Guest Fondas Posted March 30, 2000 Share Posted March 30, 2000 My point, <u>exactly</u> ! In TG's missions, Star Destroyers don't seem to have commited fighters/interceptors flying DCA CAP ( Defensive Counter Air, Combat Air Patrol) missions or in plain terms protecting a high value asset (like their mothership) from being attacked ! Even if a fighter <u>could</u> get through this barrier screen, it should be constantly locked by torpedos or any other short range SAM's. (Now that I think of it, there is no such thing as "Long Range Weapons" or "BVR combat" in Star Wars ! So the globes are probably shield generators and Cap-ships are indeed very "vulnerable" but only after you have stripped all of it's defenses and that's not an easy task ! Yes, the game has flaws in that, I always thought it was funny, in the "Skywalker/Rendar" mission, that I was able to take the Interdictor out all alone, flying a Y-wing with no warheads ! ------------------ The only place where success comes prior to work, is in a dictionary ! TZG+7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ms. Talon Posted March 30, 2000 Share Posted March 30, 2000 Well, the mission designers had to make sure the mission is beatable, I guess. Interdictors aren't that tough in any case. ------------------ gototalon@home.com http://members.home.net/gototalon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primarch Posted March 30, 2000 Share Posted March 30, 2000 Back again... I know the British had no battleships at the Falklands, it is irrelevany what kinds of surface ships they were...I know that, and you know that, I was just clearing it up for some of the others...sorry to stray from the point the point is that SW combat is based closely on our wars and cap-ships are vulnerable to fighter attacks, simple as that.If capital ships are so vulnerable to fighters why did the Alliance risk its only capital ships at Endor? The were under the impression that the DSII would be lightly defended and since fighters would be the only ships capable of flying into the core to destroy the reactor, why send big targets when they are obviously not needed? The comment about the DS being vulnerable to fighter attack was made BEFORE they analyzed the weakness of the exhaust port. they were talking about a general vulnerability to attack by snub fighters. They were referring to it's lack of anti-fighter weaponry, not that fighters could take it out. They did not believe that Starfighters were a threat to the Death Star. This is not over confidence, or admission that fighters were in any way a danger, this is a fact. If no weakness had been found, all the starfighters in the Alliance could not have destroyed the DS. 1 single torpedo from this aircraft can disable or sink any size vessel in the world.That's all well and good, but it would take a lot more than one torpedo to sink an ISD, let alone an SSD. Okay, this way the Globes may not even be such a major design flaw, they are simply there to give the bridge enhanced shieldingThen why were the bridge deflectors knocked out when only one was destroyed? Surely both would need to be destroyed to render the shields completely useless. And even then, if they are extra shielding for the bridge (a sensible thing) what about the regular shields? And why would they have other globes further along the hull? Maybe the overlapping shield systems tended to cause some sort of hole that made it possible to shot at the generators If there were overlapping shields, how would there be a hole... that A-Wing pilot just thought it was a good thing to shot at! It was a good thing to shoot at...knocking out its sensors would make targetting enemy ships harder if you play the game on hard you can’t take out the globes, think about that one! I never play the game on hard...it's too hard , besides I miss my afterburners. As for the ISD with the burning bridge <--+--> but that one was countered easily I've read that entire paragraph five times and it doesn't make any sense. Maybe I'll come back to it later! It's late so I'll leave you with this: How do we know that the bridge deflectors were not already down when the A-Wings made there attack? ------------------ 'For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky'. Wing Commander - Secret Ops Missions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest garyah99 Posted April 1, 2000 Share Posted April 1, 2000 The bridge shields were NOT down already due to simple logic. A bridge Officer does not notice that a major defence system is down, wait for 5 minutes and then tell the Captain. The Captain is told immediately. - "it would take more than 1 torpedo to sink an ISD". Very true. That was not my point. It was YOU that brought up the point about cap ships being too easy to destroy. I was simply pointing out that IRL, they CAN be that easy to destroy. - "why would the rebellion risk their only capital ships..." They didn't. As far as the rebellion knew, the Empire new nothing of their plans, or so they thought. The rebels expected only a minor force to be guarding the DS, as far as they thought, they were risking nothing. ------------------ God gave us one mouth and two ears; try to listen twice as much as you speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primarch Posted April 1, 2000 Share Posted April 1, 2000 I give up. I'm wasting my time and I'm not in the mood to carry this on. ------------------ 'For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky'. Wing Commander - Secret Ops Missions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Greg Posted April 1, 2000 Share Posted April 1, 2000 Have you considered the possibility that George Lucas needed to get rid of the Executor somehow. Since it was obiviously so much bigger (and presumably more powerful) than any of the Rebel ships, it couldn't just be ignored. Now, in the first movie (Episode IV), it's established that "the Empire doesn't consider a small, one man fighter a threat," and since this also keys into the heroic David and Goliath theme that Lucas so loves, it makes perfect sense for a single A-wing to take out a super star destroyer. Lucas uses the gimick of a single fighter taking out the invincible bad guy's ship in Episodes I, IV and VI because not only is it convenient, but the only other way to do it would be to make the good guys militarily stronger than the bad guys...what a lousy movie that would be, watching the giant, invincible Rebel war machine run over the puny and unimposing forces of the Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fondas Posted April 1, 2000 Share Posted April 1, 2000 I'd say that Greg has a very strong point ! ------------------ The only place where success comes prior to work, is in a dictionary ! TZG+7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ms. Talon Posted April 1, 2000 Share Posted April 1, 2000 Primarch, don't take this the wrong way because I'm really not trying to be insulting or anything to that nature, but it seems to me that you seem intent on holding on to your arguments regardless of anything anyone else says. I think you are frustrating yourself. ------------------ gototalon@home.com http://members.home.net/gototalon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest garyah99 Posted April 2, 2000 Share Posted April 2, 2000 I agree with Fondas. Greg has a VERY good point. Lucas loves an underdog story, Star Wars is probably the perfect vehicle for that. ------------------ God gave us one mouth and two ears; try to listen twice as much as you speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raptor Posted April 2, 2000 Share Posted April 2, 2000 Given the overall philosophy of the Empire, and taking into account some of the other design choices they made (no shields for TIEs), it's pretty obvious that at the time of the design and contruction of the SD they didn't consider outside forces to be much of a threat, if any, and they also planned heavily on the mutual support of the other facets of their forces. I'd wager from their point of view that it was inconceivable that anyone would have the gall to stand up to and attack a capital ship, and if they did, the 'invincible' TIE fighter shields would protect them from all incoming fighters, because as we know, the imperial pilots are the best in the galaxy. So, small ships are not a threat. When you look at the firepower that an SD can bring to bear on a large target such as another capital ship or space station, the threat from enemy capital ships would also be considered small. The SD would outgun them, so it could rather easily kill an opponent before any siginificant damage was done. If you look at what kinds of imptech were being produced after the Rebellion picked up some steam you'd see that many of these initial flaws were quickly being covered. TIEs were becoming faster or shielded, or both. Gunboats were being produced, Interdictors made their debut. These were all created to cover huge, yet previously unforseen deficiencies in the Imperial forces. Theory is great, but until you have actual combat experience the gaping holes in your plans my not come to light. SDs are incredibly vulnerable to starfighter attack when they don't have their own starfighters out there to provide cover. Interdictors are even worse. I remember the mission with Luke where you got pulled out of hyperspace by the Interdictor, I went right for the blind spot, dodged all fire from the Interdictor as I closed, and once I was there I practically sat still in space and drilled my way through the hull until it ran off (At 1% hull). If there had been any appreciable fighter cover coming after me I couldn't have just hovered there behind the bridge in the TL shadow and just above the engine wash and slowly drilled my way through the backside of the bridge. Just one or two missile equipped TIEs could have stopped me from doing that, but because the fighter screens ignored me, I was free to exploit the glaring weakness of the captial ship. Get in close and they can't hit you, stay in close and they can't outmanuever you. I see no reason why the globes on the top wouldn't be shield generators. They're mounted high over the widest point (nearly) of the ship to provide maximum coverage, so from that standpoint, it's a good engineering decision. The Empire believed they were invincible and nothing would ever get close enough to even get a passing shot off at the ship, let alone the generators, so putting them up there wasn't considered a problem. You can even see shades of this in modern ship design. Look at an aircraft carrier. One could argue that the island sticks way out and is very vulnerable to attack and that putting so much critical equipment there is a stupid thing to do. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but it's assumed that the aircraft that the ship is carrying will keep anything small and agile enough to get close in from getting close in. Same idea with the SDs. It's all about fighter cover. Without it, you're dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nute Gunray Posted April 2, 2000 Share Posted April 2, 2000 It takes five concussion missiles or proton torpedos to destroy an ISD. It was in the first issue of Shadows of the Empire: Evolution. Guri destroys an ISD after launching a series of missiles or torpedoes at one chasing her. I was very surprised that they were that powerful. ------------------ Drive fast, but not fast enough for a high-speed hearing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_Kinnison Posted April 2, 2000 Share Posted April 2, 2000 First of al lthe Aircraft carrier Island is there because of the radar needs to be abel to see over the horizan..the radar may be powerfull enought to cover half of the globe..but you can onle see the part that is above the curve of the earth...that brings the question "Why do you need to cover so much area..in space? and why wouldn't you put snsor globes on the nose of the ship? The X-wing has it sensor in the nosecone, so does the Gun-boat, and probly the E-wing. Autors tend ot tak a few liberties when writing books to forward the plots. 200 torpedoes wasn't enoght to take out a SSD in the X-wing series. It was damaged..but it was still flying...so to speak. so why would 10 missles be able to do the same to a ship that wat 1/12 of its size? if you place those 12 all on the bridge..maybe..or the sensors globes/comm array. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darth Massacator Posted April 2, 2000 Share Posted April 2, 2000 Good gawd enough already!! Can't we just drop the technical stuff and enjoy?? Why must everything be technical, I'm glad I'm not like this. Now don't make me break out my lightsaber and start dueling the lot of ya. ....say, how exactly does the lightsaber remain a constant, set distance? I mean, what keeps it in place?? Yes, I'm a smart-ass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fel Crynyd Posted April 3, 2000 Share Posted April 3, 2000 Try to rember the first time you saw the Movies... I was seven at the time and i watch them in backwards order So i saw ROTJ first and at that time i didn't care if the shelid generators or any thing else they might be worked. I just enjoyed the movie with the explosions and the terbile Death Star... and how our cool and weird looking good guyes (no offence Neil Numb) Flew into this mosnter thing and the Firere explosion and the light sabers battling and the emperor being throen down the shaft to his death. We were all young at the time (most of us) when we saw the movies and rember Mr. Lucas did not make te ships that way because of the tecanal data! he made them that way to tell a stroy! To empose thing on the vewier. Hell I was scared and feared for the lifes when i saw the immp fleet close the trap in ROTJ. That why i preach NOT to MAKE THE MOVIES THE BIBLE!!! It was just to start the crase. Now the new movies i view that in a diffrent light. now that Mr. Lucas has the time and can make all the tecnal data then go ahead! In fact i would love to see a scene where they explane the Star Destroyers and there design!!! but we have to wait to 2006 i think for the last movie. Amen reven ------------------ Commander Fel Crynyd XO of Hope Squadron New Republic Marines Wow, General, I never considered you the frontal assult type! -Starcraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fel Crynyd Posted April 5, 2000 Share Posted April 5, 2000 Ah it feels good when you bring clam to the Storm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scoundrel67 Posted April 5, 2000 Share Posted April 5, 2000 Yes, they are the shield generators and, yes, their vulnerability makes the ISDs too easy to destroy. Imperial arrogance may have been a factor in not hiding/armoring the shield generators, but the older VSDs from the Old Republic also had exposed shield generators. One wonders why this defect wasn't discovered and exploited in the Clone Wars. After a few VSDs were taken out because of this flaw, the next generation of capital ship, the ISDs, certainly would've been upgraded. Why wasn't this design changed? Who knows? Remember, this story was created by the same erratic mind that gave us Episode I, the Pretty Mediocre. That says it all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest garyah99 Posted April 5, 2000 Share Posted April 5, 2000 That's it...I'm never clicking this thread again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_Kinnison Posted April 5, 2000 Share Posted April 5, 2000 D'oh!!!! XWA has the globes being shield generators, but on SW that are SENSOR globes. Okay, now im starting to get annoyed at the apparent density of some ppl. Might be a good i dea for last comments, and close the thread up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AceAzzameen Posted April 6, 2000 Share Posted April 6, 2000 Just wanted to add to Fondas & Ms. Talon's talk about the SD defense in XWA. You're both correct, about many missions lacking fighters to protect their ISD/VSD. And I think it's just another mistake of XWA, another effect of it's rushed & poor production. Everyone remember X-Wing? The first game, that started all this. EVERY VSD/ISD in that game had fighter protection! Missions where you weren't supposed to destroy the capital ship, there would be multiple squads of T/Fs & T/Is that launched if you so much as hit the cap ship with a stray laser blast. And then they were on your ass until you were destroyed, or you stopped what you were doing & fought them off. You had to eliminate several waves of fighter screens before even attempting to take out a SD in the original game. And that's just one of the many problems & missing things with XWA... ------------------ "With the blast shield down, I can't even see. How am I supposed to fight?" Rogue Leader 3 aceazzameen@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest OMEGA_ANUBIS Posted April 6, 2000 Share Posted April 6, 2000 this may have been said already, but i couldnt be bothered to read the entire message: The shield generators would probably be outside to disperse the shield around the body.. think about it. If it was inside the shield would be too. There are probably small devices to reflect the shield around the entire ship, something that would be taken for granted and not that important... but if this were the case, they would be important as you could take a few out and cripple the shields from one side.. perhaps the undeside in a certain area was not shielded anymore as there was no shield being reflected there. This would make a game more tactical if it was included and I agree that bigger ships should be weaker to fighters. This can also be seen in games in the real time strategy genre. Soldiers are so unimportant in the likes of C&C... but in real life they are very important.. a few soldiers would be able to knock a tank out given the proper resources. A grenade to the tracks or something.. This has been slightly rectified in Force Commander, and soldiers are more important to your strategies... after all, when has a general just sent in a hundred tanks and nothing else? Its the same as star wars. You cant just send in a hundred Star Destroyers with no backup... its unrealistic. The idea of all the varying units isnt to look pretty.. they are all designed for a purpose, thats why we need a task force with a wide spread of variety... this should be represented more in games, alas, at the oresent, it simply isnt. Hopefully this new SW Ep1 flight game (Europa is what ive heard its code called) will rectify the situation. and be better on multiplayer than xwa was too =) (prays) ------------------ Fear attracts the fearful, the strong, the weak, the innocent, the corrupt. Fear......Fear is my ally http://omega.clanpages.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Toscan Posted July 4, 2000 Share Posted July 4, 2000 Yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marril Posted July 4, 2000 Share Posted July 4, 2000 1. in X-Wing, there WAS one mission where there wasn't an ungodly amount of fighters in a mission where you weren't supposed to take out the ISD (there were no Vicstars in X-Wing... such a shame). And in the mission where you had to annihilate an ISD, there wasn't that much as well (granted, it took a STUPID amount of missions to get there, but still... [i got the kill shot ]). 2. Forgetting the Assault Frigate, anyone? I skimmed over every reply that had the shield generator problem, and not once had I seem anyone mention the Assault Frigate. It's shield generator is the huge ball underneath it. To prove this, I loaded up a Missile Boat with torps and blasted the generator. Before the thing's shields got to zero, the ball was destroyed, and the thing's shields fell to the ground (err... whatever). I could be wrong about the no replies on that, though... ------------------ Why is it that whenever someone says SOL I am always in trouble... whether it be Standards of Learning or (the other version). I'm always screwed. --Tyais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fondas Posted July 4, 2000 Share Posted July 4, 2000 How on earth did this thread revive ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JC_DeadEye Posted July 4, 2000 Share Posted July 4, 2000 It's alive! Kill it, quick!!!!! ------------------ X-Wing Alliance Upgrade member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primarch Posted July 4, 2000 Share Posted July 4, 2000 If I wasn't going out in ten minutes I might be tempted to have another go...but I am, so I won't ...By the way, as far as I can recall, the Assault Frigates mentioned in any of the novels has never had visible 'shield generators' until the game (though why they bothered is beyond me)...oh yeah, the Bulk Cruiser has them as well. ------------------ 'Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it...' Wing Commander - Secret Ops Missions The Fanfiction Archives New British Empire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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