met my first "warze"er

[KzK Chuan]

I just want to say that the police do care, and the companies do care. there are now groups that are looking for the ip addresses of people who distribute software/music and call the ISP that provides for them and also the police that are in that area. Close friend at an ISP daily kills ip addresses till they remove all such contents from computer(at least disable sharing of the items) on the first call they recieve. as for the PD, thats my employment.

 

There are the users, and the distributers. which does one go for in a drug bust? its a matter of getting the big guys. and no, they arent high profile cases, intentionaly.

 

for software USERS, a program that someone downloads like 3d studio max, if its a home user that is using it to play and do some personal stuff, thats one thing, but where they get people is people publishing work using a software to make money and not paying for it. hence why the large companies get audited on their software.

 

even with that all said, i might tend to aquire software before hand and try it before i buy it when they are idiots and dont have a good demo, or their demo is some pre release junk that doesnt represent the game well at all. i would always go and buy the software if i like it, if i dont, well i would of just saved myself 2 trips to the store.

[madrebel]

Originally posted by Ulic Quel Droma

Um Software piracy is a big thing, cops WOULD care about it

no they wouldnt. Its like a cop busting a guy with a joint. big deal thats just a citation. now busting a guy with 10 pounds of weed is another thing.

 

its even worse though cause a normal street cop cant even bust you for software piracy its out of their jurisdiction.

[madrebel]

look you all are really blind about how the scene works. there have been MANY cases where software developers have been the ones to leak their own programs to the warez scene in hopes of future sales. games usually dont happen that way though.

 

i have a problem with people downloading something, liking it, and not paying for it. But i dont have any moral issues with trying before buying.

 

You cannot prove to me that me downloading a game i wouldnt buy outright, on private bandwidth. Then installing that game. Then playing that game, seeing that i dont like the game. Uninstalling the game and not wasting my money on it. This does not prevent that company from making money since i wouldnt have bought the game in the first place without seeing if i like it. A Demo is rarely enough to convince me to buy.

 

Games like JK2 are a no brainer though. I have had this game pre-ordered, paid in full, since lucas first started taking orders for it.

[monkey jedi]

I PITY THE FOOL WHO USES WAREZ!!!!!!!!!!

[Superfly0590]

If the software industry hadn't fixed it where you could not return a crappy game it would be different. I *will* not buy *any* software until I have seen and touched it on my PC. Game reviewers are paid-off so that's not an option. The fact that 90% of these $30-$50 dollar games are pure crap with no re-play value (some with no play value) only makes it more justifiable. Just name another industry where a dis-satisfied customer is REFUSED a refund? They have done it to themselves.

 

Also, the software distributers are the PRIMARY leaks to the warez community. Here's a quote from a warez group application:

 

" D******E Application Information

 

You think you can contribute to the scene too? You have one or ore talents in:

 

- supplying NEW unreleased games (maybe you work at a game/util magazine, courier delivery firm, newspaper, game press/marketing company, distributor, publisher, duplicator, tv/radio show, shop, warehouse, store etc.) You do not need a fast internet connection for the above!"

 

As to all you hypocrites on your soapboxes preaching about how horrible warez is: YOU ARE FULL OF CRAP! If you expect *anyone* to believe that all you games are legit (much less all your software) you are stupider than you take us to be for believing it. I do agree that people who hoard it and do not pay for software they regularly use and enjoy are stealing. I do not condone this. I do however feel that the warez folks have saved me alot of money on crappy software I would have purchased only to hate.

 

I am a programmer, so I know the amount of work involved. If you use it, pay for it. Do not feel bad about warezing to evaluate software. It's the only way.

 

--Bring on the flames, hypocrite!

[waxdart]

Originally posted by madrebel

You cannot prove to me that me downloading a game i wouldnt buy outright, on private bandwidth. Then installing that game. Then playing that game, seeing that i dont like the game. Uninstalling the game and not wasting my money on it. This does not prevent that company from making money since i wouldnt have bought the game in the first place without seeing if i like it. A Demo is rarely enough to convince me to buy.

 

Here's some very simple proof:

 

Without a pirated copy (seeing as a demo is insufficient to suit your tastes), you would have to spend money and _buy the game_ in order to form that same opinion. Sounds like a lost sale, doesn't it?

[Superfly0590]

Only a lost sale because you can't return the garbage puchases. If normal business practices were in use the merchandise would be returned and there would still be *no sale*.

 

It's a no-lose situation for the game publishers. I will not stand for that model.

[waxdart]

Originally posted by Superfly0590

Only a lost sale because you can't return the garbage puchases. If normal business practices were in use the merchandise would be returned and there would still be *no sale*.

 

It's a no-lose situation for the game publishers. I will not stand for that model.

 

If 'normal business practices' were in use, then there would be no sale, but there would also be *no crime*.

 

Out of curiosity, what retailers do you deal with? Non-software-specific vendors like Best Buy and Wal-Mart tend to be more strict in their policies, but I've returned _volumes_ of games to Electronics Boutique, no (or hardly any) questions asked.

 

I mean, caveat emptor, man. If you don't want to make garbage purchases, then you do some homework so that you can make educated purchasing decisions. There may be some unscrupulous gaming journalists, but the Internet is literally awash in 'amateur' opinionists who are all too willing to give it to you 'as it is'.

[madrebel]

Originally posted by waxdart

 

Here's some very simple proof:

 

Without a pirated copy (seeing as a demo is insufficient to suit your tastes), you would have to spend money and _buy the game_ in order to form that same opinion. Sounds like a lost sale, doesn't it?

You cannot prove to me that me downloading a game i wouldnt buy outright

learn to read. its rare that a game like jk2 comes along that i know i want before i buy it and have it installed. games that i dont know if i want...i evaluate and make my buying decision based on if i think the game is fun. these titles include but are not limited to.

 

aliens vs predator 2

NOLF

MOHAA

RTCW

 

all of which i downloaded first and then bought.

[Grinch2020]

Superfly, ALL of my software is legit. I have payed for every game that I have ever bought or it came packaged with something else. The ONLY downloading of games I have ever done were demos from sites such as fileplanet, or if it was a pay to download site from the company(ex. Steel Beasts). Whether this is true for the majority I cannot tell you but stereotyping everyone in this catagory is completely wrong. I haven not seen an example yet that would justify the use of warez. I am NOT one, however that would say that there is no way that you could ever convince me like I have seen previously in this thread. Saying that there is no way to convince a person is just another example of ignorance and close-mindedness.

As it stands now, however, I see no reason for the justification of warez and their like.

[waxdart]

Originally posted by madrebel

learn to read. its rare that a game like jk2 comes along that i know i want before i buy it and have it installed. games that i dont know if i want...i evaluate and make my buying decision based on if i think the game is fun. these titles include but are not limited to.

 

Madrebel, the attitude is unnecessary. We're trying to have a conversation.

 

My comment stands. If it were a game that you wouldn't buy outright, then there's no point to trying it in any format -- demo or pirated copy . You're not going to buy it, period, it's a waste of your time.

 

But, if you feel you might buy it, and you want to form an opinion, and you personally need to have the entire game to form that opinion, then *barring warez* you have to buy a copy. Or you borrow it from a friend.

[Superfly0590]

Out of curiosity, what retailers do you deal with? Non-software-specific vendors like Best Buy and Wal-Mart tend to be more strict in their policies, but I've returned _volumes_ of games to Electronics Boutique, no (or hardly any) questions asked.

 

I mean, caveat emptor, man. If you don't want to make garbage purchases, then you do some homework so that you can make educated purchasing decisions. There may be some unscrupulous gaming journalists, but the Internet is literally awash in 'amateur' opinionists who are all too willing to give it to you 'as it is'.

 

Grinch:

 

First of all I know of no retailers here that will take software back for a refund. Most places have big signs that say "WE DO NOT PROVED REFUNDS ON OPENED SOFTWARE!" If you want to trust someone elses gaming preferences and opinions on how you spend your money fine. I choose not to. I do my homework. Most games these aren't even worth the bandwidth to evaluate. There are the exceptions to this rule. Any game put out by Id, LucasArts, EA Sports are worth the money even if you have never read a review. No question there.

Superfly, ALL of my software is legit. I have payed for every game that I have ever bought or it came packaged with something else. The ONLY downloading of games I have ever done were demos from sites such as fileplanet, or if it was a pay to download site from the company(ex. Steel Beasts). Whether this is true for the majority I cannot tell you but stereotyping everyone in this catagory is completely wrong. I haven not seen an example yet that would justify the use of warez. I am NOT one, however that would say that there is no way that you could ever convince me like I have seen previously in this thread. Saying that there is no way to convince a person is just another example of ignorance and close-mindedness.

 

I will not question your software legitimacy. You very well could be an exception. But let me tell you, *you are the exception*! People pass software to friends and family all the time. Alot of people have no clue that it is even illegal. If you really pay for every game you think you would enjoy playing, relying only on demos and reviews, I pity you. I will not believe that you feel you got your money's worth out of *all* those purchases. Yet they keep your money. That's the part I cannot accept. If I buy a new stereo and I am not satisfied with the sound quality I will return it with NO QUESTIONS ASKED. The same does not hold true for a PC game. Again, let me re-iterate: I am not defending stealing software! I buy/register any program that is of use/enjoyment to me. Software development is a very time-consuming, stressful job. These guys deserve to see good sales for a good product.

[Superfly0590]

But, if you feel you might buy it, and you want to form an opinion, and you personally need to have the entire game to form that opinion, then *barring warez* you have to buy a copy. Or you borrow it from a friend.

 

I hate to tell you bro, but it's the same thing. Regardless of the means of transfer the end result is the same: You just installed an un-licensed, illegal copy of a saftware title!

 

You just joined the other team with that post. Welcome to the "Try before you buy" side!

[StormHammer]

As this thread has become more of a general discussion of warez, I'm moving it to the Swamp.

[Tasuki]

I;d much rather beaet on counter strike cheaters. I hate all of them.

[waxdart]

Originally posted by Superfly0590

First of all I know of no retailers here that will take software back for a refund. Most places have big signs that say "WE DO NOT PROVED REFUNDS ON OPENED SOFTWARE!" If you want to trust someone elses gaming preferences and opinions on how you spend your money fine. I choose not to. I do my homework.

 

I'll say again, I've returned _volumes_ of software to Electronics Boutique. Typically for a store credit, but on many occasions for a full refund.

 

If I'm not sure I'm going to enjoy my purchase, I don't buy it from a vendor without an acceptable return policy. Condolences if you live in an area where those sorts of stores are the only option.

[waxdart]

Originally posted by Superfly0590

 

I hate to tell you bro, but it's the same thing. Regardless of the means of transfer the end result is the same: You just installed an un-licensed, illegal copy of a saftware title!

 

...didn't say anything about duping a friend's copy, I said 'borrow'. In a preponderance of cases, that means you have the CD, and are therefore the only person able to use that program at that time, in keeping with the typical 'single-use' license scheme.

 

If you'd like to take this into the realm of legal semantics, we should poll one of the Raven developers here and see if they feel that that's the same thing. In fact, if there's one around, I'd love to hear an outside opinion...

[Superfly0590]

http://www.neuro.wustl.edu/computing/piracy.html

 

"Some software publishers include in their EULAs a provision allowing software to be installed on a second computer or laptop, as long as the owner of the software is the primary user of the second machine. The software must not be loaded into memory (that is, in use) on more than one machine at a time. Most EULAs

only allow a single installation per computer.

 

Business users often assume that as long as a copy of the software on a file server is only in use by one workstation at a time, this use is legitimate. Not true. The general rule is: one licensed copy for each computer the software is to be run on."

 

Did you guys dream up this "as long as it's only running on one PC it's not piracy" idea to make you feel ok about it? You're evaluating it the same as I am! Except by your standards I'm only allowed to evaluate it if I know someone personally who already bought it. Your practice contradicts the ideals you tout...

[waxdart]

Originally posted by Superfly0590

Did you guys dream up this "as long as it's only running on one PC it's not piracy" idea to make you feel ok about it? You're evaluating it the same as I am! Except by your standards I'm only allowed to evaluate it if I know someone personally who already bought it. Your practice contradicts the ideals you tout...

 

Be kind enough to keep it focused. I'm personally the one who mentioned the 'borrowing'/single-use idea. Having read the information on that page, it can be eliminated from the list.

 

Also, make sure to keep separate the hypothetical from the actual -- this does not represent my practices, simply a proposition.

 

Going back to the original argument, then: without pirated software to assist your final decision, you would be forced to purchase the program to reach your opinion. In his scenario, piracy then equals a lost sale.

[enderWiggin6]

you see, thats the point...this person feels (and i tend to agree with them) that it doesn't matter if its a lost sale. people should not be forced to pay in full for a game/software they don't really enjoy or want. if i purchase a game, and it's horrible, you can be quite assured i wouldn't keep it. i'd fight like to hell to get a refund. if its a lost sale, then its the developers' fault for making a crappy game. i mean, obviously in some cases, ie jk2, we all know the game is gonna be sweet, so it doesn't matter. however in most cases, when i see screenshots or read a preview of a game, and it somewhat interests me, i'm certainly going to want to try it before putting down $50 on it on a whim. i really don't think there's anything wrong with that.

 

just my opinion.

[Superfly0590]

Not attacking you personally.

 

Back to the original argument. Yes, under the return policies enforced by 90% of retailers it would equal a lost sale. My argument is, though that this system is not fair to the consumer. Why should I be left holding the bag on a product I am not satisfied with? This is not acceptable to me. I can go buy a coffee cup for $2.99 and return it the next day if I decide my coffee get cold too fast in it. Why should I not be given that option on a $40+ software title? I want an answer here...

[Superfly0590]

In response to an earlier post:

 

Patience is a virtue and stealing is a crime. Anyone who has a problem with both is a problem with society. I'm not a big fanatic as a rule, but people who do that kind of thing TICK ME OFF!!!! Software theft is a big thing. I admit that I will probably copy the game so that my roommates and I will be able to play MP if the cd is required. BUT I give you my solom oath, as an eagle scout and as a human being THAT I WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE THE USE OF THEM OUTSIDE A MP GAME WITH ME. If anyone has a problem with this I will not even copy them. Please let me know if you see it as un eithical. If so, my game will never touch a cd burner. Thanks for the chance to get that out. Please let me know your opinion

 

 

Lnt. Kechtt: So how does this work? I do not have to pay for the game if I only want to play multi-player with my friends? Please explain to me how this is justifiable?

 

Your scenario is a crime. MP or not, copies can only *legally* be made for archival purposes. Only to be used in the event your original is destroyed. Please do not act like a hard-nose do-gooder and then contradict yourself in the same sentance.

 

This goes back to an earlier post of mine on the matter about how people get up-in-arms about one aspect of piracy and seem to forget that they are guilty as well.

[waxdart]

Originally posted by Superfly0590

Back to the original argument. Yes, under the return policies enforced by 90% of retailers it would equal a lost sale. My argument is, though that this system is not fair to the consumer. Why should I be left holding the bag on a product I am not satisfied with? This is not acceptable to me. I can go buy a coffee cup for $2.99 and return it the next day if I decide my coffee get cold too fast in it. Why should I not be given that option on a $40+ software title?

 

I have to reiterate: a number of big-name game software dealers do have return policies. EB is an example. If anyone is unsure of the potential investment, then be certain to understand how your retailer of choice operates.

 

I really don't care for vendors who won't take a title back for at least store credit, and tend not to give them my business. Mostly, those are the businesses that sell game software in addition to other things (again, like Best Buy, Wal-Mart, etc.)

 

In that scenario, I agree with you: it's potentially unfair to the consumer. Games (PC, console et al.) are overpriced, but unfortunately they can command a premium because the market will bear it.

 

Which brings me to a point I made a while back: the industry is, in small ways, beginning to adjust. It's not uncommon now to see 'unsuccessful' titles (in addition to quality, but older) titles re-priced to far more reasonable levels. As an example, I personally enjoyed 'Alice' a great deal. It's now available for $20 at lots of leading retailers, and it isn't really _that_ old. In addition, some companies are beginning to deal in used games (console stuff especially, PC titles in more limited quantities). But these are businesses, and we have to expect them to behave as such: they're slow to adapt, and move in the direction of very quantifiable numbers. That is, if enough people statistically stopped paying the premiums that new games command, the industry would react accordingly.

[Superfly0590]

Maybe we are reaching some common ground!

 

I can only speak from my experience with software. In my case I do not have a local retailer who provides refunds. This is not an option for me, and unless I am pre-ordering a game as in the case of JK: Outcast, I stay away from mail-order for the most part.

 

I do not mind the price of PC games. Alot of work goes into them people deserve to make a good living from it. It would not change my position on the issue if the price were $5 or $500. The fact that the consumer has little or no options with a title they are dis-satisfied with is what bothers me. This may not be the case *everywhere* but it is here. Many small towns to not have the privelege of a big name software retailer and are forced to deal with Wal-Mart, BestBuy, OfficeDepot and the like. Places like this will not even give you an in-store credit (which is also un-acceptable as the only option).

[Grinch2020]

Sorry I should have posted this in the Swamp to begin with. That's what I get for not thinking. Another stupid thing on my part was to think that a post with the word "warez" in it would not start a flame war no matter what the content might be. Hehe, I think I should have left the whole thing out and just inserted the last paragraph... Hi my name is Grinch202 and Im new here! Only one more day for me, lets get ready to have some fun.