Sadbrush
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Posts posted by Sadbrush
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7 hours ago, Vainamoinen said:
Pirates of the Caribbean lives and dies with Johnny Depp.
Just a couple years back, they proposed doing a "reboot" with Margot Robbie as the lead. I think that IP is much more universally recognizable and lucrative in conjunction with the theme parks. I can't see Disney with two competing pirate movie franchises, unless they somehow make a resurgence and replace the current superhero trend.
2 hours ago, WorldMaker said:Monkey Island is just a silly little thing to Disney they happen to own only by accident of buying Star Wars.
Yeah, it kind of makes me think of that recent Willow Disney+ reboot. Which wasn't a success with the legacy fans and failed to engage the younger ones. I think this new Lucasfilm doesn't really know what the hell they're doing and will probably stick with what works for them for the foreseeable future: which is Star Wars, as far as the eye can see.
2 hours ago, JacquesSparkyTail said:It does make you wonder what the franchise would look like today if that spielberg monkey island movie happened in the 90s. I imagine it would be unrecognisable. The curse style would definitely have stuck around if nothing else.
See, this is exactly the kind of thing I wish they would have made, back when the iron was still "hot." It might have just been a one-off film (like lots of animated films of the '90s), but it would have been a cult classic for sure. And probably lured a generation of kids towards the point-and-click genre. Which might have revitalized and fueled it for awhile longer, etc.
I understand wanting Monkey Island to remain a niche thing that only adventure gamers know about, but there are other ways it could have thrived, too. Just like Sam & Max, which had comic books and a TV show and a shitload of games over the years, but still hasn't burned its goodwill towards fans (in my opinion). Let's face it, Monkey Island was never going to be the next Indiana Jones or Star Wars cash cow.
And while we're at it, remember the attempt to make Maniac Mansion into a sitcom in the '90s? It actually made it even more weird and niche, somehow. And we still only have two of those games in existence, which haven't lost their classic status.
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So long as Pirates of the Caribbean exists, they will never go "all in" on Monkey Island.
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20 hours ago, Vainamoinen said:
I'm kind of happy about the universal enthusiasm in the comments but ... it shows what absurd expectations Ron Gilbert had to fend off for Return. These are the fans that the Monkey Island franchise would have needed last year. I haven't seen a single commenter go "well, the cheap graphics don't really fit the franchise" or "actually, Guybrush couldn't grow a beard" or "why have they emasculated the main char" or "so Murray is gay now?!?" or "actually, this would look so much better with MI3 graphics" or "did they have to steal the tired old Spaceballs joke?" or "they better not have an MI without Elaine!" ...
To be fair, expectations were monumentally high when Ron was involved. We wanted everything to be perfect after a 30-year hiatus. While I think most of us recognize this as a fun, anomalous, one-off idea in an existing pirate game IP that was already heavily influenced by Monkey Island, so our expectations are sufficiently managed.
Also, I feel like I'm in the minority on this, but I really want this to be canon with the rest of the games, especially if it takes place smack dab in the middle of Curse and Escape, where Ron wasn't involved at all. Particularly with the original (has it been confirmed yet?) voice cast involved, I'd love for this to fit in and expand the existing lore of the series (which doesn't retcon Return at all).
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Wow, I wasn't expecting another Monkey Island entry so soon. That's awesome that Sea of Thieves finally embraced its inspiration, they had already included a well-known MI Easter egg since before.
2 hours ago, dognut said:I suspected as much, but I'm sad to hear Ron wasn't asked to consult in any way (once again). Especially since it seems like the developers hold the original games in such high regard. Ah well. At least Dominic and friends appear to be back. This might be enough to get me to buy an Xbox...
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Just finished the video. It wasn't as revelatory as I had hoped, although it was nice to hear him speaking openly (mostly) about certain aspects for a change. Here are some disparate thoughts I had while watching.
- We finally got confirmation that Boybrush was an idea invented for this new game and not the original intention in MI2.
- I'm curious about the "hidden" things that Ron says people haven't found yet. I wonder how on top of the discussion he is (has he browsed these forums?). He also seemed hesitant to confirm whether certain endings hadn't been found yet, although he did eventually confirm that.
- Interesting that Elaine and Guybrush were originally meant to be split up at the beginning. I get that the idea was abandoned early on, although it was still my first impression from playing it.
- I still have so many questions about the early intentions between Guybrush and Elaine and the ending of MI2. Was LeChuck based on any character in Guybrush's real life? Was Stan always the proprietor of the park in SoMI? I'm very interested in how ideas have changed and evolved over the course of all three games.
- I still don't understand why Ron says that the secret is that it was an amusement park and he's been waiting to tell us that for 30 years. And yet, the ending of MI2 made that very clear.
- Interesting that he has one true "canon" ending in mind. We can definitely eliminate the drowning death and "I don't believe" endings, I think. It honestly wouldn't take anything away for me either way.
- The scrapbook note wouldn't have worked in the chest, although it's an interesting idea. I really like that it was an extra feature that came after I thought I had already finished the game. If I had read it in-game, it definitely would have taken me out of it and changed my initial interpretation.
- I'm glad Ron agrees it was a melancholic ending, although obviously that's a bit different from a developer point of view who's worked on this for 30+ years. As he says, he feels like he's Guybrush sitting on the bench with his thoughts at the end.
- A standalone Elaine game would be great, but it definitely wouldn't be as silly as Guybrush's adventures. There would be a much more logical and pragmatic progression to puzzles, but I still think it would work. Sounds like it's his next "dream" project anyway.
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3 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:
Just leave me with my Mutiny on Monkey Island designer document, so I can read it over and over again as I tell myself that somewhere in Ron Gilbert's brain, the secret of Monkey Island was a hellgate beneath a crack in the earth, described in detail.
I had no idea that this was even a thing, but that's amazing.
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7 hours ago, Knight Owl said:
I have a question for everyone: if you were in charge of making the next game, how would you frame it? Does it take place after the park bench at the end of RtMI and follow up on Elaine’s little cliffhanger? Is it a totally self contained story? Do you keep the framing device of guybrush telling the story to his son, or someone else?
The more I think about it, the more unsatisfying another entry would feel at this point, especially coming from a different team. It would be the jump from MI2 to Curse all over again, ignoring all the mythology and setting it firmly in the fantasy of the pirate world. But that world has come crumbling down at the end of this and it's hard not to constantly be aware of that now. Maybe the best strategy would be to make a Boybrush-centric game (perhaps the search for his dad after he went missing from his latest adventure?), even though I hate those passing-of-the-torch stories. Also, I wouldn't want Boybrush to be an exact carbon copy of his dad; maybe he has other fantasies and aspirations. I don't know, I just don't want the next MI game to be a hard reboot that ignores all the previous entries or anything like that. But then again, it feels too soon to consider all of this because I'm still too close to the ending.
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4 hours ago, Pinchpenny said:
- I found a lot of the interactions with Elaine to be quite unsettling. I appreciate this is a weird take, but: Guybrush seems surprised to see her on Melee, her photo with Guybrush is torn, she appears out of nowhere on Monkey Island, she knows how to get to Monkey without a potion, she coincidentally came to fix the Sea Monkey. At the end, where you're going through Monkey forest with her and Guybrush is struggling to keep up with her pace, I wondered if the distance between them would keep increasing before Guybrush is left alone. I was almost expecting Guybrush to have died when he got pushed off the Monkey cliff (with everything else following being a dream) or Elaine to be a figment of his imagination.
That's a cool take. She definitely seems to be omnipresent, which almost felt like a deus ex machina at times. I was also curious about that tumble he takes off the cliff, which seems unsurvivable (same concept as holding his breath, I guess) and wondered if there was some twist in store. The other thing is that it really seems like they were split up or separated for a time. There's like a gulf between them, even though they say all the right words to each other. I really wish we knew the devs intentions with this; it's one of those things that feels almost purposeful, but I don't know what the right interpretation is. Some have likened it to a "therapist" role, which takes a very specific stance, but I'm wondering if they were on a break for some time and are basically treading on eggshells.
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2 hours ago, Knight Owl said:
I think I would have liked to see the ending in the weird theme park version of Melee last a bit longer – maybe have Guybrush comment on some more things, see some other characters, or more rooms. And then maybe build up to the secret in the chest just being the T-shirt. I think I like the direction they took but i was just *way* not ready for it to end that abruptly, haha. Like I didn't dislike it, but I definitely wasn't in a good mood as the credits rolled.
Yeah, this was pretty much my experience playing through the first time. I kind of wish we could have seen all the "behind the scenes" locations of Mêlée Island and visited those cardboard versions for the last time. I really felt Boybrush's disappointment when the story comes to a sudden halt after all that massive buildup.
I'm not upset about it anymore, but I don't think the impact of the ending would have been hurt by giving us a few more moments to linger in that world.
2 hours ago, Knight Owl said:So I've only played monkey island 1, 2, and this, but honestly, despite not knowing how I feel about the ending, I'm pretty sure this is my favorite so far. It was so fun to *actually think about solutions to puzzles in my head and have them turn out to be correct*. That never happened to me with 1 or 2.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if I end up liking Curse more when I get around to playing it, just because of how freaking gorgeous and atmospheric it is. (and I'm a sucker for frame by frame animation). We'll see!
Man, it will be weird playing through Curse after getting this ending. I honestly wonder how it will register while seeing that alternate continuation of MI2. I guess you can experience it through Boybrush's point of view and pretend you're being told one of Guybrush's stories for the first time.
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Were escape rooms a thing back in 1990? That's another idea that I feel has changed from the original intention of this world and was probably only added on later.
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6 hours ago, neoncolor8 said:
I don't know if this was already discussed, but why did the melee clock show a different time on the map to the secret?
I thought that there was gonna be a puzzle where you had to repair the clock and change the time according to the map (8 o'clock or maybe 11:40? hard to tell) to get access to the secret. But no.
Man, what a missed opportunity! It would have been so satisfying to finally fix that clock after all this time, especially after Guybrush makes that comment about it being broken. Maybe those dark runes graffiti could have also come into play since it's in the same area.
QuoteAlso: who put the safe there? Stan?
I keep meaning to ask about that. Who told Corina to store the safe there and not allow anyone to move it? It has to be Stan, since it contains the gaudy chest we see at the end. But I was really hoping for more exposition to come out of this revelation, and why it becomes so convoluted with the five keys and everything. Also, Widey Bones: Feels like there is so much we have yet to learn about her, but then she turns out to be another cardboard cut-out. Dang, the more I think about it, the more I can pick apart holes.
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16 hours ago, OzzieMonkey said:
So I've played the game a second time and I've been stewing on the ending some more, and I think I can pinpoint why I'm finding it difficult to accept. I'm really struggling with the idea that every character we've met, except for Stan and Elaine, are just animatronics. Especially LeChuck. I can't help but feel like the magic has been sucked out of the world by the end, because all of Guybrush's battles with his supposed arch-nemesis feel meaningless if he's not even a real person. I think where I'm feeling the most frustrated is that while the ending seems to be Ron giving everyone whatever interpretation they want, the version where the entire fantasy is completely real is framed as the player being in denial rather than a valid way of seeing things. Idk...could the theme park be a magic place where everything comes to life but the secret turns everyone back into their animatronic forms?
I just want to say, I really love this interpretation. It's the "Night at the Museum" theory. Would be cool if everything came to life after dark after Stan closed up shop and handed Guybrush the keys.
16 hours ago, OzzieMonkey said:If I can get slightly personal for a minute, I have severe anxiety and am prone to very intense depression, and it tends to make me value clarity a LOT, because otherwise I tend to overthink, catastrophize, and generally think the worst of any situation. Because there are so many ways to intepret things, it overloads my brain a bit and picking one version never quite sits comfortably for me because it always feels like I'm denying something. Man, I'm really thinking too deeply about a videogame, I suppose it's good that it is so thought-provoking, though it's personally not in a way that feels right for me.
Yeah, this is the reason I struggled so long with the ending. I've written a lot about my initial disappointment with the last 5 minutes of the game (it really did feel like a traditional adventure up until that point), and the lack of conclusive answers provided by the devs (which I felt had been promised). It's been buried now, but after pondering about it for some time, I'm quite happy with my own headcanon version and I've been able to make everything "fit" to my own satisfaction (with a few additional tweaks here and there).
Personally, I didn't really need a final LeChuck confrontation, although I was surprised at how abrupt the ending came. I do like the fact that we follow LeChuck through that final door with the anticipation of a climactic battle, and then our perspective changes completely (similar to the ending of MI2). It is sad though that LeChuck does not appear to be a real person within the park and is only the source of Guybrush's wild imagination, which does take the wind out of my sails. I still maintain that he was partially inspired by his adopted brother Chuckie (and bears a striking resemblance), who possibly vied for Elaine's affections at some point, but it's not the same.
Anyway, those 10 variations on the ending really helped me to move on, since it gives you loads of new ways to interpret what happened and also gives some indication of where things "stand" with all the characters at the end of the game. My OCD and desire to know everything gradually lifted over the past week (has it only been a week?), and now I can accept all the evidence as presented.
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Random question, but if Guybrush and Elaine had a daughter, do you think they would name her Girlbrush or Ladybrush? (Or possibly, Laneybrush?)
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4 hours ago, Doom Saber said:
In my headcanon, Elaine was originally a cast member a la "Disney princess" in the sense that she worked at the amusement park. She probably gave Guybrush a chance when he asked her out due to his love of the park and playful personality
Yeah, especially the fact that she's in costume and seems to stay in character as "governor" would be a way of explaining how they met in the park and why he started falling for her. I still think she might be a higher-up in the park, since she seems to get around the island area pretty frequently, but still takes her "job" very seriously.
3 hours ago, LowLevel said:I have always considered the Voodoo Lady (who is sometimes called "the fortune teller", at least in the MI1 demo) to be a representation of an element common to Disneyland and amusement parks: fortune telling machines:
You think Guybrush as a kid came across a Zoltar machine at the carnival and wished he were a Pirate?
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9 hours ago, KestrelPi said:
It's all interpretation of course, but I feel like there's a pretty strong implication that what we're seeing at the start of ReMI is the exact same moment as the end of MI2, but with some of the layers peeled back... a process which finishes when they give up on the 'parents' and walk back to the previous area and the buildings etc. have changed.
Also, Ron said it was important for him to pick up the story exactly where MI2 left off, which I guess it wouldn't actually be doing if this was actually just a re-enactment of that moment happening way later.
This is a big bone of contention with me, but definitely interesting to think about. Perhaps it's best that it's never explained for real and left up to interpretation. I don't think Ron was thinking about Guybrush and Elaine having kids back in those days (they were never supposed to be a couple), so I don't think it necessarily would have had that framing element. I think it probably would have been closer to NinjaChamp's hypothesis:
2 hours ago, NinjaChimp said:Reading this led me to hypothesising what the original intent would have been in 1991, and how the envisioned 3rd game would have differed from Return. For one thing, the Guybrush & Boybrush father / son relationship and storytelling narrative seems unlikely as the developers letter suggests this is a reflection on their own experiences of fatherhood and reliving on past glory, something they would have been unlikely to come up with 30 years ago.
I'd wager that the implication of Boybrush being a young version of Guybrush playing pirate games with Chuckie was the original intent. In this version, Chuckie may well have been Guybrush's brother and the two old people we see were indeed their parents. None of the events shown up until that point would have been anything other than the playtime fantasy of two boys in a pirate-themed amusement park.
I hadn't considered this, but the original framework of 3a (in 1992) might have been some version of this that is told from young Guybrush's point of view. Of course, on a different level of interpretation, one could say that Boybrush represents Guybrush, and he's been talking to his inner child this whole time. (goosebumps)
10 hours ago, LowLevel said:During the development of RtMI, Ron asked the readers of his blog what their favorite puzzle was. To me this was a very suspicious question, and I hoped that the answers to this question would help him for his next game. Several replies pointed out that an original puzzle is something that does not necessarily rely on the usual key/lock metaphor. The melting mugs of grog in MI1 were cited as an example. (by Ron!)
If Ron took all those comments into consideration, that might be the reason why this game seems easier than all the others. He was catering more to the player experience than the frustrating designs of those original puzzles (which had me reaching for the physical hint book).
Personally, I didn't mind the fact that Return was simplified. For one, it made me feel smarter. Secondly, I don't have the same patience I did as a kid. With only a limited play window, you want to make as much headway as possible. This game felt like it was constantly moving, there were plenty of things to explore and it was easy to keep a tally of what objectives you had to do. The thing that maybe made it too streamlined was the fact that it tells you which objects you can't combine with each other. But I think that was mostly a shortcut for them to not have to write new lines of dialogue for every failed item combination (which honestly, does get a little redundant: variations on "Nope, you can't do that.").My only complaint about the gameplay is that it feels like there were still puzzles that went unsolved. There are certain items that didn't get to be used and locations that didn't feel fully explored. Areas like the locksmith shop, Wally's shop, the museum, the fish shop, et al, have so many hotspots you can interact with, but don't seem to come into play at all. Again, I think this all had more to do with a limited team and budget and not enough time to populate the world with characters and puzzles, like they did in the earlier games.
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Yeah, I was very curious by Elaine's tease at the end of the game (the lost map to the treasure of Mire Island). It seems to suggest that these adventures keep going on (or live on in our imaginations). If they're really worried about "ruining" the impact of Return's ending, they could always be made as prequels with younger Guybrush (or even Boybrush himself). The only thing I dread is this series getting rebooted entirely (unless it's as a film franchise...which could work).
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3 minutes ago, Dmnkly said:
I did? Was this pulled from the SE? If you'd asked me five minutes ago whether I knew the MTM Show theme, I'd have sworn up and down I didn't.
Of course, I also discovered evidence that I watched Red Sonja 4-5 years ago and still have zero memory of it, so maybe this is a me issue.
I think it was just in the original version of the game. Seems to have been replaced by dialogue at some point. I pulled this up from here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=286271652
QuoteInhaling helium multiple times in the last level against LeChuck used get you several songs.
- "That's the way (I like it)" from KC and the Sunshine band, "A little bit of country, A little bit of rock n' roll" by Donnie and Marie Osmond, "Staying Alive" by the Beegees, "Love Is All Around" The Mary Tyler Moore Theme Song, and "A Munchkin welcome" From The Wizard Of Oz.
Now, presumably due to potential copyright issues, it has been replaced with four pieces of original dialogue.
- "Stump balm, for the active chafing pirate."
- "There's a Monkey in My Pocket," which makes a return in the third game."
- "You're in for it now, you bilious bag of barnacle bait!"
- And the ever-famous, "I'm Bobbin Threadbare. Are you my mother?"
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3 minutes ago, LuigiHann said:
I will say this: I'm not certain if the flooring inspector line in RtMI is meant to be taken literally at all. It's just another self-aware throwback joke intended to play up the anticlimactic nature of that sequence.
If I did want to read it a bit more literally, I'd assume Guybrush as a kid either overheard or just imagined the "you look like a flooring inspector" insult, then grew up to be a flooring inspector himself... talk about unsatisfying!
And yeah, it did occur to me that Guybrush might have really had an old friend or brother named Chuck, and that RtMI's Chuckie might be Chuck's son, for sure. Could even sketch between the lines that Guybrush and whoever Chuckie was repaired their relationship enough that their children are friends, which is a nice thought. Even then, can Chuckie the person and LeChuck the theme park animatronic coexist? Maybe the theme park pirate is unnamed, and Guybrush just calls it LeChuck? Works as well as anything, I suppose. But I do enjoy how it only works on several levels, never quite works on one level alone.
The LeChuck rivalry seems so personal that it has to be based on a real person, right? Maybe he and Chuck were really both vying for Elaine's love and developed a personal rivalry there? If I want to take this to an even more uncomfortable place (and recalling the wedding veil in LeChuck's office), I'd even suggest that Elaine had a relationship with Chuck at some point and Chuckie is actually Guybrush's stepchild. 😬
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8 hours ago, BaronGrackle said:
Something something highly appropriate that Guybrush can sing her theme song while inhaling helium, in MI2.
I like your post about the "turning off lights" trope. I didn't quite understand the significance of shutting down the park as I was first playing. Now as I keep thinking about it, and remembering his "Oh no...not yet" realization that it's all over, it makes it all the more devastating.
But damn, I had no idea he sung The Mary Tyler Moore Show theme song in MI2 (I had to verify it myself). Very interesting way of bringing it all together. (Probably unintentional, but I like making all the pieces fit.)
3 hours ago, LuigiHann said:- Makes sense that Elaine comes across as maternal in the story, since Guybrush has known her as being a mother for several years by the time he's telling it, and since he's telling it to Boybrush, he may well be referring to Elaine as "mom" in his unheard narration.
Shit, something clicked for me as I was reading this. Maybe the reason Guybrush and Elaine's relationship seems so "passionless" compared to earlier adventures is because we're seeing this entire game through Boybrush's eyes, as Guybrush tells him the story. (Also explains why Boybrush is our initial playable character and even fleshes out the "pop-up storybook"-like art style, as seen through a child's eyes.) That might also be why he imagines Chuckie and Dee as versions of LeChuck and Lila in the story (and perhaps accounts for some other personality differences from previous games).
I know we all have our personal headcanon for what happens, but I'm starting to piece together a more concrete view of what Ron may have originally intended back in the '90s. Basically, The Secret of Monkey Island is that it's actually a theme park (something we always suspected from that locked employee door in the back alley). Guybrush is indeed a flooring inspector getting lost in these worlds and his own imagination. Elaine is possibly the (slightly) older woman he meets there in a higher position of authority ("governor") who initially rebuffs him. LeChuck is apparently not based on any real life character, but is actually a realistic animatronic display (this is the hardest pill for me to swallow). Stan is just the capitalist, money-hungry jerk in charge of the place (always slinging his wares). And all the characters he meets in this town are either real life denizens of the park (employees and visitors) and/or literal cardboard cutout characters. MI2's ending basically reveals this for us—and some version of this was originally meant as the ending to MI1 before it got nixed. The whole element of Chuckie's "lightning eyes" and Elaine waiting by the pit were essentially added later as a way to continue the franchise, if someone so wished.
I have to look at Return as a literal return to this world, and not directly continuing the events of MI2. The kids are re-enacting Guybrush's telling of events 30 years later at the beginning of this game, and in no way is meant to be the framing device that Ron intended back in the '90s (it's something that probably came later with age, wisdom and begrudgingly accepting the other games as canon). Many things in Return are rehashing what made the originals so great, but it takes on a slightly new form (as seen through Boybrush's eyes). But what's clear is that it takes place many years later, with a father essentially telling his kid grand, tall tales of his many "adventures" at these theme parks (with some details changed either due to unreliable memory or embellishment on his end). At the end, he reflects on his life as a flooring inspector—which initially seems mundane and boring—but his "riches" in life come in the form of his wife and his kid. Kind of a cheesy ending, but I get it. Reflectively looking back on all of it, over the past 30 years, it's very touching.
The things I'm still trying to reconcile are where we meet Guybrush at the beginning of MI1. If we are to assume it takes place in modern times (1990) and given his youthful appearance, I'd say he's 18 or so? I don't know what kind of certification it takes to be a flooring inspector (what the hell is a flooring inspector anyway?). And at the end of MI2, he's a literal kid (8-9?) which doesn't quite make much sense if that was intended as the defacto ending. Unless it's just meant as a memory of him playing as a kid with his adopted family, which led to his lifetime of dreaming about being a pirate and eventually working in the amusement park business. And there's also the matter of LeChuck, who could just be based on his older brother Chuckie, who was a bit of a jerk and a bully. Which also begs the question: Who is Chuckie in Return? Perhaps his nephew? (Chuckie Jr.?)
Sheesh, it took a few days (and restless nights of Monkey Island dreams) for me to reach a place of quiet acceptance about this ending, but I think I'm just about there. One thing is for certain: this wouldn't bother me so much if I hadn't been thinking about this for 25 or so years. It's weird to finally put this longstanding mystery to rest after all this time. I guess I'm finally in the same place as Guybrush at the end of the game; sitting on a bench, quietly reflecting on my thoughts and a lifetime of memories playing these games.
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1 hour ago, backtothemansion said:
It makes wonder if the reason Ron didn't want Guybrush and Elaine getting married is because Elaine was always intended to be Guybrush's mother in the real world. A mother picking him up from his play time in the park.
I hope that wasn't the case. Who calls their mom "plunder bunny"?
12 minutes ago, NightWalker said:I couldn't figure the solution out either. Does anybody know how the puzzle works? I saw a kind of tombstone or stone with instructions (something about 4 years, steps to the right and the left)... but I cound't find the solution. As you, I tried every possible combination to solve the puzzle.
You first had to align the stones to the symbols and numbers displayed above the stairway arches, then follow the instructions by rotating 3 right, 2 left and 4 from the date.
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47 minutes ago, bishopcruz said:
And had it not been Monkey Island I likely wouldn't be as down on it as I am. I love this series, deeply.
Yes, I think our criticism comes from a place of love. We adore these games and so we hold them to a higher standard. I agree that the game feels less populated than other MI games (I didn't play with the writer's cut on, maybe that will enhance it). I don't know if it's because it was made by a smaller group of people (probably not smaller than the first game), they ran out of money, or maybe it got rushed out and lacked an additional layer of polish. Something about the characterizations of Elaine, Stan and LeChuck also didn't sit right with me, as if they were being subdued in some way. I thought it would all come together in the end and be explained away by whatever the "twist" was, but instead it rings hollow on deeper examination. This was always Guybrush's story from the beginning, but we grew to love all these characters along the way. Even someone as two-dimensional as Murray (or one-dimensional when you flatten him) deserved a better send-off here. All these elements are kind of abandoned in the aftermath when it's all left up to our interpretation. It becomes a sort of Winnie the Pooh syndrome, where it's revealed that we were Christopher Robin all along (or maybe Calvin & Hobbes is the better analogy). But I don't really know anymore. Maybe when enough time has passed and the dust is settled, I can return to this series with a fresh set of eyes (after I've forgotten most of the puzzles) and enjoy it without the burden of expectation. That's my hope, anyway.
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1 minute ago, Colorfinger said:
I'm not sure quite you mean when you say "this is kind of how I feel after playing RtMI". Do you mean that you feel like Ron/Dave missed the point of the series?
No, I missed the point of the series because they never bothered explaining it. I was just being glib. 😛
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12 minutes ago, tmetic said:
I hated the ending to Lost. In fact, the entire 6th series. Even now, thinking about it is a complete bummer. I feel for you if you're experiencing similar disappointment with ReMI.
ReMI's ending was about as close to perfect as it's possible to get, for me. Heartfelt, touching, sort of creepy and weird, with a dash of humour in the mix. I was sobbing. It's a shame it didn't work for you - but at least you got to enjoy Lost!
I really wanted it to work for me. I sat through the credits that first time just thinking about that final moment and what it meant. Again, I think it's the sudden shift of tone and the fact that it ended so suddenly that caught me by surprise. We needed a bit more dialogue and time to process what we had just seen before reaching the end of that sequence. Especially considering this seems intended as the final entry in the series. Some of these characters deserved better.
But yeah, Monkey Island and Lost are pretty similar in that they've got that J.J. Abrams "mystery box" analogy behind them. I noticed someone else in the thread compared it to the third season of Twin Peaks, which also seems apt (a series that I found challenging, but ultimately fulfilling). I mentioned this earlier, but my dissatisfaction with the ending likely also stems from the fact that I haven't reached that point of contentment in my life that Guybrush finds himself in. If I were sharing this game with my spouse or my kid, I'd wager my overall experience would be entirely different.
27 minutes ago, Colorfinger said:they missed the central point, because they had never received the full story.
I don't wish to belabor this, but this is kind of how I feel after playing RtMI. 😉
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49 minutes ago, Dmnkly said:
Had Ron and Dave made this game in 1992, I'm sure it would have been very different.But unless I'm mistaken, I believe the notion that Ron HAD ideas for MI3 back in 1992 assumes facts not in evidence. I mean, I'm sure his mind wasn't a total blank. But has he ever said that there was any vision for MI3 back in the day? Again, I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that never existed.
It seems that for those who feel dissatisfied with the ending, there is a theme of feeling like they just wanted closure. But may I suggest the possibility that you're just overthinking it? I mean, there is a lot of ambiguity around the specifics, but I'm not sure how much more clear RtMI can be about the core revelation. The Secret of Monkey Island is that these stories are fantasies inspired by an amusement park. And in the fellas' defense, they've basically been telling us this for 30 years — in ways both subtle and less subtle — right from the first two lines of the first game.
What constitutes "reality," so to speak, is much more unexplained and nebulous. Do Boybrush and Elaine exist? Where are the lines between Guybrush's fantasy and reality? What's the back story? How do all of these pieces fit on the timeline? My hunch is that these are intentionally very undefined because — to put it bluntly — who cares? It's interesting to ponder, but at least as far as this chapter is concerned, as they say quite explicitly, that's not the part that really matters.
I'm not sure if the disappointment some people experience stems from feelings of ambiguity beyond the secret, or that RtMI's big reveal is hammering home confirmation that the secret is a fairly obvious thing that's been staring us in the face the whole time. (Or from something else, I don't mean to put words in anybody's mouth.) But FWIW, I really don't think there's a lot of wiggle room around what the core of the revelation is.
Like I said way upthread, I get the impression that people's comfort with this ending largely comes down to whether you're comfortable with a lot of peripheral ambiguity, or if you really want everything spelled out to the letter. This definitely isn't the latter. But just because an ending is ambiguous, that doesn't mean it can't bring closure. My opinion is that yes, the game obviously and quite intentionally leaves all kinds of loose ends hanging. But when it comes to the primary themes of the story, the heart of the matter, the capital T Truth at its core, it really wraps things up quite nicely while still giving us a bunch of other stuff to play around with.
And speaking for myself, that's what I want from a Monkey Island game. I don't want everything spelled out. I don't want a neat package where everything is carefully explained. To me, that hazy, ambiguous half real, half fantasy isn't the thing Monkey Island is trying to work through to get to a destination. That IS the destination.
Oh, hi Dom. Big fan of your voice work.
I appreciate your reply and breaking down your interpretation for me. I find myself flip-flopping between my feelings of the game. I really loved the humor and puzzles and everything leading up to those final 5 minutes of the story. At the end, I feel like we were given a lot of information at once and not enough time to process it. For me, I was still waiting for the other shoe to drop. Then it just ended and I had to reassess everything up to that point. I've considered a lot of points of view in this thread, which I can respect, but personally I find myself reaching. I wasn't looking for a big climactic fight between Guybrush and LeChuck. I just wanted that sense of closure that puts a big red bow on the entire series. The kind of revelation that allows me to replay the first two games and get something completely different out of it. I know that was a lot to expect from a computer game, but somehow I convinced myself that Ron was hiding an ace up his sleeve all this years. But instead it managed to rehash most of the things we already knew, just given a new context (and perspective, through Boybrush's eyes).
My favorite TV show is Lost, so I'm no stranger to ambiguity or not getting all my questions answered. It's a series I still defend because it managed to feel satisfying without revealing every single mystery. It's that old adage that if you "wow" them at the end, you can forgive any of the flaws that came before. I realize a lot of it is about the "journey, not the destination," but I think they have equal standing. When I think of my nostalgia-filled memories of the first two games, it mostly comes down to the endings and how I felt about the whole experience. That beautiful graphic of Guybrush and Elaine watching LeChuck explode into fireworks. Or that carnival setting that comes out of left field and ends with a giant question mark. Only time will tell if I view this game and its ending in the same light. I've had a couple of days to sit on it and there are things I really like about it (the fact that there are so many variations and interpretations you can derive from it). I definitely don't take for granted how much of a gift it is that Ron and Dave got to make the game they wanted after all this time. Monkey Island will always be one of my favorite series regardless, but the fact that I still have so many reservations about the ending (and have devoted so many words to it) leaves me feeling less than satisfied. I'm certainly glad other people are getting more enjoyment out of it, but I can't help how I feel.
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Indiana Jones 5
in General Discussion
Posted
Saw it three times. Bottom line, I enjoyed it. But I've been going through a lot lately with this film, trying to process my feelings and reconcile my expectations, and of course the ending. It's not a perfect film by any means (and the de-aging technique is certainly a bit wonky and distracting), but I think it manages to honor the legacy. I was never a Crystal Skull hater (I just read Jason's review, and Jesus Christ, he pummeled that film into oblivion), but it obviously felt very different from the first three (and even the games). Now that Kingdom is no longer the "final" Indy film, I'm able to put it into better perspective and just treat it as another one of his many adventures (including the Young Indy series, which also felt tonally very different compared to the films). Having experienced them all chronologically in the past month (Young Indy, Temple, Raiders, Crusade, Crusade: The Game, Fate of Atlantis, Kingdom and Dial), I kind of feel like I've accompanied this character through his entire lifespan, and so I'm feeling a bit lost and empty at the moment. Not unlike how I felt at the end of Return of Monkey Island (which also took me a damn long time to accept it was "over"). There are not that many franchises left that I care about these days, so it kind of feels like I'm in a state of mourning.