Kurgan Posted October 8, 2005 Share Posted October 8, 2005 Perhaps instead of freezing or slaping a player, Kurgan gave me a great idea. Since slapping or freezing is somewhat immoral, and slaps can be avoided, why not make a command to manually make someone drop a saber for that moment and display a warning (and they'll read it because their not hacking/slashing away). lukeskywalker is right about the dropping saber. It smacks too much of "punishment." People keep saying that "lamers" IGNORE all text on their screen always so you have to "get their attention" by "punishing" them. So they demand more and more "intrusive" methods of "getting someone's attention" until we have electric shocks running through their mouse pads or something. The old standby "putting big colored text in the center of their screen for several seconds" I think is plain enough. It is true that in OJP right now, when a person is team switched (automatically) a big set of white text appears in the middle of their screen (for only about 1 second though, I think it should be a bit longer) and at the top of the screen (for only a split second as normal white text) telling them what happened, and yet 90% of people still yell "wtf?" when it happens or say "what's going on?" or "why was I switched?" and they usually try to switch back 2-4 more times before they finally give up. Afterwards about 1/3rd of the people disconnect, often after flaming ME or the server for it! So those people are obviously ignoring the text, so maybe people do ignore the text in general. But they don't ignore chat... which is odd. So I don't know. But I don't think there's any way to force people to read it, short of punishing them, and that is simply not acceptable a reason. And It'd be really cool to introduce admin ranks, but not for abusive commands. Certain admin ranks can have access to certain server cvars, messaging techniques, and bans and kicks. "Sub admins" are a very popular thing, but also problematic. What ends up happening is that they become a "reward system." The admin takes the people who likes (his pals) and makes them all sub admins. Then there is a rivalry who who gets to be a sub admin, then a full admin, etc. People get mad if they are not "promoted" and they fight over it, etc. People try hard to become a "sub admin" by sucking up. With the old system of just "one admin, he's got full control" this kind of thing doesn't happen, because people don't see all these sub admins running around (usually of lesser quality than the admin him/herself because they were handed out like candy or to their casual player friends with different ideas) and think they "have a chance." I know using IRC isn't the best example, but there they constantly threaten to ban people who "beg for ops." This is precisely because so many people beg for ops, and they do this because "giving out ops" is so easy and effortless. So NO, let's NOT do levels of admins. That's just asking for a big long popularity contest drama and too many cooks spoiling the broth. If you have somebody you utterly trust, and make them your second admin, that's fine. But this way you better trust them, period. And it won't seem like you're just giving it out to make yourself popular with the noobs. If we can't punish someone for being in the server, would it be possible to make a name based ban? A name based ban would be even less useful than an IP based ban. The same person could change their name and come right back. Or are you talking about certain names offending you? You could ban the use of the name "Padawan" I suppose. But banning based on names seems kinda silly. Ban their IP range and they can never come back unless they login through a proxy (in which case you can ban their proxy range) or get a new ISP. I know people who get banned constantly and they are still able to come on. And sometimes when its really bad, when we ban the subnet, they manage to get in another way (such as through a backup dialup conn. or friends computer). Theoretically it's impossible to stop a person from coming back, period. They can ALWAYS find another computer in the world. They can always sign up for another ISP. The point is that through minimal effort, the admin makes VASTY HARDER for the troll to come back. They have to do all the work. Sure, somebody with two ISP's might feel more apt to cause trouble because he has a "backup" but after his two "tries" are up, he's history. Eventually it becomes just too much effort for him to keep coming back, when it's so much simpler to just hop onto another server and start he process over. It's not worth his while anymore. That's why it works. Besides, if you ban his name, he can just use another name! There are an infinite number of names he can use, right? All he'll do is ban all the popular or types of names that people can use, ruining it for them. How would you like it if somebody banned all the names of popular Star Wars/Anime/Comic Book/and Sci Fi movie characters? That's the bulk of the names people use in JA right there (the rest being mostly personal names or clan tags that are unpronouncable in real life). While you paint this is an "ultimate solution" I don't see it working any better than what we currently have. Also, it should have a mechanism to not allow it to be dropped in duels, when its already dropped and when a player is idle (because then that person isn't really doing anything). But how do you differentiate from a player who is simply idle vs. a player who is idling for the purpose of protection? A guy getting up to take a leak, who lagged out, is talking on the phone or going to get a beverage/food, clean his room, go to class, whatever and left his character going... he returns to find his character dead, but the chatter or person changing their settings gets to be protected? Maybe you're thinking if they type something at least every 2 seconds or something they are protected? It's still pretty arbitrary. I don't see why we have to bend over to protect chatters, honestly. And saber off does not entitle a person to any sort of protection either. I mean really. The real way to stop this kind of thing would be to disable chat (except in Spectator mode). People could only use voice communication or binds to talk. But nobody wants that either. Sometimes you just "have" to say something. But nobody is obligated to stop their game just because you're talking... So really all this stuff, is just leading back down the well beaten path of the other abusive admin mods... with their sub admins, their chat protection, their anti-laming rules, their abusive commands.... all of which give people the sense of entitlement that the game revolves around them and only them, and anyone who just plays to have fun or compete is somehow a "lamer" and must be punished, while the "honorable" and the "chatterbox" get all the perks. Sorry to sound rhetorical and polemic there, but I just don't see any good coming of this. I used some examples to show why the "punishment" model isn't even the best solution that already exists, but perhaps "no solution" really is better than any of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 8, 2005 Share Posted October 8, 2005 Actually, Kurgan, another idea is to make them invincible after 10 seconds in ONLY FFA SABER Servers. That way no other gametypes would be affected. The other commands should be scrapped. Just let the player stand there and slash at them, it won't matter... none of this drop your saber stuff is needed. You're right, this would be the best solution. And of course as soon as you moved, turned on your saber, used a force power or other action, your invincibility shuts off. Though I'm still iffy on it, period. What does Razor think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarafudge Posted October 8, 2005 Author Share Posted October 8, 2005 Hey man just because your not going to use admin levels doesn't mean others won't. We've had alot of experience with admins, and we choose only the responsible who will not distribute/abuse it. ADMIN LEVELS = YES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 8, 2005 Share Posted October 8, 2005 about admin levels, I'm not fundimentially against them. I just feel that there has to be a good arguement for why we need them and what they should do. Care to elaberate on what you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Really you don't need admin levels with OJP- there aren't any commands to use except ban/kick. Its not like you need a sub admin to slap anyone or something. I can't stand honor admins. They WALK (literally) around and patrol servers looking for "trouble" like they are cops or something. If you challenge them to a duel they WALK away. If you talk to them they WALK away. If you kill them they spam admin commands on you, like sleep then proceed to "kick" you around, as a display of skill... and justice... and honor... or something stupid... makes no sence what-so-ever. [/rant] Though I'm still iffy on it, period. Well, truthfully things shouldn't drop to this level (its stupid) Like I said earlier, they will see ojp adding minor honor enhancments, invade this board and ask for sleep, slay, and only God knowns what else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Well, I can possibly see it for if you want people to have kick/ban abilities but not be able to change server settings. Anyway, I don't really see it as much of an issue because I'm not going to be implimenting an admin system anytime soon. This would only be in the case that someone actually submitted something like that to OJP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Uh oh...! Seriously, this will just lead to endless "subadmin promotion" begging, and crap. This was your red flag: The problem is that Slider is becoming more and more of a "goody goody two shoes'" person and that just won't work for proper administration of a server. So it's a "problem" that Slider is making his mod less abusive because of his attack of conscience about the crappiness that formerly was at the heart of his mod! And this is a PROBLEM?? Augghh, he just doesn't get it at all. The abusiveness is the problem! We don't need to emulate that! It would taint everything about OJP... period. These guys who want their "admin capabilities" can use any of the dozen other mods that have them, they don't need to twist OJP into a copy-cat of the crap mods from the "bad old days!" You've got to lay down the law on this one Razor, they won't give up until they've got it all "back" (their abuse commands from JA+)! Must stamp it out, stamp it out! NooooOOOOOOOOOooooo!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 ^I agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarafudge Posted October 9, 2005 Author Share Posted October 9, 2005 I'm talking about limited abilties to change rcon settings, restart maps, etc... It's not bad, its not going to end your short little lives, its just a feature that you can choose to use. It's not my fault that you can't handle administrative access with some maturity, thats all it takes to ward off beggars. This is in no way abusable in any way... and its the only way to keep the server in order without giving out rcon which is a security risk. And don't give me that stuff about not giving access out because I don't have time to monitor the server 24/7, but different users in shifts can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 It's not that "we" can't handle it (me? luke? razor?) but rather the masses have shown they are unable to handle it. Why repeat those mistakes? That's all I really have to say about that. On our server we have three people that run it. Lath, Cannoli and myself. We each have full administrative access. I trust these guys enough that they can run the show when I'm not there, and we all do it for Razor in the end, since it's his server, his mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 This is in no way abusable in any way... and its the only way to keep the server in order without giving out rcon which is a security risk. And don't give me that stuff about not giving access out because I don't have time to monitor the server 24/7, but different users in shifts can. Other than having someone screw up your server settings, what's the security risk in giving out rcon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarafudge Posted October 10, 2005 Author Share Posted October 10, 2005 Well if they can't handle it, its not really OJP's or my problem. Really its their loss.. If someone with rcon access incidently got agitated, a person could potentially lock everyone out, change the rcon password, use the server for their own purposes (possibly to degrade itself), to harass the players... and to ultimately abuse them, isn't that what were all "trying" to avoid? If RCON were accidently displayed in the server, no doubt everyone would abuse it before it could be changed. Shall I go on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 Really its their loss.. I think the real loss is loss of a good game, because of honorz, and stupid mods, like JA+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 That seems like a rare situation to have to worry about. You shouldn't be passing out admin powers to people that would abuse them in the first place. As for getting your server "taken over" that's just when you contact the server host and have them reset everything back to the way it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarafudge Posted October 12, 2005 Author Share Posted October 12, 2005 Could there be an "ampsay" like command implemented on the mod? It would have 4 options, the string to be said and how many seconds it would be said for and who. (-1 being everyone, or some other alias for everyone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 I'm sure it's possible to do the directional speaking like that but I don't know if you can determine how long the text stays on the screen from the server side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Yeah, a lot of people change the text timing on their PCs. Their PC settings over ride yours. In fact, a lot of "Lamers" get tired of hearing you guys yell, so they just set the time on screen to less than a second or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarafudge Posted October 12, 2005 Author Share Posted October 12, 2005 JA+ does it with the motd, isn't this the same thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 I have no idea. Don't play JA+ much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 No, its not. Thats text printed on the screen. Your talking about Chat. Thats different, I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Speaking of text on the screen, those "System messages" (the big text in the center of the screen like say when you get team switched) should have a cvar for it.. I mean by default it only stays on the screen for a way too short a time. I know people will still stupidly claim not to see it, but still. I barely have a chance to read it before it's gone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarafudge Posted October 13, 2005 Author Share Posted October 13, 2005 In our server what we do is broadcast it 3 or 4 times in a row to get it to stay up there, but theres gotta be a more elegant way. lukeskywalker1, I'm not talking about the chat messages, I'm talking about the motd. In JA+ when you join a game the MOTD shows with a countdown from 5 seconds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 13, 2005 Share Posted October 13, 2005 Yeah. In reality the "motd" (Message of the Day) is the text that shows up on your LOADING screen. The stuff that nobody ever reads EVER, which is why nobody ever knew I was the admin of my own server. (Welcome to KURGAN'S MEATGRINDER!) In other games they usually have a type of "motd" that actually displays ONSCREEN as you're entering the actual game, and disappears after a few seconds. That's what mods like JA+ do. The "Big Chat Messages" (for lack of a better term) that appear in the center of your screen in OJP disappear far too quickly. The server needs to be able to set how long they stay onscreen, for EVERYONE (so users can't "mute" them). Regular chat is no big deal. "Server" chat is usually ignored by people, but not always... But definately make the "big chat messages" (including the "message of the day" which is in that same big a$$ font) stay onscreen longer than they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarafudge Posted October 24, 2005 Author Share Posted October 24, 2005 More Features Requested: 1.) Name based bans and banned name wildcards (for banning those annoying server raids and stopping them in their tracks, and making sure that they don't come back with other names) 2.) Censors that actually sensor the text in question other than not displaying it at all, like on forums. This function would have a text file where you would define the words in question and what to replace it with. 3.) Spree messages that can be customized to display messages on multiple kills.. (possible?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 I do miss the leads and sprees from Q3 (though UT's were better)... it's best when you have a voice calling it out though. Star Wars sound samples perhaps? "Impressive... most impressive" "Let the hate flow through you!" etc. A customizable swear filter might be nice. I see banning names as more useless than banning IP's... as there's an infinite number of names a person can use. And if the person is an undesirable type, what does it matter the name he uses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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