Jedi verse Jedi, Sabers Only

[Sifl]

How about this:

 

Have fast but weak attacks and strong but slow attacks. The strong attacks have more wind-up leaving you open for a quick hit. But the strong attack can break a block and leave the defending player open for a subsequent attack, a weak attack can never break a block.

 

I'd also like to see stuff like rolls and flips... but something I don't think anyone's mentioned- what about locking sabers? Two jedi with sabers locked, pushing against each other... anyone play Bushido Blade? You'd get locked together and then keep hitting your attack button over and over again until you knocked the other guy down. Pretty cool.

 

As for automatic blocking, I'm torn. I'd like the control, but an extra button could be a pain in the ass... maybe if they made it an option?

[SlowbieOne]

The stong and weak attacks is a good idea, but button mashing??? What is this Nintendo?!!?? LOL

 

Honestly the button mashing parts of games really ticked me off.

[Moses]

I agree. Pressing a button repeatedly takes a lot of fun out of the game, not to mention a lot of energy out of my finger.

[Randle Crow]

Blocking in JK was not based on an AI system it depended on where the cross hairs were. If you placed the cross hairs on a enemy that was shooting at you while you had the saber out the laser would be blocked 100% of the time. That is if only one enemy was shooting. It was more of a natural recation like a sheild then an AI. Blocking the saber worked the same way you had to be looking directly at the enemy sometimes it blocking secondary fire was impossiable.

 

The adding of a block button to JO would make the game superior JK. It is logical evilution of the game.

[StephenG]

Jedi Knight is a fast game and i think a blocking button will make the game slower.

[Millions o' Monkeys]

geeze i hate reading long posts like that...thats why i didnt

 

 

ive thought about this alot and i cant actually think of how to make a good saber sytem. you know so its not like jk but also so it dosnt end up being close to impossible to hit the opponent

 

well its in good hands...(hear that raven im kissing your ass )

[Kurt Plummer]

People seem to think of sword work as 'block and attack' where both sides are 'trading' roles.

 

When in reality it might be better to think of it as both sides being offensive and diametrically opposed so that each is moving towards a common goal of breaking past the other's guard by changing 'leverage'.

 

Defensive moves are then only to be considered a form to alter position, reach and height plus blade angles of subsequent attack against an opponent who hold an advanatage in the current form.

 

According to the Masters, you shouldn't 'manually' separate the two into definitive elements because the switch between attack and defend will never happen (in your mind) quickly enough.

 

No matter how many buttons and mode options you have.

 

This is especially so when fighting with weapons as deliberately sharp as a Katana (and hence a saber, more specific massed weapon 'difficulties' in the SW universe) because you _cannot_ afford to meet edge to edge in more than the most oblique fashion.

 

Hence you 'bat' the weapons and fight head high and dual handed with the objective being purely to push through the (lateral) clash-of-flats and score a head tap.

 

Now if you switch to some of the killing arts (anything with a jutsu after it) you start to see more 'tennis' combinations where the blades come lower and there is switching between forehand blocks to bring the fight to a given range and then side and angled 'backhand' cuts to finish (and pass thru) the engagement **quickly**, drawing or sweeping and occasionally stabbing before switching back to what can only be described as a 'hack' to inflict deep slashing wounds (the kind that split torsos, very nasty).

 

You will also see MUCH more emphasis on 'testing' moves that are actually disabling kills (and multiple weapons to assist in this including shaken and small onblade knives/darts) to wrist/forearm, thighs/groin and knees, temples, eyes, and even ankles before lethal attacks at the neck or midbody.

Yet more 'unsportsmanlike' moves that you will NEVER seen in SW but which are in fact preferred because the targets are hard to cover and easily damaged beyond 'will to fight' overcome.

 

Comparing Shinai which sting with Bokkan which crush and Katana which butcher is silly yet you can bet (with all the safety and insurance requirements for actors and next-sequel to consider) that there is not much 'playing the edges' of the weapon envelope.

 

THIS is why, even when you see them 'really go at it' in EP.6 and EP.1 it is always to a basic center, slow and braced, contact point, never around the guard or against the limbs (yeah yeah, ESB) bearing up the dance/sword movements.

 

With this in mind, how realistic do you want it?

 

Go to full realism and the first mistake will be the last, even for a Jedi. There will be no grunted 'Ouuuwwwhh!' and short term stiffening because this meter long blow torch weapon will inflict shock and destructive damage like you can't believe.

 

And again, if it follows reality, people will be VERY tentative in the way they close, batting at the very edges of the envelope because they instinctively KNOW that there is going to be a much higher risk of an enemy attacking whatever is easiest, quickest, and least risky-to-reach.

 

Where this extends to manual attack-defense with such a firey horror, you will find yourself 'burnt once but never shamed again'.

And this too will effect the drama people seem to want in MP/online.

 

I would also like to point out that one of the biggest gripes of JK was that you couldn't close with blaster equipped targets, whether running or walking, without eating energy fire damage in-process (centering crosshairs in external view doesn't happen and is of questionable utility even in 1st person, IMO).

 

Add to this the limited perspective viewing and indeed /awareness/ (walls block sightline) and it was blatantly obvious in 'Batter Up!!, TPM The Game' that if you want a manual defensive blocking capability it had bloody well better be against the dumbest of 'up front' (no ambush) threats firing across a limited azimuth spread and very slowly or in limited (co-timed, shared deflect) bursts with low numbers of total shooters.

 

I would instead rather have the smartest possible Imps and other 'gun users' and 360` global awareness of super quick blocking, even as I move around the fight arena.

 

IMO, this means 'full auto' (to literally reflect the weapons rate of fire they are used against) and _perfect_ projectile-blocking, while you bring yourself close enough to 'get even'.

 

Either through standard running or an 'enter fight' translative movement (leap, or Jedi Jerk Speed ala the EP.1 scene with the Destroyers).

 

I like the idea of fighting with the Force Depletion blockign effect and would say that if you move to a linear graph (longer total 'strength bar') and most importantly _faster recharge_ it could definitely be made to work.

 

But I still say that if you want to fight another blade wielder, you must think of defensive work purely as 'tilting' the enemies blade for subsequent reattack in the same move.

 

That means auto-D(efense)-to-manual-O(ffense) with all the 'variety' (difficulty) of breaking past an enemies defensive web being inherent to analyzing the pattern of his bladework matching an attack style to it and then 'adding a flourish at the end' (manual final attack) to score the kill through the created hole.

 

This works well with my Kata system because it allows multiple cuts of a given type to both 'discover' that weakness and deplete the enemies blocking Force Strength too fast to regenerate.

 

While giving you the SKILL option of a quick-kill interrupt of the form with a modification blow based on your insight.

 

While Properly Programmed Katas, also mean you are hitting so skillfully that you never lose the 'flow' of combat dominance and suffer a leverage reversal sufficient to let the initiative go back to the other guy's attacks.

 

One last thing to consider: A Master will beat a Novice.

 

_Regardless_ (say 95% of the time).

 

Though admittedly simplifiedm if you think of it in terms of Martial Arts Belts the MtoA ratio is anything with 2 or more belts between them.

 

The (relative) expert will simply know more moves, be more insightful and waste less energy in his own motions (Force, whatever) to be altogether more slippery yet 'directed' in his total combat system.

 

With a bladed weapon, this almost always means death.

 

In the SW case, you might think of even Sabre fighting as being more like blocking blaster bolts, simple and easy and automatic for anyone you have a Kata (blade hit or form style) advantage over such that you CAN HAVE that 'emphasis on the Preferred Weapon of the Named Game' (sabre vs. sabre) with quick kills allowing you to 'also fight the next guy' instead of treating each encounter with a Jedi as a singular boss-monster (end level) of exclusive concentration.

 

How many of you could beat Jerec with a force of 5 Imps using heavy weapons to help him?

 

I thought so.

 

How many of you could beat Yun with 10 Imps using conventional blasters?

 

Probably rather more though it would still be viciously difficult.

 

The difference being the speed and 'style' (smoothness/ease) with which you dispatch your _primary threat_ to turn and deal with the secondary ones on a coaxis-deflect line.

 

If you design a level well, you will find sufficient numbers of 'less than or equal to you' sabre opponents to BECOME a master while there is nothing shameful in refusing a combat you can't win.

 

Nor a reason to insert an opponent who beats the crap out of you until you (dice toss learning curve) randomly succeed and move on.

 

'Difficult Encounters' might then be _combinations_ of sabre users (Quigon and Obiwan) or shooters and sabres (Imps+Jedi) or whatever and for each difficult encounter you would gain another kata or another programming space in the kata line or even simply 'more Force' (slower drain) so that when you finally came up against that 'Master Class' opponent you had the skills to make it a battle royalle of equal skill sets.

 

One last thing: I obviously use my computer for more than just Gameboy Leisure. I _do not_ want to 'mash' ANY key on my board.

 

If I need more defense (blocking movements) let me switch the cruise control to that mode. If I want more offense then let me increase weight that the auto-AI gives that ability as a function of Force-Use. Simply, elegantly, one-time press.

 

 

Kurt Plummer

 

 

LINKS-

Pretty Fair Explanation Of Fencing and Accompaniment Weapons Development http://users.aol.com/maist/fence-1.htm http://users.aol.com/maist/fence-2.htm

http://users.aol.com/maist/fence-3.htm

[Kurt Plummer]

Okay, now that I've found a copy...

 

'WHY I HATE ART OF THE LIGHT SABRE, 101'

 

There are TWO text file inclusions with the zip, one of which says readme, both of which are actually more like a credits list and license agreement.

 

There is not ONE shred of key-this-now tactical instruction!

 

Even with a basic understanding of the download page jpeg screen snaps diagrams (why can't these be shrunken to fit ON the page?) the 'flowingness' just isn't there because, as I suspected, you have to close up under fire and there are no guarded block-bolt-lunges once you do (literally to push a burning torch into their faces) rather it's same 'ol, same 'ol, with sideways twist-to-strafe or raised-guard, single arm, slashes that buy you a free blaster bolt, every time (so damn SLOOOOOOW!:-(.

 

Z-key attack, with it's funky Obiwan 'spin and slash' seems to have gotten yet /shorter/ in effective lethal distance! Arrrrghhhh!

 

The 'model' key which I've got set to L (have to bind all of these, with no damn instructions at all to say so) _doesn't work_. Where are all these supposed new skins? I've got both .goo's activated within Patch Commander...

 

Sabre on/off is okay but 'Combat Stance' seems worthless (hood up or down on my bathrobe.... Whoooopeeee, a 'convertible'! ;-(.

 

F10 'Force Sabre Fighting' seems to be highly un-uniform in it's use. I've faced down a single stormtrooper with the key 'mashed' and gotten hit every time while with the key /not pressed/ I got about 50-60% blockage. F-orce key on it's own sometimes doesn't seem to call up the power icon.

 

At the same time, I can be facing about 4-5 Imps in the second plateau area (with the rail detonator gunner in the balcony above the triple layer room) of the initial MOTS level and find myself blocking every darn shot from impossible angles but unable to get out of the key press loop long enough to get in some strokes. Uh-duhhhhh?????

 

Using FSF means no attacks that I can see and you oughta try FSF blocking, WASD maneuvering (different slashes, sometimes, I think), with _one hand_, while 'swinging' the mouse FOV with the other (btw, why does my V-key not work? This happened even before the install of AOTL).

 

Using the IAMAGOD cheat code My Force Heal doesn't seem to work. Not that it's not changed (as promised) it simply /isn't there at all/.

 

With either ; ' + F or as a binded single key.

 

This is a 'Major Pain' when I am trying desperately to stay alive long enough to master this new fighting system.

 

Sorry for my extended B&M about this 'different game' from JKO but I wanted to give it a shot so I could judge based on personal experience before suggesting that it NOT be in the new version. Yikes...

 

 

Next: Sabre-X anyone? Kurt Plummer

[StephenG]

Kurt, u could get a column in a Jedi Knight magazine...if there is one