emperor in the first place?


    Revan clearly thought that he could stop this Sith Emperor. What he did not anticipated was Darth Scourge's back-stabbing. Now two questions arise from this:


    1. Darth Scourge was the only Sith who could lead Revan to the Sith Emperor?

    2. Why Revan even trusted him? Did Exile persuaded Revan in this regard?


    We will surely find answers in the novel.


    However, let us consider some past actions of Revan to determine his personality:


    Revan did not feared Darth Malak regardless of following reasons:


    1. Revan lost to Darth Malak in his duel with him on Leviathan. Revan realized that Darth Malak became more powerful during his tenure as Dark Lord of the Sith and was a dangerous foe.

    2. Darth Malak could use Bastilla Shan against Revan and he actually did. Revan realized this from his interaction with her on Lehon.

    3. Darth Malak was well-prepared to fight any potential adversary on the Star Forge from his point of view, and he would be much harder to defeat on the Star Forge. Revan also anticipated this.


    But these reasons were still not enough to stop Revan from engaging Darth Malak in combat on his own. Revan took his chance.


    My point is that Revan was brave. This was also apparent from his response to the Jedi Strike Team which was sent to arrest him on his flagship. He planned to fight them straight-on.


    However, I accept that Revan was willing to recruit any possible help to succeed in his ambitions. Revan would have responded to a threat on the basis of what he knew about it and what kind of options he could use in his favor to succeed in his plans.


    Nor did I say that Revan was scared of the Exile; but Revan portrayed certainly in K2 is a master technician who used, Droid Assassin's and special teams (Atton) to take out (Jedi) targets.

    He used every possible means to succeed in his ambitions. This sums it all up.


    You know this sentence proves my point. I mean seriously how am I going to know *your* Revan better than you? Your doing the classic thing of taking your Revan and projecting it onto Revan and of course your Revan is better than anyone else...

    No, my perceptions are based on canonical actions of Revan. My perceptions are not based on my gameplay.


    Also which particular Revan are we talking about? Revan before he/she fell? Revan as a Sith Lord? Revan with amnesia? Revan having found out who he/she is? Revan as lightside or darkside?

    Revan as a whole.


    Lets go over game facts stated;


    Revan is a great leader, and a very powerful force user; commander of the (1/3) Republic fleet, then a Sith Lord. Who then gets blown up by his/her apprentice and ends up with amnesia and with the Jedi Council.

    Revan was certainly a great leader and a skilled warrior. However, we do not know how good he was with the Force. Some of the characters that knew him praised him a lot and specially his capabilities. He certainly earned legendary status in the Jedi Order.


    The Exile is a good leader too (but not as a good as Revan), who has a special ability to form connections with others.



    Revan defeats 1 Sith Lord and his (two) apprentice(s) in duels.



    Revan defeated one Sith Lord who led an Empire with firm control and enjoyed Emperor like status in it.


    He also defeated two of the Sith Lord's promising apprentices, several other high-profile figures, Droid armies, dangerous creatures, and many others who opposed him. In the bigger picture, he was instrumental in the downfall of a powerful and organized Sith Empire with his exploits. He fulfilled the expectations of the Jedi Order of his time where every other failed.


    The Exile defeats 3 "main" Sith Lords; plus the other Sith Lords, Sith Assassin's and Sith Marauder's encountered on Malachor 5 (which the Exile does on his/her own, where as Revan on the Star Forge has help).



    Revan defeated most of his high-profile opponents on his own and this reflects positively on his skills.


    And Exile did not defeated those 3 Sith Lords purely on the basis of her skills. The circumstances in which she found herself proved to be very useful. Explanation is below.


    Keep in mind that there was no unity in the Sith Triumvirate, and this proved to be instrumental in its downfall. Exile exploited this weakness with help of Kriea, who was actually Darth Traya. Furthermore, Exile was a Wound in the Force and this increased her chances of survival against the most powerful opponent from the Triumvirate; Darth Nihilus. Let us focus on her engagements now:


    The case of Darth Nihilus:


    The Exile was actually helped by Visas and the Mandalore against her struggle against Darth Nihilus. She did not faced Nihilus alone. In addition, Visas betrayed Darth Nihilus and did not tell him that his force-sever abilities would not work on Exile and may backfire. And that is what precisely happened and he lost.


    The case of Darth Sion:


    If we follow the canonical path, we would notice that Sion develops soft corner for Exile. He likes her but does not admits openly. During his final engagement with Exile, he was convinced by Exile to give up and he accepted. Sion was like rotting corpse. There was no way he could have any future with Exile. He considered death to be the most logical choice.


    The case of Darth Traya:


    Traya, regardless of her nature, saw hope in Exile. She could use Exile for her ambitions and objectives. During her engagement with Exile, she could not use her Force-sever capabilities on her. She also could not fight like a normal Jedi or Sith because of missing hands. She relied on TK based saber dueling. And on the basis of the outcome, we know who succeeded. Maybe Traya wanted her to succeed.


    Based on the above, who's the better duellist? Especially considering the Exile is the only individual who could of beaten Nihilus due to the whole force black whole thing. It seems logical to me, to think the Exile the better duelist, but that Revan is more powerful over all.

    KOTOR II depictions were never about power. They were about exploitations. And I explained above how Exile succeeded.


    By all accounts, Revan seems to be more skilled.


    If you like, think of a General in the Army and a Special Forces troop, in a 1-1 fight the Special Forces trooper would win. However the General is both more important and overall more powerful the the Special Forces trooper.

    Agreed. However, not applicable in context of Revan and Exile.


    Revan however in TSL is continually portrayed as being a Master tactition, and even manipulates and uses the Exile as a weapon against the council.

    I do not disagree. See the red-highlighted part above.


    I believe that Revan was not stupid but he was brave.


    My opinion, but apparently it's upset your Revan was a total bad ass and is great at everything radar. Revan is portrayed as a major manipulator in TSL, I really fail to see how the above is a bad thing, or how it's "unfair" to Revan. It takes two characters who are portrayed in each KotOR game and gives my estimation of their different abilities.

    That was his original peronality before mind wipe. He changed after mind wipe. He was not stupid though. He fulfilled the task entrusted to him by the Jedi Order. And he executed his plans brilliantly once again.


    But keep in mind that trust is an important factor. When you are not acting alone, you have to trust somebody and that somebody can help you succeed. This is also applicable to the Sith.


    Betrayal can lead to downfall of even the most powerful figures in the Universe. Many cases affirm this point.


    This dialogue however is pointless, and I see no point in continuing it, given there's no chance of persuading you how this isn't one big anti-Revan conspiracy.


    [/End j7 nerd rage]

    No, I am not like those fans. You have this habit of generalizing about things, which is not good.

  4. Thanks for your input, though it's my time to waste serving no purpose, and last time I checked I was free to do with my time what I like. Though apart from anything else, I thought it good for Drew to know that not everyone who disagreed with the novel hated or felt the need to flame him.


    I'm also sorry I hadn't realised two adults weren't allowed to have a conversation/send each other emails even if "it's pointless" (which for point of fact most of our correspondence with other human beings is, for example what purpose did this reply serve? Or my reply back serve? You think I'm going to change my mind after a few ad hominems from you?)

    Did I insulted you or something? It seems you got offended by my response.


    You can email Drew a thousand times and I wouldn't care. However, your message to him that you revealed here is not fair to Revan fans in my opinion. You dubbed Revan fans as ego-centic fools in your message, which is a very clear insult.


    Great, sorry for having an opinion different to yours. I'll have to remember next time I'm sending an email from my personal point of view, I should actually make it balanced in case someone disagree's. If it bothers you so much why don't you write an email to Mr Karpyshyn?

    Sending an email to Drew now would serve no purpose. Because the Novel is going to be released soon and we cannot expect any changes in it. We are too late for this exercise.


    Also, you can have different opinion from me. I have no issue with it but your message is not balanced. Read it yourself and then get back to me. When you are addressing a writer, you should try to be fair in your message, if you plan to reveal it in the public.


    Seriously, jealousy? HUGE jump of logic here; Yeah I'm real freaking jealous of a fictional charachter... Or maybe the ammount of people who come on these boards claiming Revan could beat Yoda, Vader, Sidious, Jesus and Gandi's ledt flip flop together just causes me (and others) to be cynical towards "their" Revan. I'd rather my Revan didn't die, but she's a black woman; not the generic male Caucasian most people on these boards are; I'd quite happily see their Revan die.

    I am not the one who made those claims. Judging by how badass Revan was portrayed during KOTOR games, people generally perceived Revan to be very powerful. This still does not justifies the position you took for Revan in your message. I can argue that Revan was indeed a brilliant tactician but he was not afraid of facing his enemies head-on, if he had to. That is what he did against Mandalore the Ultimate, Yusanis, Juhani, Darth Bandon, Bastilla Shan (Dark), and Darth Malak.


    Also, I admire Yoda, Vader, and Sidious. Yoda and Sidious were certainly among the most powerful Force users in Star Wars mythos. Vader is also among the decent lot.


    So just another Revan fanboy then? Just to note, my opinion was that Revan is a more powerful force user than the Exile as well as being a better leader...

    No, I am not just another Revan fanboy. I do understand the character of Revan a lot better then you do.


    Also, what is this?


    "Now if they (Revan and the Exile) fought one on one, I think the Exile would win, however it would never get to that point as Revan would set a trap and use others to kill the Exile."


    I think whatever Mr Karpyshyn decided to do he would of been criticised by someone, nor do I think a professional writer who is continually re-hired can be of "average caliber".

    Again, some authors have great talent and can write great stories. Drew is not among them. However, this does not suggests that Drew would not get to write Star Wars related work.

  5. I doubt that KOTOR 3 has been planned. SWTOR is the main project now. Also, novels are being released to explain what happened before the events of SWTOR.


    Furthermore, even if KOTOR 3 is planned, I doubt that Exile would be a playable character in it. She is dead and would be in the form of a Force Ghost at maximum with whom we may interact during game. Revan can be the main character of that game though, if he is alive.

  6. I received a reply from Mr Karpyshyn;

    @ jonathan7


    Seriously, your email to Drew would have served no purpose. The book is on the verge of release. And judging by the spoilers, I believe that that Drew has been disrespectful to both Revan and Exile. However, we can only pass final judgment after reading the Novel.


    Also, I disliked your approach of strongly defending your favorite character, Exile, in your message while you bashed Revan for no apparent reason. This was completely uncalled for and it reveals your jealousy.


    If you talk about powers, I can put a much more convincing case that Exile wasn't as powerful as her fans make her out to be. She was nothing major without her companions and her being wound of the Force. However, I being a fan of Revan, still dislike the way Exile has been treated in the Novel.


    Just like the fans of Exile have expectations from there character of getting a good role and performance in the Novel; same is true for the fans of Revan.


    Unfortunately, Drew had a chance to satisfy the fans of his works worldwide but he seems to have blown off the opportunity. I can think of a far more convincing story but what can you expect from a writer of average caliber?


    Drew is just OK. He does comes up with brilliant ideas but he is not a brilliant story teller, as far as Star Wars is concerned. And you can never ever expect a Force-Titan from him. He has a very different perception of Force and he believes that the Force has limitations.

  7. The New Sith Empire 3,970 BBY: After the Mandalorian Wars, the Revanchist returned to Dantooine with his friend Alek where they stmbled upon an ancient temple where they found a Star Map. They were told where to find this map by the remnents of the first Sith Empire in the outer regions. They were told to serve as a Vanguard for them. This Star Map led to many more where they found the Star Forge, a Rakatan war devise they built an Empire out of. They built an Entire Armada and using the troops and Dark Jedi given to them by the Sith Emperor, they corrupted many republic soldiers and eventually the Jedi. The first to join were the remnent forces from Exar Kun and Revan's old Master, Darth Traya and her two apprentices Nihilus and Lucien Draay AKA Darth Sion. The three however believed that Revan was ruling his "Empire" in a different manner than the Emperor wished, so she broke away and formed the Sith Triumverite and captured Malachor from Revan. Revan was however defeated by his master and the Jedi and was captured. The Empire finally fell however when Revan attacked the Star Forge, Malak's last place of refuge and destroyed it along with him. Revan went into the outer regions to try and stop the True Sith. The two rulers, of course, are Darth Revan and Darth Malak.

    Here is a more correct interpretation: A powerful Jedi (known as Revan) started the Revanchist movement to help the Republic defeat the Mandalorians. During the ongoing conflict (The Mandalorian Wars), Revan learned about the significance of a planet Malachor V and the taboo it presented to the Mandalorians. Revan visited this planet and got exposure to vast amounts of the Sith Lore. He also learned about the existence of the True Sith there. After the conclusion of the Mandalorian Wars, Revan and Malak in pursuit of remnants of the Mandalorians in the unknown regions met the Sith Emperor (leader of the True Sith) in Dromund Kass. The Emperor persuaded them to prepare for invasion of the Republic by Sith. The fall of Revan and Malak to the dark side was now complete. The two returned as Master and Apprentice. However, their ambitions grew as they got nearer to acquisition of an ancient entity of great power - The Star Forge. Both Revan and Malak now envisioned their own Sith Empire. Revan specially planned to use the combined power of the Republic (under his command with its infrastructure intact) and the Star Forge to counter the threat posed by the Sith Emperor. In short: The Revan was preparing to challenge the Sith Emperor. To achieve his aims, Revan established a Sith Empire of his own and initiated Jedi Civil War to conquer the Republic. However, Darth Malak shattered his hopes by betraying him and got the chance to carry out his own ambitions. Unbeknownst to him, Revan survived and ended Malak's quest to rule the Galaxy by killing him. The Sith Empire crumbled and Star Forge was destroyed. Revan was now hailed as a legend and a great Jedi hero. However, from the ashes, Sith Triumvirate was born.


    Sidenote: Keep in mind that Kriea became a Sith Lord after the conclusion of the Jedi Civil War and she formed Sith Triumvirate with assistance from Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus, who at one time were her apprentices. However, she was betrayed and was instrumental in downfall of the other two Sith Lords. Ironically! Her new apprentice - The Jedi Exile - killed her too.

  8. Revan needs a proper canonical background and image, regardless of how people play him in KoTOR. It will be a progress.


    This holocron is one of such steps in the right direction. I want Revan's story to be completed and his feats covered in detail.

  9. It means revan has no chance against palpatine, the most revan can do is hold his own which he will eventually lose

    Against Dark Empire incarnation of Sidious, he surely has no hope and this is not just the case with Revan.


    DE Sidious can defeat any Sith Lord in single combat but one Sith Lord is getting close and guess who that is? Darth Caedus


    Again it was defeated by the rebel alliance under CIRCUMSTANCES, palpatine ordered the star destroyers NOT to attack the alliance because he wanted to show them the death star was operational, palpatine merely kept the empire at evens length with the alliance so that he can demonstrate the death stars powers.

    And than he suddenly decided to unleash the power of Death Star on Rebel forces and we saw Death Star firing at the Capital Ships of the Rebels in the ROTJ movie. Now was that not massive? It surely send a chill down the spine of Luke who was witnessing the carnage.


    And by the time Sidious was dead, The Empire was going all out against the Rebel forces but it was already too late.


    Malak nearly killed revan on the leviathan didn't he?

    According to DSSB, Malak possessed devastating dark side power. And add to this the fact that Revan was not thinking clearly on Leviathan. He was behaving like ROTS Vader on Mustafar.


    That he got put into a simple stasis field didnt he?

    And that was when Revan was in a state of shock and was not thinking clearly after the revelation.


    And not to forget that Malak was also a powerful Force User.


    That palpatine has more powerful techniques doesn't he?

    So does Revan.


    Though I would give credibility to Palpatine' Force Storm.


    -Revan can't defend against an attack that can destroy his force bond.

    You need to show me some sort of strong canonical evidence that shows that Palpatine knows Nihilus' Super Force Severing technique.


    -Revan has never heard of the fallanasi looping technique which can hide sidious force bond making him invisible to revan in the force and physically.

    When did Sidious learned about Fallanasi Looping Technique? Did he even met with a Fallanasi?


    there are no circumstances to make it even plausible for revan to even harm the dark lord of the sith simply because palpatines a smarter fighter, a stronger fighter and a fighter who has techniques that revan cannot defend against.

    Revan can surely harm Sidious at-least.


    Revan' Force Lightning Storm is powerful enough to cause destruction on a big scale. And he knows some other dangerous techniques too.


    Hell even george lucas said to contend with sidious you have to be as powerful as yoda and according to the ROTS novel yoda has more power than any sith lord before sidious.

    And Revan is like Yoda in most ways.


    He knows more offensive techniques than Yoda. The best thing about Revan is that He understood all aspects of the Force and was trained to use the dark side as well.


    You must also not forget that it took a direct hit from a Turbo-Laser canon to bring down Revan to his knees during his reign as the Dark Lord. Now if such level of power is required to bring down Revan than he can surely put up a good fight against any kind of foe.


    At-least Palpatine will know that he fought against a skilled and challenging combatant and not a fool.


    Because sidious has instantly killed powerful force users with one blast of lightning

    Tell me one thing! What would happen if those dark side prophets would get caught in Revan' Force Lightning Storm based attack?


    But the way! I am getting tired of this Revan vs Sidious crap. People should stop with this non-sense now and move on. Revan was great in his time and same is the case with Sidious. And it is true that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in Star Wars Saga.


    Anyways! Star Wars is mean't to be enjoyed and not preached.

  10. Revan is surely among the most powerful people of his age.


    As a Sith Lord, his feats and accomplishments are remarkable enough to place him in the upper tier of the Sith hierarchy.


    It was by following Revan' ideologies, the Sith of modern era were able to rise once again and conquer the Galaxy.


    Even as a Jedi, his feats are remarkable and his experience is phenomenal.


    And he is very intelligent, adaptable and smart.


    So it is safe to say that he is among the best in Star Wars Saga.

  11. I vote for Revan!


    The main reasons are as follows:


    1- Revan managed to accomplish the highest goal of a Sith. Guess what? Creating a powerful Sith Empire to rule the Galaxy. That's what Revan did. He managed to create and control a powerful Sith Empire and then initiated the conquest of the Republic with great efficiency.


    2- He had an interesting personality. He was very powerful, talented, charismatic and knowledgeable.


    He is also considered to be a candidate for Sith'ari rank. He is surely among the best.

  12. Literally? Why wouldn't that be literal?

    The quote that JoeDoe 2.0 posted is wrong.


    Kriea considered Exile to be her "greatest" student and not the "strongest" one.


    What kriea said about Revan makes it clear that who was the strongest.


    And again, Revan never did anything to prove his power.

    Why not?


    - What about Revan's amazing performance in the Star Forge?


    - Revan also have killed and defeated several notable warriors and this shows that he was skilled enough to deal with threats on his own, when circumstances demanded action.


    - Darth Bane (a very powerful DLOTS) also acknowledged Revan's great knowledge of the Sith teachings and techniques.


    - Many "high profile" figures who have met Revan, have acknowledged his great strength in the Force and skill.


    In the Revan vs Sidious thread, it was said that Revan was powerful simply from the fact that he was in that old era.

    Unfortunately, that thread is now locked or I would have have made a recognizable case for Revan's power.


    Exile was as well, and she has feats of greatness. Exile could very well be as strong as Revan, if not stronger.

    Jedi Exile was not more powerful then Revan. She indeed became a skilled warrior during the events of KOTOR II due to quality training from famous Jedi Masters like Kriea and Kavar and since she was a wound in the Force, this made her immune to a few sith techniques. But no one proclaimed that she became more powerful then Revan.


    Regarding Jolee vs Kriea:


    If Kriea is a Jedi Master in this fight, then this will be a close contest.


    Kriea was very knowledgeable, highly experienced and her understanding of the Force was also great. As a Jedi Master, she have produced several great and promising Jedi, which is also a noticeable feat.


    If Kriea is a DLOTS aka "Darth Traya," then Jolee does not stands a chance. She will defeat him without much trouble.


    Why couldn't she take Revan? She's got the almighty Force Instakill.

    When did those Jedi Masters trained to use the darkside? They were not familiar with many teachings of the Sith and hence lost.


    Revan's case is however different.

  13. There are several reasons I'm extraordinarily skeptical Revan that learned some anti-Nihilus technique in these "tomb-like cities"...

    Of-course! you can be skeptical since there is no definate evidence but just suppositions. But such a possibility still remains.


    First, the Trayus Academy is obviously the most protected structure on Malachor, having obviously survived the Mass Shadow Generator. Since this technique of yours is so rare and so powerful, why store it in one place that's much more vulnerable than another? That would've been idiotic for the Sith to do.

    We would never know that which structure on Malachor V was most protected because when the planet was destroyed, some structures were gone and a few remained, among which Trayus Academy was one.


    Remember that it is possible that not all structures get badly damaged in a disaster hit region. Some stand and some fall.


    Another thing is that Trayus Academy was a frequently used region so that specific technique was probably not kept over there for everyone to study.


    Next, supposing Revan even encountered this technique in the tomb-like cities, why didn't he take it with him or at least have it moved someplace more safe?

    He would have taken it. He did took things with him that were very important to him. Remember that the secrets of Tulak Horde were actiually taken by Revan and Kriea admitted that those secrets were no longer present on Korriban planet. So it is a possibility that he could have taken such a secret with him.


    Not to mention the complete lack of evidence of its existence in the game, chronicles, or other sources. I doubt Obsidian would have thought up an anti-Nihilus technique only to have no mention of it in the game.

    Obsidian might not have thought about it but remember that Obsidian is not the only company in-charge for developing KOTOR games. Stories can be easily changed or altered or even retconned.


    Lastly, supposing the technique even existed despite the above reasons, I don't see how it could exactly work. A Jedi drawing on the Force to protect themselves when facing Nihilus would be like pouring barbecue sauce over his meal. Since it's what he obviously feeds upon, simply coating a Jedi with the Force would simply give him more to eat.

    That technique can be of a very different nature. We can only speculate about it.


    I can give you one example: thousands of years later, a technique known as Force Cloak was introduced by Fallanassi. They taught it to a Jedi Luke Skywalker and he mastered it.


    Now a normal Force Cloak technique allows a Jedi to become invisible to the eyes and to any electronic item as well. But an advanced form of Force Cloak allows a person to even hide/prevent his Force sensitivity from detection from other Force sensitive beings. You cannot even sense the presence of a Jedi who has mastered the Force Cloak technique and when that Jedi is using it. Now this technique can be used to fool Nihilus that no one is present in the same region where he is standing and he can get attacked by such a foe in a 1 vs 1 scenario without getting detected in the process. But chances of failure are also there.


    So this one particular technique can be useful in a fight against Nihilus.


    And there can be some other techniques as well. It is not necessary that a direct counter to Nihilus drain exists, although there is a possibility for one such to exist but we do not know. But certain techniques do exist that can be used to gain advantage in any kind of challenging scenario. The above mentioned technique is one good example.


    I'm quite surprised this didn't happen at Katarr. Honestly, do you think Revan could be faster than half a dozen (or perhaps several dozen) Jedi Masters attacking in unison? One Sith Lord is much less dangerous than they were, and Nihilus mopped the floor with them.

    Once again! you are talking about a different scenario, which is irrelevant.


    I am talking about a 1 vs 1 scenario in which two Sith Lords are present in a same region and both know that their opponent is there and ready for battle. In this kind of scenario, factors such as Speed, Skill and Circumstances decide the out-come of a battle. And Revan can do what he wants in this kind of fighting scenario.


    So like I said before:


    -> If Nihilus manages to hit first - he wins.

    -> If Revan manages to hit first - he wins.

  14. Why? Why? Are you serious? Because she wants him dead! She knows how dangerous Nihilus is. She knows that he would’ve devoured all life in the galaxy if the Exile didn’t stop him. The Exile is the key to stopping Nihilus. Kreia knows that. So it would be illogical if she lied to him/her about the fact that there is no defence against his draining ability, apart from him/her.

    Here are some cases:


    A) She does not know that any defensive technique exists to counter the Drain of Nihilus. She tried to find one but she did not succeeded and thus came to a conclusion that no such defensive technique exists.




    B) She is not telling the whole truth to Exile. She does not wants to face Nihilus herself and since Exile is the only viable option to defeat Nihilus easily, so she sends him to defeat him and tells her that only she (Exile) is the key to defeat him.


    My point is that whatever Kriea says is not always true. Unless it is officially declared that there is no defence to Nihilus' Drain, there will always be a possibility for a one to exist.


    Sith Lords don’t lie all the time you know. You have to ask yourself: what would she gain by lying to the Exile about there being no defence against Nihilus’ draining ability? A Sith Lord will only lie if they benefit from it in some way.

    I never said that Sith Lords always lie all the time. But they do lie when they have some vested interests to consider or do not want to reveal sensitive information.


    And you failed to note that Kriea indeed benefitted from that supposed "lie" or theory of hers by convincing Exile that only Exile is the key to stop Nihilus and Kriea won't have to go through a more difficult route to stop him. Thus she stayed behind and watched the results, which proved to be useful.


    Isn’t it rational to believe that Kreia and Sion (who both knew of no defensive technique against Nihilus) visited these “other regions” of Malachor V you speak of? Why would it be limited to just Revan?

    Once again you failed to note that Malachor V was a perfect and un-damaged planet when Revan visited it and it harboured many hidden tomb like cities filled with Sith knowledge/secrets apart from the Trayus Academy. This was before the conclusion of Mandalorian War.


    Now Sion and Kriea visited Malachor V planet after the Mandalorian War and by that time, that planet was mostly destroyed by the "Mass Shadow Generator" and many places were lost and few places remained intact and Trayus Academy was the only notable region to visit in Malachor V as evident from KOTOR II.


    Now how can Sion and Kriea gain as much information as Revan gained from Malachor V, when it was already a destroyed planet with few places intact when they visited it while this was not the case when Revan visited Malachor V?


    My point remains that Revan gained more knowledge from Malachor V because he got access to many hidden tomb like cities apart from the Trayus Academy because the planet was perfect and un-damaged in his time.


    And yet you fail to realise that you cannot just disregard Nihilus’ drain; thus he would use it before Revan could get anywhere near him, meaning that they couldn’t have any type of 1 on 1, face to face battle. Or what, do you think that Nihilus would wait and for some reason let someone powerful like Revan get close enough to him to kill him? Why would he do that? So your point is moot.

    Once again you do not know that how quickly Nihilus can unleash his Drain attack in a 1 vs 1 scenario and the opponent will not be just standing there to get hit by his attack.


    It will only take Revan a couple of seconds to Force Jump and land very close to Nihilus and then quickly attack him with his Saber. In this case, Nihilus will have to counter the attack with his Saber and the duel will start. Now Revan will have the advantage.


    So like Christos K said, Revan won't be just standing and watching.


    You should understand that SPEED and SKILL are the two most important factors that determine the outcome in a 1 vs 1 combat scenario. And circumstances also play a vital role.

  15. Not necessarily, no. Oddly, I find that Kreia never actually tells a complete lie if you examine what she actually does say ever so carefully. That said, I'll freely admit that if Kreia told me water was wet, I would check with at least three other people before I believed her ;)

    She is a manipulative Sith Lord, who uses people for her personal interests and holds the title of "Lord of Betrayal" for a good reason. Now how much these kinds of people can be trusted?


    She even thinks that Ancients are some kind of Force Gods and people of her age are like children playing with toys when compared to them. Seriously, there are many other sources available that point out that Ancients are not so impressive.


    Do you think that people like Revan, Exile, Sion, Malak and Nihilus are children playing with toys when compared to ancients?


    You should understand that a huge SW Universe exists outside KOTOR II and how does Kriea percieves it is her own ideology. You should look at other sources as well and then make your conclusions.


    And I take it rather than believe Kreia for lack of better source, you prefer to believe, well, whatever you prefer to believe? Well, I do see your point... Claiming whatever you like and dismissing the only source you have out of hand does make it much easier to make the claim. Don't expect me to be convinced, though.

    Believe me! I consider Kriea to be a very knowledgeable person but that does not means that her point-of-view about all the things are perfect. She does not even understands the importance of machines that Revan used for his purposes. She has a mystical type of personality.


    And I am not fully dismissing what she says but again I have mentioned a possibility that she cannot be telling the whole truth. Like I said before that Sith Lords tend to keep sensitive information as secrets and Revan also did this. I am not making my own assumptions but using examples of actual happenings that further my point.


    Yes, but I've read the quote too, and my conclusion is rather different, so where does that leave us?

    And what is your conclusion?


    And yet there is. What does that tell us?

    Speak out the doubt then...


    I don't think he did so as intensively as Kreia did later, because he was fighting a war at the same time. My take on Revan is that he is dedicated to his goals to fault. Almost hellbent, once he is set on a course. He would not be as determined as he is, if that were not so IMHO. It's one of the things that makes him a good strategist. So on that basis I must respectfully disagree with you.

    Your thinking does not matters in this case. Actions of Revan speak louder then words.


    - Revan discovered and explored the forbidden world of Malachor V and established a secret base over there.

    - Revan discovered the Star Forge by travelling to various worlds and gathering information about its existance.

    - Revan studied Star Forge itself and used it to fuel the power of his Empire.

    - Revan explored the world of Korriban and discovered ancient tombs over there and established a Sith Academy over there.


    So all these events have happened and you cannot deny the truth. Revan was indeed a great strategist but he was actually more then that.


    I try not to make unfounded arguments. I prefer to base mine on what evidence can be gleaned from the sources available.

    And yet you fail to do so in case of Revan. Double standards?


    And Nihilus used his power from orbit over Katarr, which would be at least, what, 20000 miles? Revan can force jump that far, I take it?

    Is this not a 1 on 1 match in a same place?


    You are again making a baseless and bogus point over here.


    These comments are getting rather heated. Please avoid calling an opinion 'bogus'. --Jae


    It was cut, but it went far along into production to be written, so I think it's fair to assume that it is at least descriptive of what sort of powers the writers intended for Nihilus to have.

    And still that content was discarded. Why?


    And also did you noticed that Sion made a terrible mistake by running straight towards Nihilus?


    It's moot because - as I said before - we have no idea whether the same principle can be applied to Nihilus. So even if I agreed with that what you say here is true, it would still tell us nothing that is relevant to the question of whether Revan could do this to Nihilus or not. And no, I'm not saying whether I agree with you or not, because I don't feel I need to make up my mind on the issue, since it's just redundant to the matter at hand IMHO.

    I will take this that you are undecided here. But the possibility that I mentioned remains.


    Which I humbly disagree with for the reasons stated above.

    It is your choice and it does not makes my point false. Sorry!


    Exactly. Seriously, it is nonsensical to think that Kreia would lie about such a thing.

    Why? she is a Sith Lord and Sith Lords do not reveal all the sensitive information that they know even to their apprentices. I have posted an example to back my point.


    Even if Revan learned more than Kreia at the Trayus Academy, so what? That doesn’t mean he/she could negate Nihilus force drain.

    The problem is that Trayus Academy is the only region that we see intact on Malachor V in KOTOR II and many other regions have been destroyed. The Chronciles reveals that there were many other hidden tomb like cities on the surface of an intact Malachor V planet that Revan visited and he explored many of those hidden regions for more knowledge.


    So things are not just limited to Trayus Academy. And we would never know that Revan might have possibly discovered a secret that could be used to counter Nihilus's Drain technique. After-all what Nihilus exhibited was not his own invention.


    I’d love to see how anyone could bring down this argument.


    What, can Revan force jump thousands of miles, as Jediphile’s said? Can Revan kill someone approximately 30 000km away from him/her with force storm?

    And yet you fail to realize that we are talking about a 1 vs 1 scenario in which two Sith Lords are standing close to each other or in a same place. In this kind of scenario, Revan can surely do what I mentioned.


    So your point is already moot.

  16. That is pure speculation. You can doubt Kreia, but she remains the only source of information we have on Nihilus' power, so I'll take her word over, well, no source at all whatsoever.

    It is a logical deduction actually and I have explained about the true nature of a Sith Lord in simple words. Remember that people do lie and do not speak the truth all the time. SW characters are no exceptions to this and it includes Kriea as well.


    What Kriea says is not always right.


    Though you have quoted correctly, your conclusion remains only speculative.

    Speculative? you seem to have no counter argument then? Not very convincing indeed. My conclusion is based on the observation from that quote.


    I have told you the reason (backed by a source) that why Revan gained more knowledge from Malachor V then Kriea. There should be no doubt about this.


    Revan gaining more knowledge than Kreia is questionable at best. One very obvious point of doubt is time. Revan was in the middle of fighting a war, while Kreia had years to ponder over the secrets of the Sith.

    No it is not.


    Revan had ample time to explore several worlds to study Sith and it is not necessary that he was always busy in the War. He explored the forbidden world of Malachor V during the Mandalorian Conflict.


    Apart from this he journeyed to several worlds for discovery of Star Forge. He even explored the world of Korriban and the tombs of the ancients that you see in the KOTOR were all discovered by Revan. He then established that Korriban Sith Academy near those tombs and initiated more excavation programs to discover more secrets of the Sith.


    And how do we know this of Revan's abilities? From "The One", a very evil person and therefore at least as questionable a source of information as Kreia.

    The One is not the only source. You failed to note that Malak was actually trained in the ways of the Sith by Revan. So what Malak demonstrated, Revan already knew those techniques. And not to forget the fact that Revan did not taught Malak all the techniques he knew.


    All entirely speculative.

    Nice argument. Either generate a counter-argument or quit debating.


    Thank you for conceding that point.

    I always agree with facts. You don't need to thank me for this but you are still welcome.


    Complete speculation. You cannot state that as fact when we just don't know if that is possible. And the closest source we have would suggest otherwise...



    Do you need everything to be spoon-fed to you from some sources to understand? Force Jump is an ability that is taught to most Jedi Knights. Revan is a Jedi Knight and he can perform that kind of attack using this ability.


    And that video is a cut-content material. Not all consider it to be an authenticated source for argument, so my question still remains.


    That's also subject to speculation, but it's a moot point since we cannot assume that it applies in any way to Nihilus.

    How it is a moot point? I gave an example of a fight in the movies, in which Anakin managed to over-whelm Dooku through his impressive speed and elite saber skills. He never gave Dooku enough chance to use Force attacks on him and Dooku lost.


    If Revan Force-Jumps right in to the position of Nihilus with his ignited Saber and strikes, Nihilus will be in serious trouble and he will have no option but to counter with his Saber (if he manages to draw it out in time) but even then he will loose.


    Thus I have stated a single possibility in which Revan can gain advantage over Nihilus.

  17. Revan has no particular high skill with force lightning. Sure he could do it, and since he was fairly powerful, he was good at it, but that's about it.

    You are sadly mistaken if you think like this. Did you noticed that Malak was a master practitioner of Fore Lightning (in the first game)?


    He could torture and break the will of strong Jedi with his Force Lightning. He could even instantly kill a Jedi with his Force Lightning , if he wanted to and he demonstrated this capability on the Star Forge.


    Now Revan was more powerful then Malak in many aspects of the Force. And Drew says that Revan was also a master practitioner of Force Lightning. Guess what? an opinion of an expert matters more then that of yours.


    So your logic holds no water here.


    Nor was the entire CONCLAVE of Jedi on Katarr. Yet they all bit the dust, no problem. Revan may be powerful, but not more than the entire conclave of jedi. You'd think at least a few of them could react before Nihilus... but then unlike Nihilus, they cannot use their powers from an orbiting distance.

    You are making an illogical comparison here. I never said that Revan was more powerful then all those Jedi combined together. Even Yoda was not that powerful.


    I never doubted the fact that if Revan gets caught in that Super-Drain attack of Nihilus, he will not survive. Of-course! he will not.


    But destroying an entire planet is a different thing then attacking a single powerful and experienced Jedi or Sith, who is standing near you and ready to kill you.


    A person can actually dodge an attack but a planet cannot. Nihilus will need to focus on the Revan's position and launch an attack with some degree of precision. But how quickly it will generate and reach the intended target, is questionable. And Revan can quickly "Force-Jump" right in to the position of Nihilus and slice him with his Light Saber. It is not that difficult.


    It's not a question of Revan being a pushover - it's a question of Nihilus being powerful in a way that most jedi, including Revan, are powerless again.

    I agree that most Jedi are powerless against Nihilus' Super drain but the outcome in an actual 1 on 1 fight is determined by several factors and not just by power.


    Do you remember that how Anakin destroyed Count Dooku on that ship (as shown in ROTS Movie)? Although Dooku was capable enought to defeat Anakin through the Force but Anakin denied him that chance.

  18. A slight problem with that theory, though...


    Kreia (about Nihilus): "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."


    So no, Revan could have learned it because that is not possible. Besides, Kreia has been in the Trayus Academy longer than Revan, and while we can argue her strength in the force next to Revan's, she is far more of a scholar than Revan will ever be. So I think it's fair to assume that if the power could be learned, or defended against, then Kreia would have learned both. And yet she says, even as we see the cutscene where Nihilus unpowers her:


    Kreia: "There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense."

    Once again! You put too much faith on Kriea, which is not advisable. I will explain how.


    First of all, Kriea is a Sith Lord in disguise and wise Sith Lords never reveal all the sensitive information they know even to their apprentices or they would be considered as fools. Kriea even kept her true identity hidden for a long period from Exile, because she wanted to further her goals and Exile was the perfect tool.


    Revan too did not reveal all he knew to Malak.


    The technique that Nihilus demonstrated can be learned. He actually did not invent it, he learned it from somewhere but the important thing to note is that Nihilus took that power to a new level due to his un-controlled hunger.


    Kriea believed that that technique cannot be taught but that is her opinion. Or it is possible that she is not telling Exile the whole truth.


    And when Kriea reached Malalchor V, it was already a destroyed planet with only few places intact and lots of sources of information were lost.


    But when Revan reached Malalchor V, it was a fully intact planet and and according to a canon source "The Chronicles", Malachor V harboured several cities and tombs that contained immense knowledge about the Sith and not just the Trayas Academy.


    Here is the exact quote: Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side.


    Now you see that Kriea could not gain as much knowledge from Malachor V as Revan did because few places of that planet remained intact after the destructive Mandalorian war.


    So Revan obviously gained more knowledge.


    And being a great scholar does not means that you surpass all in terms of knowledge. Revan gained tremendous knowledge by traveling to so many regions that we do not know. He not only gained immense knowledge but also discovered those things that remained hidden for thousands of years. Kriea never made such discoveries.


    I can safely say that Revan’s knowledge base is superior to that of Kriea. Like it or not, Kriea is not an all knowing person.

  19. I have no quarrel or doubt about Revan's strategic abilities. If that comes into play, then I'd put my money on Revan. However, I think in this case we're talking about a straight one-on-one fight, and I don't see how Revan could possibly win that. Nihilus could drain him dry long before Revan ever got close enough to do anything to him.

    It is not so easy as you make it out to be. Remember that Revan was a master practitioner of Force Lightning. And you should know that a powerful burst of Force Lightning is highly lethal to any living being.


    It depends upon that how fast Nihilus can react.


    - If Revan hits first, he wins.

    - And if Nihilus hits first, he wins.


    And do note that Revan is no push-over for any person in combat.

  20. If they were wise, probably not a lot. Contrary to the movies, generals and admirals don't participate in the actual battles and lead charges; they stay in secure, undisclosed locations and deal with mental challanges (managing a war is a lot of work) over physical ones. Malak might not've (since he's portrayed as being as a good a tactician as a trash heap), but I highly doubt he charged into the enemy lines without any backup.

    What makes you say that Revan himself never participated in battles? He was not a common commander or something. He was a powerful Jedi Knight and was not afraid of any one.


    Revan was very famous for killing Mandalore - The Ultimate by himself in a single battle. What you have to say about this then? (This case clearly shows that Leader of one army actually fought against the Leader of the other army in a personal battle to gain advantage and fame.)


    And this also shows that Revan actively participated in Combat operations whenever necessary, and not just commanded the Republic Forces.


    Really now, it's never even stated how many troops he went up against, or if he was getting any help at all. I can accept the idea that he'd risk his life, but that statement is quite vague, and I wouldn't consider it a very good source.

    Do you have to be spoon-fed on all things? Malak himself fought in many pitched battles against Mandalorians and he won in many such encounters. Why is this so difficult to understand? And my point is that Fire-power used in wars are much greater then in any other case.


    Please avoid flame-baiting. --Jae


    I won't deny they're both stronger than the average Wookiee, because they both obviously were. However, with large enough numbers they could be killed. If Revan and Malak were surrounded by one hundred of them all firing at once, would they really stand a chance? Of course not. They'd be shot dead on the spot.

    Much more stronger then an average wookiee is more accurate term. Jedi have precognition and telekinetic abilities. And these things give them massive edge over other individuals.


    Experienced Jedi can easily deflect blaster fire with Light Sabers. And you are making a one sided scenario in which wookiees will fire and Jedi will not do their best to defeat them, which is pure wrong. Jedi will definately try to over-power their opponents through knowledge of Force, which gives them ultimate edge in any case.


    And Revan proved on Star Forge, that he is capable enough to fight against heavy odds and prevail.


    I'll say it again: Revan and Malak are not all-powerful Force gods. If you blast them, they die. :)

    No one is saying this but they were very powerful indeed.


    All the Wookiees seemed to have a great deal of respect for Jolee. If he told them that he was going to kill the two most evil men in the known galaxy, I'd venture that they would help him. Not only as a favor, but I doubt they'd think he was lying about that.

    Respect is one thing but their were hardly any devoted wookiee followers of Jolee. We have noted this when we visit shadowlands. Czerka men openly killed wookiees where-ever they wanted to and yet Jolee hardly fought against them. So it is highly unlikely that Jolee can organize such a large gathering to fight for him and that too against very powerful Sith Lords, who will pose a much greater threat to them then Czerka men.


    Also it is obvious that Revan and Malak would have met many wookiees in their visit to Kashyyyk. And no wookiee offered resistance or if some of them really did then they got pawned.


    No, it doesn't. It may have been "all his scouting parties", but for all we know those could have been as many a hundred warriors (unlikely) to merely ten. Not all the Rakata were part of those parties, after all. As no specific numbers were stated, there's very little credence towards that statement.

    You are just stating your opinion, which is not true. The One said that many of his warriors were killed by Revan and Malak actually. It is time for you to get over this or play KOTOR again to verify the facts yourself.


    Don't ignore simple tactics. Anyone familiar with the local terrain will have one type of advantage of the people who don't, whether they could survive in it or not. Revan and Malak may be Sith Lords, but they're not exempt from the basic laws of nature. :)

    Of-course! Revan and Malak were not exempt from laws of nature but they surely knew how to defend themselves. They had vast experience and many other advantages at their disposal to give them edge against wookiees.

  21. Who says it would be just a band? I doubt Revan and Malak could defeat several platoons of Wookiees firing at them from all sides. They're not all-powerful Force gods, contrary to most fanboy beliefs. If you blast them, they die. :)

    Do you know that how much Fire Power they encountered in Mandalorian Wars?


    Malak was specially known to recklessely charge in to dangerous fights and win.


    Those wookiees stand no chance. They can't defend against Force Attacks and both Revan and Malak were master swordsmen. They will deflect any blaster fire coming towards them.


    And why would Wookiees do such a job for Jolee? He did not seem to had any popular gathering of wookiees at his disposal.


    Numbers are a different matter there. Is it ever stated how many Rakata attacked them? No, it isn't. Large enough numbers can overwhelm anyone, Sith Lords or not. :)

    Rakatan Leader said that all the scouting parties he sent towards Revan and Malak were destroyed by them. Which automatically means that many of his warriors died in the attack.


    Living there and visiting there are different matters. From what's seen in KotOR and the EU, most Wookiees visit it (and return) at some point in their lives.

    We go over there for the second time. Don't we?


    We encounter various problems and troubles including Mandalorians, terentatek, kinraths, beasts and all in the process and yet we survive. Don't we?


    Same would have happened in Revan's previous visit. And those Sith Lords had no trouble in dealing with these kinds of threats.

  22. I doubt Jolee ran into Revan at all. If he sensed a lightsider nearby, he'd be pretty stupid to let our favorite hermit live, what with searching for a Star Map and all...


    I also doubt Jolee would be able to survive a direct confrontation with Revan and Malak. He also doesn't seem like the kind of person who'd let them get away so easily, when it would be a fairly simple matter to get them killed. Organizing a force of Wookiee hunters familiar with the Shadowlands (which Revan and Malak were not), would be able to kill them both.


    Since neither of them tried to get each other killed (which would have been in their interests), the only explanation is that they never even met.

    A band of Wookiees will be able to kill Revan and Malak? Oh Please!!!


    Being familiar with the land is one thing but that does not means that wookiees will have the edge over such powerful Sith Lords.


    Revan and Malak were alone on Lehon planet (an unknown world to them) and many Rakatans attacked them, but they got pawned. Same will happen to Wookiees.


    And Jolee will most definately avoid direct confrontation with these two powerful Sith Lords. He might be an old hermit but he is not an idiot.


    Revan and Malak passed throught these shadowlands in such a secrecy that Jolee did not had the slightest clue about their existance. Revan is indeed a genius. But this does not means that they had encountered no dangers in their search for Star Map in Shadowlands.


    After-all Shadowlands was a dangerous place and wookiees avoided living there.

  23. However, note what he said. Anakain is the greatest Jedi/Sith. This means that non-Jedi/Sith has a chance at defeating Anakain. And I wonder if this non-Jedi/Sith Force User...is the Exile.

    Anakin was never invincible.


    Both the Exile and Anakain has similar properties. Both are considered Messiahs by their teachers...Anakain was seen as the Chosen One by Obi-Wan, while The Exile was seen as the Death of the Force by Kreia. Both had great destinies ahead of them, and these teachers are willing to do whatever it takes to get those destinies to be realized. Obi-Wan and Kreia both taught their Messiahs and put much trust in them, only to have that trust be betrayed...and strangely, to see the properchies made by them come true (Anakain brought balance to the Force, Exile formed a new Jedi Order that would follow the teachings of Kreia).

    Exile does not share much similarities with Anakin.


    A major difference:


    Exile had a master, who actually betrayed Exile because her master was a Sith Lord in-fact.


    Anakin had a master, who never betrayed Anakin, as he was a true Jedi. But Anakin actually betrayed his master by becoming a Sith Lord.




    Exile's purpose has not been fully defined. Though she plays part in restoration of Jedi Order and defeating the Sith Lords but she ventures out in to the unknown regions to find Revan.


    Anakin's purpose was to restore balance to the Force. And he accomplished that purpose but he himself became a Sith in the process.


    Now Exile never became a Sith Lord in the process to accomplish her goals. She was manipulated and used by Traya to accomplish various tasks, which shows that Exile was not very clear about her future without help from Traya.


    So, I don't see any similarities between Anakin and Traya. Revan though shares more similarities with Anakin and this has been indicated in his profiles.


    Before Kreia's death, she commented that the canoncial LS Exile is not a "true Jedi". Since The Exile is not a true Jedi, and LS people are usually not allowed to join the Sith, the Exile is a non-Jedi/Sith Force User. Her ability is to make Force Bonds and steal the Force from everyone around her, including her friends and enemies. This makes her a powerful force-user, on par with Anakain, who naturally has the Force within him.

    This can be debated but possible, since Exile becomes more powerful after her re-connection with the Force and partly through teachings of Kriea.


    So, who is more powerful? Anakain is the "heart of the Force", much more than Revan is according to Lucas, while The Exile is the "death of the Force", growing in power with every person she has slain. And, to make things interesting, let assume both Anakain and the Exile has reached their full potential for this match.

    Anakin is not "Heart in the Force" and this slogan was never officially mean't for him. Anakin is "The Chosen One", which means that Anakin had a special purpose in restoring the balance to the force.


    We don't know about the full potential of Exile. She was already powerful after KOTOR 2 events but canonically we don't know that her power is ever-exceeding, which is highly-unlikely. Though a Jedi is ever learning but their are certain limits and those are related to Midi-Chlorian counts that determine the potential of Jedi.


    I'm betting that the Exile would win. There is much more Force that you can steal than can be produced naturally, even by Anakain.

    If Anakin has reached Full Potential, Exile stands no chance in defeating such powerful Jedi but it will be a good fight.

  24. Anakin at his full potential could become the most powerful Jedi. But he never reaches his full potential.


    Considering some important things in the ranking:


    - Sidious & Revan [post-KOTOR] (Rank 1)

    - Anakin (Rank 2)

    - Darth Traya (Rank 3)


    But if Anakin reaches full potential: (which never happened in canon reality)


    - Anakin (Rank 1)

    - Sidious & Revan [post-KOTOR] (Rank 2)

    - Darth Traya (Rank 3)


    Revan after POST-KOTOR remembered his former mastery in Dark Side (as his mind fully heals and all his memories recover) and add to that his new mastery in the Light, becomes a solid Grey Jedi and one of the most powerful Jedi ever in Star Wars history.


    Though! Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord, but Revan (POST-KOTOR) will be an exceptional match for him after his reformed mastery in Force.


    And as pure Sith Lords:


    1- Darth Sidious

    2- Darth Revan

    3- Darth Vader (not at his full potential)

    4- Darth Traya


    Also as pure Sith Lords:


    1- Darth Vader (Full Potential)

    2- Darth Sidious

    3- Darth Revan

    4- Darth Traya


    I have mentioned all possible ranking ways now.

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