Star Wars vs. Star Trek: THE MOD!

[Taurian]

star trek ships use there main deflector for the purpose of moving micrometeorites from their path. thats why all of those ships have that blue dish thing pointing forward. its not so much a shield as a "repulsor" beam of sorts. read it in a tech manual when i was a kid....sorry.

[bigbrother25]

I would prefer a complete Star Trek Mod. The war of the Dominion versus the Federation is a big one, also the early Romulan-Earth-War or the Klingon-Romulan war can be a good theme.

For me it is not a good idea off bringing both together.

[bigbrother25]

star destroyers are better than the Enterprise

star destroyers are better than the Enterprise

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star destroyers are better than the Enterprise

Take that you stupid Ewoks!

 

Sorry, man, but which Enterprise? I think that a battle between a Star Destroyer and the Enterprise E would give us only one option, who is winning that battle:

The Enterprise!

Why? Much faster, much better Shields and of course a much better Captain!

Also they can bring in troops via the transportersystem to damage the Destroyer from inner side.

A second point for the Enterprise: The speed and the 360°-shooting range. No "Black point"! So just set the Enterprise behind a Destroyer to kill the Engines and the Destroyer is history. The small Ties are really not a problem for the phasers even if they have no shields!

[MistenTH]

Sorry, man, but which Enterprise? I think that a battle between a Star Destroyer and the Enterprise E would give us only one option, who is winning that battle:The Enterprise! Why? Much faster, much better Shields and of course a much better Captain!

 

That's going to be subjective, and not really convincing. But I agree that the E-E is small enough to hide in a SD's blind spot, and it has sufficiently heavy weapons to severely hurt the SD. The transporters may not work - the SD does have shields.

 

Which brings me to the question of why the inferior ST technology can somehow protect them from micrometeorites without any form of protection?

 

All Trek ships mount a deflector dish that sweep all such objects from the path of travel, and coincidentally deflect laser beams away from the ship as well. However, I believe that SW ships 'lasers' are actually concentrated plasma, so they would not be affected (Romulan ships mount Plasma torpedoes).

 

Anyways, without the need to raise the shields all the time, Trek ships can save a lot of energy.

 

Also SW ships have weapons scattered all over their holes, so they can cover more angles.

 

Romulan and Klingon ships will lose to SW ships in this regard, as they have a lot of front mounted weaponry. However, SW ships also suffer a similar problem - how many mount weapons in their rear arc?

 

Federation ships do not have this problem. Look at their designs. There is little blockage of weapons due to the hull design. Phaser banks are arranged in strips around the entire saucer section, and even the engineering section. Many specifically mount TORPEDO tubes in the rear arc. In short, most Federation ships have a 360 degree x 360 degree (full spherical cover) field of fire.

 

SW definitely has a range advantage. In ST they're always talking about how long it'd take to get from alpha quadrant to delta quadrant, while a SW ship could do it much, much faster

 

Case in point, you can't assume that SW is in a milky-way sized galaxy. It's never stated. Whereas it's obvious in ST that it's in the milky way. The SW galaxy could be smaller for all we know. At any rate, SW is more involved in story telling, and in bringing amazing scenarios closer to us [systems instead of countries! Rodians, Twi'leks, Hutts instead of Asians (human), Europeans (human), Mongols (human).]

 

You forget that Star Wars weapons have a much larger range, in SW close range is 10km or more and in ST they have to be practically on top of eachother

 

How do you know this? In all movies, TV series and such, SW and ST, ships are practically on top of each other. Would you want to watch a battle scene in which the ships never see each other? That would be boring.

 

And technical manual or no technical manual, it is impossible, if you give it a thought, for ships to engage at ranges under 10 km. The International Space Station orbits earth at 7.5 km per SECOND. Imagine ships at combat speeds. They'd be covering LARGE distances even while 'dogfighting'. The only way ANY space combat could take place at close range, regardless of SW, ST or universe would be if the combatants didn't use their engines after matching similar speeds.

 

Also on firepower, take note that all Federation Capital Ships, with the exception of the Akira, Defiant and somewhat the Sovereign, are all designed for deep-space and long-range EXPLORATION. That's right, the famous Galaxy-Class E-D is actually an exploratory ship, a massive 'scout' if you would.

 

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Some Federation Fleet numbers.

Number of Capital Ships Pre-War: 8726

Number of Capital Ships lost in 2 Year Dominium War: 5800

Capital Ships remaining after Dominium War: 4116

 

Size of Federation

Core Worlds: 150

Total Worlds: 15 000, at least.

Size of Territory: 8000 Light Years Across (stated by Picard in 1st Contact)

 

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Imperial Fleet Numbers (Around Battle of Yavin)

Star Destroyers: 20 000

 

Size of SW Galaxy - Unknown

Size of known SW Galaxy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Republic_%28Star_Wars%29

"The New Republic is a mutual self-protection pact among over four hundred sapient species, and an economic partnership between eleven thousand inhabited worlds."

 

--Chief of State Leia Organa Solo

 

The New Republic can be considered smaller than the Empire, and it's a more believable number. Some estimates place the Empire at the size of 1 million worlds. With this number of 11000 inhabited worlds, that's roughly 2 SDs to guard each major world, with more important planets (Coruscant, Corellia, Kuat) having more ships while others (Tatooine, Aldivy) would have none.

 

Given the territorial and fleet sizes, the battles may be barely manageable by the Federation. The Empire simply cannot afford to empty all their systems of ships just to squash the federation. Pirates, the Rebels, warlords and such would gobble up the Empire if it did so.

 

One telling scene is in ROTJ, where even to crush the main Rebel Fleet, the Emperor, even with excessive estimates, brought in less than 20 SDs.

[Admiral Sith]

He didnt need to, the fleet was only their to keep them from escaping. The DSII did a wonderful job of blasting them. Also the Enterprise almost always uses a single Phaser blast, so they can fire at the ship or at the 72 TIE Fighters and some bombers chasing them. Photon Torpedos wouldnt really trouble the ships shields, and it would be to much of a waste to use them against TIE Fighters.

 

But in a case like this Balance > Realism, so lets stop flooding his thread with this.

[TheGreenGoblin]

Also the Enterprise almost always uses a single Phaser blast, so they can fire at the ship or at the 72 TIE Fighters and some bombers chasing them.

 

 

 

 

[Three60]

He did say almost always...

[MistenTH]

The 1st pic is in Nemesis, in which the E-E used multiple phaser blasts practically throughout.

 

The 2nd pic is a generic Galaxy-Class attacking a dominium ship during the Dominium War, and could be taken to be quite common.

 

Also, more cases of multiple phaser fire:

 

 

On a side note, each emitter is capable of firing individually, just that it'd be pretty weak. Fed ships presumably prefer to fire a main beam at a time for concentrated firepower. But since TIEs won't take much to destroy, a Fed ship will still be able to fire a reasonably strong blast at a SD and still knock out fighters. Also, if a Fed ship was to fire all its several thousand emitters all at once, that would make for a pretty light show.

[ScorLibran]

Could Data really take on a thousand Stormtroopers?

He wouldn't have to, as he'd generally find ways to avoid having to face a thousand of them. Super smart + super sneaky + super fast = not ever having to face a massed enemy.

 

Seems like the best strategy for a Star Trek fleet against Star Destroyers - beyond using the Genesis device to annihilate everything in the area - is to stay directly behind it and blast away until the ISD's shields are down, then transport over Starfleet marines to face off with the stormtroopers, and a few special forces guys to sabotage the ship, then fall back to do the same to another enemy ship.

 

The catch is to avoid other enemy ships from covering the rear of the one you're attacking, as face-to-face one or two ISDs or Mon Cals could blow the hell outta most ST ships.

 

What would also be fun in a ST/SW mod - with the Federation against the Empire - would be a race between the development of the Genesis device and the Death Star.

[MistenTH]

The Ultimate Superweapons - The Asteroid Maker and the Ultimate Daisy Farm (yes the Genesis device causes primordial life to begin)

[jedi3112]

StarDestroyers can cover all arcs. If you played TIE fighter you probably noriced the turrets on the back and top of the bridge. Also when considering who would win when talking about StarDestoyers against enterpises there are several of both.

 

There's the Victory StarDestroyer VSD both 1&2

There's the Imperial StarDestroyer ISD both 1&2

There's the Super (couldn't they think of a better name than that) StarDestroyer SSD

There's the Sovereign StarDestroyer SSSD (I think)

There's the Eclipse StarDestroyer

 

Enterprise NX-1;as well ad the normal one and A to E

 

Best SW droids 3PO and R2? I don't think so there's emkay (XWA), HK-47 (KOTOR), several bounty hunters etc.

 

Now let's get back to modding

 

I don't know if transporters can be done in EAW, no boarding and therefore I don't think it has any purpose. Only think it could do though is the landing of ground forces, but maybe not the big stuff.

 

The ST torps are somewhat different from the SW torps, that may be difficult. Main difference is that the ST torps are launched by big ships whereas SW torps are launched by small ships. I think that you'll need to mdofy the shields/torps to keep all torps out and while you're at it give them the proper colors (haven't figured that part out yet) Proton torps are blue not orange, Concussion missiles are orange, they don't look like the ones in-game.

[Admiral Sith]

Also about the SW ranges its in several books, heres a quote from Dark Nest III The Swarm War

 

Then clawcraft from the two trailing squadrons began to drop down to meet them. They seemed to be moving in slow motion, since atmosphere even this high was thick enough to slow down a starfighter and tear it apart if it maneuvered too sharply. But the distances were also smaller--dozens of kilometers instead of hundreds--and within a few heartbeats, the dark specs of the first Chiss fighters came into view and began to rain cannon bolts down on the StealthXs.

 

and the fact that TIE Fighters travel 1200 km/h which is 20 Km a minute. and common sense. If a 1.6km ship and a 1.2 km ship are within 8km of eachother they have a HUGE chance of crashing.

[Three60]

You know, the tech to teleport isn't in SW, so the shields on the SD wouldn't have the power to block them. So just teleport some guys in and take out the shields, some more to take out other things, and just fire proton torpedos at the command deck and the engines. The rest is still there, but it isn't going anywhere.

 

I just want to see Picards face when he gets pulled out of warp from an Interdictor, then having a huge fleet destroy it.

[Admiral Sith]

You do know that lots of highly trained Stormtroopers guard every vital component? Not to mention that when ST happens SW tech would have had thousands if not millions of years to advance?

[TheGreenGoblin]

^^^

 

Well for the sake of debate I think it's clear that we're talking about Galactic Empire vs. Federation.

 

Anyway, I think stormtroopers> Fed Security so I'm not to keen on the prospect of boarding a Star Destroyer. If they can somehow manage to punch a hole in the shields I suppose they could transport photon torpedoes on board, which I imagine would do a good bit of damage. Of course the problem is breaking through those shields in the first place.

[ScorLibran]

Anyway, I think stormtroopers> Fed Security so I'm not to keen on the prospect of boarding a Star Destroyer.

True, but Klingons > Stormtroopers.

 

Also, Federation marines were never really portrayed to any extent in the TV shows or movies, but in the old game Star Fleet Battles - and in a few others since - they're portrayed as tough, well-trained and well-equipped hombres.

 

But again, pure-fantasy > based-on-the-laws-of-current-science when it comes to military conquest, so that'd be a crux of game balance between the two in an EaW mod. One that could be accommodated, though, I'm sure.

[Admiral Sith]

If you think ST is based on the laws of Science, your definatly wrong. Its not even the most realistic sci-fi show on television.

 

* The gravitational field of a star would not cause time travel.

* Black Holes do not magically suck everything in, but can be orbited.

* They constantly use the wrong units, such as units of power instead of energy.

* The configurations of mass/energy required for warp drive require large amounts of negative-energy matter to be present.

* The gravitic space-time distortions required by warp drive would not propagate fast enough to make the idea worthwhile.

* Tachyons are widely described and discussed in Star Trek. In Star Trek, they are described as a peculiar type of particle which always travels faster than light. However, unless something has happened within the last 5 years, no one has ever detected a tachyon. They are a mathematical possibility, not a confirmed physical phenomenon. Furthermore, tachyonic matter simply refers to matter which travels faster than light- there need not be any particular type of particle which exhibits this behaviour- the superluminal speed itself is what defines the tachyonic nature of something.

* If shields in ST worked like they are supposed to, they would render the ship invisible

* There is no way the ship can be transparent while retaining the ability to see its surroundings. This is because you cannot receive photons, or any other information-carrying particles, without intercepting those particles. If you intercept a particle, you alter its properties. This is a fundamental problem, and it cannot be resolved. A cloaked ship should be blind, just as it is invisible.

* Hundreds of times in TNG Picard orders the vessel to turn off its impulse engines, and appears to "stop". However, there is no such thing as a "full stop" in space. A full stop would be the achievement of near-zero velocity, but with respect to what? The galactic plane? It is spinning. The nearest system? That's pretty arbitrary. The nearest planet? That's even more arbitrary. The fabric of space-time itself? It's moving too. The location of the Big Bang? If you stop with respect to the origin of the universe, you will be travelling at incredible speed relative to the Milky Way galaxy and everything in it.

* Time travel is completly impossible. Time travel paradoxes occur often in science fiction, and they generally lead to the conclusion that it must not be possible to travel back in time and affect history. Yes, I know, there are a lot of silly sci-fi explanations for this, such as "the act of time travel creates an alternate timeline" etc, but they're almost worse than the paradox itself. Some scraps of dialogue suggest that time travel in Star Trek subscribes to this "alternate timeline" idea. If this is the case, then new universes are being spawned constantly, and an infinite number of "parallel universes" may exist. This is frankly silly, since it suggests that whole universes spring into being each time someone time travels. But it appears to be the Trek belief structure, since numerous episodes have revolved around these "parallel universes," and in fact, "Parallels" involved an accidental merging of parallel universes where 285,000 Enterprise-D's all appeared in the same place. These stories verge on the ridiculous- even a timeline which has diverged from our own hundreds of years ago is somehow presumed to miraculously develop in such a way that the same handful of people end up in the same place in the present, although with different backgrounds. The more Star Trek explores time travel, the less credible it becomes.

* On maximum setting, a Type II hand phaser can vapourize a 50kg adult female (eg. "Vengeance Factor"), or an 80kg adult male (dozens of incidents), without any excess energy in either case. If it carries enough energy to vapourize an 80kg adult male, then where does the extra energy go when it vapourizes a 50kg adult female? Why doesn't it excavate a crater under the victim's feet?

*Phasers have recoil and momentum sometimes, but not other times. A phaser hit can occasionally lift someone right off his feet and throw him backwards, but other times, someone like Jake Sisko can hold a phaser rifle awkwardly in one hand and fire enough blasts to cause a cave-in, without any noticeable recoil at all.

*Phasers have heating effects sometimes, but not other times. A phaser can be used to heat a rock or vapourize a small quantity of material, but when it vapourizes a person, the effect is non-thermodynamic (conservation of energy is not conserved, conservation of mass is not conserved).

* . No vaccine will ever make your body immune to radiation, any more than it can allow you to walk into a blast furnace, shrug off a baseball bat to the head, or bounce bullets off your chest. Radiation "Vaccines" are located in several episodes.

* Q? Im not even going to start

* Not to mention all the times they are close enough to a Star to easily destroy them, yet they stay alive for hours.

[MistenTH]

Also about the SW ranges its in several books, heres a quote from Dark Nest III The Swarm War

Admiral Sith, the books aren't too reliable and vary a lot. Also, read my post. A TIE fighter travelling 20km/minute is SLOW. Our low-tech INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION travels at 450km/minute.

 

From Rogue Squadron:

A sharp squeak from whistler alerted Corran to the Warspite's arrival (considered long range). "Great, eleven klicks aft."

 

"Sir, our lasers are zeroed at 250 metres, which is a little short for ground attack missions."

 

"Ships have to close to two and a half klicks to get a firing solution for a proton torpedo..."

 

StarDestroyers can cover all arcs. If you played TIE fighter you probably noriced the turrets on the back and top of the bridge. Also when considering who would win when talking about StarDestoyers against enterpises there are several of both.

 

Games are not the best source of canon data. In the Jedi Knight Series, you have the heroes destroying hundreds of dark Jedi AFTER balance is brought back to the Force.

 

A few fighters can blow up a capital ship in Rogue Squadron etc.

 

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And on how reality based Trek is, I quote myself.

 

Sometimes, it's really difficult to compare. Simply because the people who created these universes did so to explore certain issues and ideas, not from a mathematical and engineering standpoint.

 

On your point on shields, this is from the TNG technical manual. On a side note, I have no idea what it means, but it implies that the shields are 'smart', and seems to imply gravitational and spatial effects that probably won't render the ship invisible. (whee Technobabble galore)

 

"The shield system provides the modern Starship with its principle protection against both violent natural phenomena and enemy weapons fire. Most shield systems are composed of highly focused spatial distortions which contain an energetic graviton field. The shield itself is projected by a set of transmission networks located on the hull of the ship; when matter or energy strikes the shield, field energy is concentrated at that point to create an intense localized spatial distortion."

 

"Impacts on the shield cause Cerenkov radiation to be released, often perceived as a flash of colour which "lights up" the shield, rendering it briefly visible. To an observer it appears that the intruding object bounces off the shields - in fact the spatial distortion becomes so great that the path of the object is radically altered, and to an zero dimensional observer on the incoming object it appears that it is the starship which has suddenly changed location while his/her course is unchanged"

[ScorLibran]

If you think ST is based on the laws of Science, your definatly wrong.

As I said, it's science fiction based on real science. Energy generation by matter/anti-matter collision; impulse drives - which are either fusion or ion drives - the latter of which we just sent to Pluto not long ago; even transporters have roots in modern science theory.

 

Believe me, much of Star Trek is based on current scientific knowledge. By comparison, the "force" is practically religion. And religion made real > theoretical science any day of the week. The latter has bounds, the former does not.

 

Here's some more info...

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1213_021213_tvstartrek.html

http://ssdoo.gsfc.nasa.gov/education/just_for_fun/startrek.html

 

The second article summarizes Star Trek as a mix of real and imaginary science. And that's my point. "Based on real science" means a combination of what we have today and much of what we speculate we'll have tomorrow based on the advances we're making today. After all, handheld computers were laughably imaginary in the days of the first computer...but existed as intelligent speculation based on real science.

 

Oh, and a few years ago we discovered the planet "Vulcan", so that's one more "Star Trek advance" we've made.

[Admiral Sith]

As i have said before, lets stop hijacking this mans thread please?

[ScorLibran]

Don't be mad. We're on topic: How to achieve story faithfulness and feasible game balance in a SW/ST mod.

[Admiral Sith]

No, this is a poll about whether or not people like the idea. This is totally off topic

[ScorLibran]

So basically this comes down to "tweaking up" the entities in the Star Trek universe to make it comparable to the one of Star Wars in order to have any semblence of game balance. Right? Sounds like it's going to take some straight out fudging of the ST specs to make this turn out the way people would want.

 

The alternative would be to "tweak down" the entities in the SW universe. And I'm sure no one wants that.

[MistenTH]

The fact we're talking about balancing SW and ST without degenerating in flame wars indicates that we are very interested in this mod. Lots of ideas here for the mod maker to pick out too.

[Admiral Sith]

We were spirling, and its still off topic.