Loading quicksave = LAG (mentioned in "Performance" thread)

[azy]

As mentioned in the Performance thread, when loading a quicksave there is major lag - I just wanted to start a new thread for this specific problem.

 

I run the game at 1024x768x32 with max settings without anisotropic filtering & Anti Aliasing, but when I load a quicksave:

 

***** the framerate = half of normal rate *****

 

That is a defintite fact, how do I know?????? ok i'll explain.

 

When I set refresh rate at 100 Hz the quicksave framerate is 50hz

When I set refresh rate at 85 Hz the quicksave framerate is 42hz

When I set refresh rate at 75 Hz the quicksave framerate is 37hz

 

I checked the framerate using cg_drawfps 1 in console and when I change the refresh rate I change in autoexec.cfg also.

 

So is this a bug, or something to do with my system (listed in sig) ??

 

So far I figured out a temporary but long winded solution which works for me (no drop in frames) :

 

1) Start a fresh new game

2) Load quicksave (F9)

 

but you have wait for the intro sequence and loading times each time u wanna load quicksave which kinda sucks. Any other tips/solutions?

 

where the hell's my sig?

sigh.....If my sig isnt here, here's my specs:

 

Operating System: Windows 98 2nd Edition

Processor: AMD Athlon XP 1800+

Memory: 512 MB (PC 2100) DDR RAM

Motherboard: Soltek SL-75DRV2 (KT266A Chipset) Bios version K3.5

Graphics: Inno 3d Tornado Geforce 3 Ti 500 (23.11 drivers)

Sound: Soundblaster Live (Latest drivers)

DVD ROM Drive: HITACHI DVD-ROM GD-7500

Hard Drive: IBM 60GXP 60 Gigs

PSU: Enermax 350W

Heatsink/fan: Globalwin Cak38

CD-RW: Teac CD -W45E

Via 4in1 4.37

[DeM@rco]

Hi azy,

I just posted in the "performance" thread, then I saw Your thread and noticed, that You have exactly the same issues like many others with GeForce 3 cards and (maybe) a SB Live.

 

I posted a little weird workaround there, that maybe only works for me.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=426186#post426186

 

I will try Your solution now, too. Maybe it will be more reliable than mine

 

Bye,

Marco

[Hurin]

Hi there, welcome to our little corner of FPS hell. I too have been writing in the Performance thread. Our problems appear to be identical.

 

We should make *sure* that Raven or LucasArts is aware of this. Do we know for sure that they browse these boards? If not, what is a good email address or (other) forum to post to?

 

Thanks!

 

Hurin

[The_BZA]

i read the whole performance thread and i am here to tell ya, i am seeing the same effects with my GeForce 4 Ti. in my case it is being manifested as a flicker or a flash on fast latteral movements. i think this is cause my GF4 has all the horsepower it needs to pump out frame rates, its just seeing the lag in the vsynch catagory.

 

now then, vsynch. turning it off improves FPS right? and turning it on can affect the side-to-side choppyness of it? somebody explain vsynch as it relates to video quality. thanks:ewok:

[Hurin]

The_BZA,

 

I'm not saying you can't join our little gang of depressed quick-loaders. . . but your problem sounds quite different than what we are experiencing.

 

Slow/choppy/non-fluid performance sounds different than what you are describing (flashing?). So, I'm not sure if you're going to find much help in this thread.

 

That being said, however, when Vsynch is enabled, the computer will not send more screen updates to the video card/monitor than it can handle. When Vsynch is turned off, the computer sends as much as it can possibly produce, and the video card/monitor's attempts at catching up can result in "tearing". Ie, the upper-half of the screen is drawn, but not the lower half within a fraction of a second. When this persists, you get a *slightly* less fluid look. . . but nothing as drastic as what you describe.

 

I never use Vsynch. . . the impact is minimal.

 

I hope that helps.

 

Hurin

[The_BZA]

Thats the effect im seeing, tearing...how can i fix it. it looks like flashing but its tearing. what you described about the upper and lower parts of the screen not matching exactly for a half a second, thats EXACTLY what i meant....i really described it terribly. any thoughts???

 

thanks a lot for the techno-explanation. :D :D :D

[azy]

Dem@rco - thx for tip it worked a few times, then it didnt like you described.

 

BZA - I always have Vsync ON so it stays at a constant refresh rate & I have a ps2 mouse which has the same refresh rate as the monitor so mouse movement is smooth i.e both refresh rate and mouse rate is 80 Hz.

Monitor refresh rate adjustment - I use HzTool

Mouse refresh rate adjustment - I use PS2Rate

If you put the name of the programs in Google (or other search engine) you can download them. Also other games will be smooth aswell since your mouse will always be smooth. Try it with different refresh rates I bet it will solve the tearing

(you can test it with a new start of JK2 since quickload will have tearing regardless)

 

Quickload issue - somewhere in this forum I read about using the zoom in scope of a weapon also helps frames (I tried it & it worked a few times then it didnt)

 

Hurin - I'll ring customer support tomorrow and see what they say about it

[DeM@rco]

Hey guys,

 

Hi, The_BZA

I was just about to give You a Techno-explanation, too...but Hurin was faster than me. And I could not explain it to You better, I think...

 

I don´t know, if You have a tweak utility installed (If not, then I recommend Rivatuner), then You can change V-sync options there. Otherwise You go to to properties and then to advanced display settings of Your GeForce 4 Ti. There You have the OpenGL settings and the Option "Vertical Sync" You simply put that to "On by default" That must do the trick (in most cases).

 

@azy

Your trick seems to work well for me, too. And when I skip the intro, then it´s not taking so long, but still long enough to go to the fridge or to the toilet...or maybe both

 

I also use Hztool and PS2 Rate Plus and of course Rivatuner to push my good ole´GeForce 3 Ti to the limit ,-) I have my V-sync always off, but I can only notice very few tearing effects.

 

I´ve just tried the trick with the scopes, but it is only working one time for me so far.

But all I can say is, keep them little tricks coming guys

 

Bye

Marco

[Inglo]

Your framerates being half of your refresh rate is just an element of vysnc in openGL games. If you can't maintain at or above you displays screen refresh then you the frame buffer has to wait an extra cycle to stay synchronized. So if your screen Hz is 100 and you aren't maintaining that 100 in fps it gets dropped to 50, if you can't maintain 50 it gets dropped to 33.

[azy]

Inglo I think I understand what u said but what I'm saying is that although it may be an element of openGL, it should not happen after a quicksave is loaded because if it was working perfectly while playing originally : why must there be half the frames after it is quickloaded?

 

This must be some sort of bug in the game or as Dem@rco mentioned something to do with geforce 3 and/or sblive.

 

BTW which detonators are you guys using? Does the same thing happen with 28.32 (i'm using 23.11) ? Also is anyone using Via 4in1 4.38 (4.37 here) ?

[Hurin]

I think Marco posted in the "Performance" thread that he's tried lots of different detonator drivers. No change.

 

I don't think it's the 4-in-1 drivers either since many of us (me included) are using Intel-based motherboards.

 

Good ideas though. . . I just think they've already been covered. At this point, I think it's just time to wait for Raven or LucasArts to notice us. . . and have some pity.

 

I mean, there really is nothing abnormal about my system. . . and it's as crisp-and-clean an install as you could ever hope to have. I formatted the drive and installed everything from scratch (as I tend to do every few months anyways). At this point, I think it's clear that there's definitely a bug. . . and a pretty severe one at that. I wonder how many people, however, are playing it and not even realizing that things should be better than they are.

 

I mean, the fact that it does run great. . . and then falls over and dies as soon as you load a quicksave. . . it just shows what *is* possible. . . were it not for the bug.

 

Hello? Is there anybody out there? Raven? LucasArts?

 

Hurin

[DeM@rco]

Hey guys,

 

Hurin, You don´t know how right You are, with what You´re assuming. I´ve just looked into the forums of my fav german newspage and guess what I´ve found? Lots of people who have the same issues that we have and they are not aware of the fact, that it´s some sort of a bug. They think their PC´s are too slow or they blame Windows. Some even think the engine is too sophisticated for their high end systems. I´ve just posted there and advised them to take a look into our threads...

 

If someone is interested in improving his German, here You can read the full thread in all its glory:

http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15473

 

Now I gotta put my butt to sleep, it´s almost morning here and I´ve got to get up again in 4 hours

 

Good night,

Marco

[Camerhil]

Hi, I'm just writing to say that I have exactly the same problem on my NForce board, so it's definitely not a Mobo issue. Also I'm using the onboard sound, so I don't think SB live is the problem either. Like you say, I think it's a coding bug. But it seems a bit weird that some people aren't getting the problem at all...

 

---------------------------

Athlon 1800+

Msi K7N420 Pro

Creative Geforce3 Ti500

WinXP

[Hurin]

I just got off my lazy a$$ and sent this to LucasArts via the Yoda Helpdesk (sorry for the cross-post to the "performance" thread, but I consider these threads related):

 

------------

 

Hi there,

 

There seems to be a widespread problem with the performance of Jedi Outcast that cannot be simply attributed to users setting the video/performance options too high.

 

I'm going to use the term "we" below because quite a few of us on the lucasforums.com site have noticed this odd behavior.

 

I hate to jump to conclusions, but it's apparently a bug in the game because, for a while, everything runs *great*. . . we're getting 70-90 frames-per-second (fps). . . but as soon as we load a quicksave, the performance drops to 40-50fps (and as low as 20fps in outdoor areas).

 

Now, if the game were always slow, I'd assume that it was something wrong with my computer. But because a somewhat routine and normally trouble-free action causes the performance hit, it would seem to be a problem with the software itself.

 

I noticed this most prominently on the level where I am fighting AT-STs while trying to destroy the ion cannons (while the prisoners wait for pickup).

 

Some say that using the light-amplification goggles often brings frame rates back up (two or three times, then this fix stops functioning until the game is fully exited and restarting). Others use the scope in a similar fashion. Again, not to be pushy, but does this odd behavior not point to a pretty severe performance-sapping bug? I mean, why would loading a saved game cause this behavior. . . and perhaps more importantly, why would momentarily looking through a weapon's scope fix it?

 

Anyways, there are at least three posts on the lucasforums about this issue with multiple people reporting it. And, unfortunately, there are probably a lot more people who don't realize the *source* of the slow-down, and just assume that the game is more technically demanding than it actually is. (not that the game isn't beautiful and incredibly good! It is! But we want to experience it in all the glory that our hardware is apparently able to provide. . . were it not for this bug).

 

Here are two threads on the lucasarts forums, please take a look!

 

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35985

 

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37684

 

There are a *lot* of posts there from various users with all sorts of different graphics cards (though I think all those reporting this problem have the titanium version of the GeForce 3 & 4). I'm sure you guys could get a lot more info form those threads directly than I am able to provide here. It would be great if you could browse on over there.

 

Might this problem also have something to do with the reports of there being little-to-no difference in FPS for those with powerful systems who try everything between 640x480 to 1600x1200. . . and the framerates don't change by more than 5-10fps? Just hoping. . . cuz that has been somewhat frustrating as well.

 

My System Configuration:

 

(All drivers were downloaded today prior to machine wipe. . . so all should be newest except the NVidia ones which I purposefully left at v23.11)

 

P4 2Ghz (Northwood)

Asus P4B266-C Motherboard (newest Intel Chipset Drivers)

512 MB DDR RAM (Corsair 2400)

GF3 ti500 (Detonator Driver v23.11. Hercules Brand.)

SB Live X-Gamer (non-5.1) (Driver v3509.2.0.0 --Newest--)

Adaptec 29160N SCSI Controller

Quantum Atlas 10K III 18GB

Plextor UltraPlex 40

Yamaha 4x2x16x CDRW

3Com 3C905C-TX Network Card

DirectX 8.1 freshly downloaded from WindowsUpdate.

 

I hope you will pass this email on to those who can fully investigate it. Personally, I've given up on the game and am really anxious to have a fix so that I can play it (with optimal performance). This really is an incredible game!

 

Please let me know if you are aware of this issue, and if so, is there any fix in sight?

 

Thanks!

 

Brian

[The_BZA]

i use coolbits to overclocl my card and have tried the reccomended 23.11 drivers (even thought they do nothing to recognize the GeForce 4 Ti hardware updates and advances and i cant understand why lucas would reccomend that we use older than available drivers for bleeding edge cards) and i have also used the 28.42 (or whatever is official on nvidia's site) and i still get tearing issues. the topish and bottomish portions of my screen seem to be drawn out of synch with eachother and i have tried every option relating to vsynch in every tweaking program available. i tried messing with the number of pre-rendered frames, taking it from 1 to 100 and nothing fixes it, i changed my mouse from USB to PS2 and played with those refresh rates...nothing...

 

its a damn GeForce 4 Ti 4400 for God's sake, why cant it seem to "handle" this game? i have a friend who uses a GeForce 3 Ti 500 and his is fine...i really think its my hardware...whats going on? helP!

 

 

^*BumP*^

[azy]

Nice one Hurin, that ought to get their attention.

 

I just got back from work and rang Activision/Lucasarts technical support (listed in the manual) and they said they'd get back to me after I gave my name and number.

 

I also mentioned that there are several others experiencing it but they said they haven't come accross the problem before.

 

I'll give them this web page address when they ring (if they do, if not I'll get back on their case) - hopefully someone will be able to solve it.

[azy]

I received this e-mail, I haven't got time to do all these so please give these a shot :

 

Date 2 April 2002

 

Further to your correspondence of 2 April 2002

 

Thank you for contacting us about the saved game problem. I will check the

bulletin boards and see if we can piece together a solution and have this

appended on our site as soon as possible.

 

I would suggest to you that if you could try the following and let us know how

you get on, it would help us to help all our valued customers with this problem.

 

First off, try your graphics hardware acceleration (control panel, System,

Performance and Graphics button... check first of all that the acceleration is

set to full and if so, please reduce it by one notch to Most... then okay and

quit to desktop and let the PC start again, then try Jedi Outcast again).

Secondly you may wish to try your AGP Aperture in the system BIOS to 64MB. I

understand that 128 and 256 were of no use.

Thirdly you may need to try running both the desktop and game at 16 bit high

colour and 800x600 resolution. From here, if this helps you, you may wish to

try higher resolutions and 16 bit and then lower resolutions at 32 bit until the

problem reappears. It may be a problem which a future release of drivers from

nVidia will help. Sometimes a new game will have teething problems with even

the latest drivers and the next release may well solve the problem.

 

Believe it or not we have in the past suggested older drivers for your graphics

card and this has worked.

 

Do please let us know how you get on.

 

 

 

.

 

Your customer number is 300134720

 

If you need further assistance in Europe, please call our technical support

staff at

0990 143 525 . Also be sure to include all previous replies when/if responding

to this message.

 

Best Regards,

Stephen atLucas Arts Technical Support

 

-----------------------

More info for us. Lots of people on this website are having this problem:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37684

 

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37684

 

Has tried AGP aperture at 256MB instead of 128 which made no difference... also

tried

[Traidur]

Hello fellow frustrated Jedi Knighters. I sent a letter to the yoda help desk as well and am eagerly waiting a repsonse. I glanced over the response from lucasarts and it looks like they still think it's hardware related. Also, Hurin said in his letter that it happens on GeForce 3 and 4 titanium cards: my card is a regular GeForce 3.

[Traidur]

Oh and I thought I would throw this into this thread as well, I've mentioned it on others. It doesn't just happen on quicksaves, it happens with most player made saves.

[Hurin]

I wonder if this has anything to do with the lack of response here on the forums:

 

http://www.webdog.org/plans/173/

 

According to his plan file, the project leader, Kenn Hoekstra, is on vacation until April 15th. He mentions that he browses "the forums" quite a bit. I don't want to begrudge anyone some well-earned vacation time. I guess, if it is the case that he would normally be the one to respond here, we'll have to wait. I mean, he's only human. Give the guy some quality vacation time! I'll just play Civ3 in the meantime.

 

There are some tweaking tips in his .plan file too, but they are apparently just cut and pasted from the troubleshooting documents included with the game.

 

Well, it may be a long wait. . . but this game is worth it.

 

Best Regards,

 

Hurin

[Eyemaster]

The_BZA:

 

With Q3 engine games not only do you have to enable Vsync for your video card (via Riva Tuner or whatever), you also need to issue this console command within the game:

 

r_swapinterval 1

 

Jedi Knight II should set this command for you when you select the option Video Sync: On under Setup, More Video.

 

BTW: I am getting the same slowdowns after loading save games. It is definately a game bug. I have a GF 3, PIII-933, 512MB ram, and a Philips Acoustic Edge sound card.

[Traidur]

I've figured out a way to workaround this problem until a patch comes out. When you get slowdown form a quicksave, just reload the autosave from that level, then reload your quicksave. It's worked everytime for me. By the time a patch comes out I'll already have beaten the game so whats the point?

[Hurin]

I think I have a solution/cause!!!

 

Could you guys please test this?

 

It occured to me. . . when do you normally load a quicksave?. . . after you die, right?

 

And, what often happens when you die? The game enters "slow-motion" mode to show Kyle getting his ass kicked Matrix-style.

 

So. . . it occured to me. . . the game is artificially slowing itself down. . . what if it is forgetting to throw the switch and speed itself back up once you load the quicksave? Or, perhaps we're jumping the gun and loading the quicksave before the game would normally throw the switch (at the end of the slomo death scene).

 

Anyways. . . to test it, I turned off slow-motion deaths in the options menu. I was then able to load quicksaves on the AT-ST/Ion cannon levels without any slow-down at all. I was running between 60-90fps the entire time.

 

This would also explain why some people have said that they don't suffer the problem when they load checkpoints. . . and why we don't normally see the problem when we restart the game. You have to have *died* (and perhaps gone to load a game before the slo-mo death animation finishes) to see the problem. Of course, this is a theory, but my testing seems to help my case.

 

Why don't you guys give it a try and let me know if it removes the quicksave performance problem as well.

 

Thanks!

 

Hurin

[Hurin]

Hmmm. . . well. . . it was a good try. After playing about an hour, the quickload FPS-hit struck again.

 

Oh well. . . back to the drawing board. . .

 

Hurin

[Hurin]

Just a couple of new notes:

 

1. The observations others have made are correct. The quickloading of an auto-save does not *always* cause the FPS take a nose-dive until the game is restarted. It seems to happen only 1/3 of the time. But, that 1/3 sucks because then you have to restart JKII altogether (if the goggle or scope trick doesn't work).

 

2. I confirmed that using the scope or the low-light goggles *does* bring the FPS back to normal. . . once or twice. But after one or two times, it stops fixing it, and you must quit and restart JKII.

 

3. Just a quick observation. It seems to be normal for the FPS to be low for a few seconds right after a save is loaded. Then, after about 3-5 seconds, they jump up to normal/fast speed. I used to think this was the textures loading into the video card's RAM, so I would spin around during the laggy time to get them all loaded. I have since noted that the normal short period of lag lasts the same amount of time whether I spin or not. Anyways, my point is that it seems like a "switch" of some kind is thrown 3-5 seconds after a saved game is loaded. Optimally, when that switch is thrown, performance increases to normal/fast levels. But, perhaps, what we are noticing after the quicksave is quickloaded is that this switch is not being thrown properly. . . because the performance never increases to normal/fast levels. Make sense?

 

4. Finally, I think maybe doing a vid_restart from the console may bring things back to normal performance after the quickload bug strikes. But I haven't had a chance to test this.

 

That's all. . . Best of luck figuring this out. Personally, I now consider the game unplayable. I'm on Nar Shaada right now and I die so often. . . and then load a game only to have my system's performance stink. . . and then it's two-three minutes of quitting and restarting JKII altogether. Bleh. . . it ruins the game.

 

Best Regards,

 

Hurin