New Player and whiner rant

[thrEEpaGe]

Before this game came out, I basically knew the true fans and hardcore peeps of the Jedi Knight series, and while not everyone on the forum was one, we were all pretty interested in gameplay and how the game was going to play out. After the game came out, however, I have noticed an exponential growth in not only the people coming to the forum (I can expect this, of course), but also in the number of people whining about how certain force powers are cheap and my all time favorite, "dishonorable."

 

These arguments are absolutely ludicrous! While I am not going to comment on the fact that a majority of these whiners, or as I will be correctly referring to them from now on, newbies, have only a few posts, relative newcomers to the forums. What I am going to comment on is the illegitimacy of their arguments.

 

First of all, on the subject of cheap force powers, the imbalance of the light and dark side. I would like to state right now that I do think that the light and dark sides are imbalanced. However, unlike the majority of you, I do not see this as a huge problem or detriment to the game. I find it to be wonderful! One of the huge 'problems' with the imbalance is people whining about force grip and drain. On drain, what is the problem here? If you do not like someone using drain on you, you have many options. First, you can easily just use drain on them! Their own force power will be drained, and even if they drain your power as well, the playing field is even! You are free to engage in a limited mana battle. If you are truly the better player, you will be able to kill them. They don't win if they can't battle you properly. Another way to battle this is absorb. While this doesnt necessarily last very long, it still counters it, and while they are wasting their mana on drain and still hopefully relying on you simply sitting there and complaining on the cheapness of drain, you are free to attack! With both strategies, you are on an even playing field, and your skill will determine the winner.

 

Now, to grip we go. Obviously, grip is a very good power, but it has drawbacks. First, the person is probably going to be in a relatively remote area of the map where there is not a lot of fire (for instance in a place where gun fights or intense saber battles are taking place). This means that they will not be getting many kills if you simply stay with the crowd. Since it is harder to use grip when you are being attacked, they will try not to use grip when they could easily be potentially attacked. Also, obviously just try to stay away from chasms and cliffs and the likes. It will help you out if they don't have anywhere to throw you. Another method is using drain outside the grip radius and coming at him with all the force and fury you have. It is quite simple to defeat someone using grip. Another method for you light side rebels out there (pun intended) is to use absorb. It will give you that extra boost to kick their arse.

 

Now, for a general overview of the whiners. Please, for the love of all logic and reason, don't whine when someone uses the same trick over and over on you and kills you 20 | -5. Just because you are losing and the person is using push or grip or drain or whatever does not mean that they are jerks or "dishonorable." It means that you got your arse kicked and you need to retrain and/or find a new strategy. Deal with the losses people. By not being an "honorable" loser, you show to me and all of the other hardcore people out there how much of a newbie you really are. You can take steps to step out of your state of unconsciousness (I really cannot spell today). By simply acting like a human being and trying to improve yourself and watching others who are owning you, you will be respected a lot more by the people who good than if you whine about them hacking or being cheap.

 

Thank you all, you have been a good audience. Good night! heh

 

=)

 

Those are my 2 Argentinian cents (heh now THAT is worth a lot)

[Pedro The Hutt]

Well to add some comments and personal views on this, I do agree for a bit about the whiners, since it's pretty much clear that there is a counteraction for anything that can happen in the game. Ofcourse it's up to you to find those counteractions and do something about that cheesy player.

 

And well about the dishonorable player thing, the only type of dishonorable player I know is the type that doesn't give his opponent a fair chance to defend himself. (like shooting a few rockets/a few hundred repeater rounds in his back, or not even giving the time to stand up again after losing a saber lock or being pushed off their feet.) But then again that might be me, to me it doesn't matter to me much if I win or lose a fight, I just want to know that I fought it fair and that I either won or lost thanks to my own skill. And ofcourse that I gave my opponent a chance to put up a good defence.

That argument about counteracting grip and drain was good BTW.

 

Anywho this was just my view on this matter.

 

 

Edit: oh and one more thing, why is the word "newbie" the latest new insult, a newbie is someone who is new in whatever he does or has just joined , from what I heard at least. But in the way everyone is using it these days it seems like it's a way to insult someone of who you think that he is unskilled at something or whines about not being able to perform well. What's up with this? Newbie used to be a fairly innocent word. ^.^

[Asheen-Shugar]

Darth Vader: There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. Luke, you do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.

 

Luke Skywalker: I'll never join you!

 

Darth Vader: If you only knew the *power* of the dark side. Obi-wan never told you what happened to your father.

 

Luke Skywalker: He told me enough! He told me *you* killed him.

 

Darth Vader: No. *I* am your father.

[enderWiggin6]

i'm all for the force powers...with one condition: that there is a valid counter-attack to them. the only thing i've seen which is flat out lame, is people using force drain, then immediatly gripping you. there is nothing you can do about this. you have to simply **** there while they choke you, or throw you off a ledge. i don't want to hear "just don't get hit by the drain" because its not possible. i'd bet that i could successfully do this to you 9/10 times, even if you knew thats what i was doing ahead of time. i personally think drain should simply be slowed down, that is drain force at a reduced rate...as it stands right now, an opponent can remove your entire force bar in about 1 second. now i'm sorry, maybe its just personal preference, but i find that overpowered. especially in 1v1 duels, where your pansy opponent runs backwards and drains you, then lightnings you over and over. i mean, honestly, how fun is that? oh, thats right...its not fun at all.

 

ender.

[Forhekset]

Originally posted by Pedro The Hutt

or not even giving the time to stand up again after losing a saber lock or being pushed off their feet.)

 

What, we're supposed to let people stand up after they lose a sabre lock now? Gimme a damn break. The first thing I do after winning a sabre lock is rush to get the kill before they CAN stand up. I mean what's the point of winning the sabre lock if you don't use it to your advantage? This whole honor/dishonor thing is a steaming pile of crap.

[Pedro The Hutt]

wow wow, calm down, as I said that's my own view of things, it's not because I let you stand up again that you have to let me stand up again, if you want to kill me while I try to get my butt of the floor go ahead. But I just mean that personally I want to give my opponent a fair chance of winning as well. If I play without any mercy surely the game would be less fun for my enemies ^.^ (altough I have fought against a completely merciless opponent on several occasions back in the original JK days, must say it was quite a challange to beat him lol ^_^" not surprisingly the victory usually went to him.. altough sometimes I had that pleasure of winning, so hey, we both have our fun, and that's the point about gaming ne? Having a lot of ton. )

[enderWiggin6]

hell yeah, i agree...i use force push all the time, in the HOPES of knocking them down. that's what its there for. the entire point of winning the saber lock is that you get a free shot. i mean, its pretty stupid to not take advantage of an obvious opportunity.

 

ender.

[schmucky]

well u guys dont know me so i guess this is my inaugural first post, but i guess this seems like a good place to discuss this kind of stuff.

 

I never played the orgiinal Jedi Knight back when it was released , so i'm a newbie in the true sense of the word, but what amazes me is that already there are people that insult you for being a 'newbie'. For gods sake the game has only been our for a week or maybe more and already theres enough whinging to show me that perhaps members of the new JK2 community need to grow up.

 

However, this is luckily a small miniority, all i ever seem to see in the Australian servers is people praising how great the game is, which is something I dont see in any game.

 

Also I agree with the nerfing of force drain, but is it just me or does absorb not protect you from it ? I would assume that absorb would protect from all types of force including drain.

[Aim]

There is an honor thing. If you sabered a guy 136 times and you just laugh in his face saying you suck than you're a piece of @#$@#$$%$. But if you're willing to give the guy some hints and pointers...... BTW: repeaters sucks! ! ! ! ! go back to q3 or ut if you wanna use guns. GTFO of this game! ! ! ! ! This game is about sabers! ! ! not freaking rocket launchers! ! !! It takes lucas arts to inbalanced weapons and sabers! ! ! in the original jk sabers would rock ne weapons and now i see noobs blowing my ass off with rocket packs! ! ! ! !

[Veng]

hmmm so threepage because someone doesnt have 2000 posts there opinion is unvalid ?

I have low post counts in most forums im in but the simple reason is i post when i have a comment or opinion not not just to up my post count, and i find your unwillingness to help so called newbies and just slag them off to be rather pointless because at the end of the day the more people who like this game the better it will become and the longer the online life of this game will be.

 

I see some problems with the force power in this game because drain is so powerfull and what u will get in the end is everyone using drain/grip with the other powers in the game being made redundent is that what u would like?

i have seen alot of good ideas on this forum regarding how to tackle drain and in my oppinion this is what a forum is for,i have also read a reply by you somewhere on this forum telling people to stop whineing as nothing will change, you are wrong this game will change for the better as time goes on and patches are released it is inevitable.

 

At the end of the day a online game suvives because of the community that is built up around it (leagues ect)and this community will have so called "newbies" but remember we were all newbies once.

[Mafia_Jabba]

ok....using advantages that are put in the game to BE advantages is dishonorable.......hmmmmmmmm.............???

[TheDarkSide]

Okay.....I must have posted something along these lines in about 5 different forums now, but why why why are we using the word Newbie , Threepage, when you're talking about what you're describing?? A newbie is someone who is new to the game and usually doesn't have a clue what is going on, and can't kill anybody no matter how hard they try. What you are describing I think most people refer to as "whores" ala gripping whore, draining whore, etc etc. Someone who does the same thing over and over and over again. In my experience these are not NEWBIES...these have some extreme skill in what they are doing, and are leveraging an imbalance in the gameplay ad nauseaum. Maybe it's my own experience as a newbie to FPS's and games in general, but I don't associate easy kills with must be a n00b.

Now keep in mind with very few exceptions there are ways to get around being 'whored'...one exception is the spawn camper, but luckily Raven gave us a nice lengthy invulnerability bubble to counteract that...and every whore will meet its match.

 

TDS

[Creston]

One thing that never ceases to amaze me whenever a sequel to a game comes out is that the "crowd" that played the first game to death automatically considers themselves to be The Final Word on whatever is allowed or not allowed in the sequel, and to be the Final Arbiters on whether or not anyone is allowed to complain about something.

 

If The Crowd thinks Drain is too overpowered? Hell, it has to be patched. Everyone who uses Drain is a L@M3R!

If Every newbie thinks Drain is too overpowered? Shut up newbie, you have no right to talk! Everyone who uses Drain is a "vet"!

 

 

Threepage, EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, and as far as I know EVERYONE has the right to post those opinions on LucasArts' official forums. The reason I think most newcomers to the game (and excuse me for saying this, but you, like the rest of us, probably have not had the game for more than a week, so in that effect, you're as much a newbie as the rest of us) think Drain is overpowered is because

1) It works way too fast.

2) EVERYBODY and their dog uses it.

 

The fun part about a well balanced FFA is that many people will use many different strategies. If you come onto a server and see everybody draining everybody, and every other strategy fails, then you have a decent argument by saying that Drain is overpowered. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be used so heavily.

 

The "solution" you provide ; Use Drain yourself is no solution at all, merely a perpetuation of the problem.

 

No offense intended, but I played JK1 to death as well, and I also think that Drain is too powerful in comparison to a lot of other powers. Same goes for Heal, Lightning, and same goes for weapons (I think it's ridiculous that anyone with a blaster will kill me while I'm doing nothing but defending with saberdefense 3).

 

Let's try to let everybody have their say, alright? These ARE the official forums after all. Whines and rants are very often the only way for people to voice their complaints about a game, and the fact that they TAKE the time to post their complaints and rants and whines means that they like the game enough to do so.

 

Cheers

 

Creston

[Forhekset]

Originally posted by Pedro The Hutt

wow wow, calm down, as I said that's my own view of things, it's not because I let you stand up again that you have to let me stand up again, if you want to kill me while I try to get my butt of the floor go ahead. But I just mean that personally I want to give my opponent a fair chance of winning as well. If I play without any mercy surely the game would be less fun for my enemies ^.^ (altough I have fought against a completely merciless opponent on several occasions back in the original JK days, must say it was quite a challange to beat him lol ^_^" not surprisingly the victory usually went to him.. altough sometimes I had that pleasure of winning, so hey, we both have our fun, and that's the point about gaming ne? Having a lot of ton. )

 

Yeah I'm calm, but I suppose I come off as ranting when I post...anyway I agree, the point is to have fun, and that's all I do. I don't name call, or use what I consider "cheap" tactics, but if you lose a sabre lock and get knocked on your butt, or I Force Push you to the ground, that's just another way I have to get the upper hand on ya. I suppose I just can't comprehend this "Honor" thing that keeps going around here.

 

It's like, let's say I'm tossing some lightning your way...should I only use a LITTLE bit of lightning, just to soften you up, then finish you off with my sabre the "honorable" way? If you were severely low on health and I had a good idea of this, would you consider it "cheap" for me to Grip or Lightning that last little bit of life out of you? I don't think it's cheap, dirty, dishonorable, or otherwise. It's a strategy, it's built into the game (it's not exploiting some flaw), and it's there to be used.

[Essobie]

The "rock paper scissors" of JK2 balance works great in vanilla FFA or Dueling... but it completely breaks down in Saber/Force only scenarios because the only real counter for Drain is a gun (Drain removes everything you can do BUT shoot guns).

 

Certain maps (like duel_hanger) make draining your opponent to counter their drain impossible since there is a spot on the map that you can only get to with force jump.

 

If you'd like to argue otherwise, feel free.

 

And remember to NOT take into account that I have less than 30 posts to these forums. =P

[Forhekset]

Originally posted by schmucky

Also I agree with the nerfing of force drain, but is it just me or does absorb not protect you from it ? I would assume that absorb would protect from all types of force including drain.

 

Absorb protects from it, but you have to get it activated quick before they START draining you. I play LightSide quite often; Absorb is great against people who love to drain constantly. Fills up your mana pool so you can heal, wipes out theirs from trying to drain you over and over.

 

Aim: Why don't you play on sabre-only games then?

 

TheDarkSide: On this forum, anyone who gets beaten repeatedly by the same strategy and isn't quite smart enough to figure out how to counter it calls anyone using the aforementioned strategy a "whore".

[Pedro The Hutt]

Yeah I'm calm, but I suppose I come off as ranting when I post...anyway I agree, the point is to have fun, and that's all I do. I don't name call, or use what I consider "cheap" tactics, but if you lose a sabre lock and get knocked on your butt, or I Force Push you to the ground, that's just another way I have to get the upper hand on ya. I suppose I just can't comprehend this "Honor" thing that keeps going around here.

 

It's like, let's say I'm tossing some lightning your way...should I only use a LITTLE bit of lightning, just to soften you up, then finish you off with my sabre the "honorable" way? If you were severely low on health and I had a good idea of this, would you consider it "cheap" for me to Grip or Lightning that last little bit of life out of you? I don't think it's cheap, dirty, dishonorable, or otherwise. It's a strategy, it's built into the game (it's not exploiting some flaw), and it's there to be used.

 

 

 

 

Nah if you feel like shocking me to death go ahead, that's your strategy, up to me to choose a good way to keep myself from getting killed. (like say jump over you or something) So far that's alright with me, all I'm saying is, when an opponent is completely helpless, give him the chance to get his defences back up. (but hey, that's me, it doesn't feel right for me to kill someone who is completely defenceless, perhaps I'm just a pathetic wimp lol, who's to tell)

[Prox Kolari]

Drain-then-Grip is a hard-to-beat tactic, and it... is... cheap. If you use it once in a while, like every sixth or seventh kill, fine. But you run into guys whose entire repertoire is that. Stand near a pit, and Grip people as they run through. I don't want the solution to be "well, stay away from pits." You've been in arcades where that one guy challenges you with Wolverine and does the exact same 16-hit air combo over and over and over and over and beats you. Nobody likes him either.

 

It's not just for my Light-using ass' benefit, it's for theirs too. I think people would have more fun if they expanded their abilities -- yes, that includes whiners learning to counteract Drain/Grip. Absorb is great... I've run into players who use Grip on me while I'm Absorbing. It doesn't work. But they keep using it. Then they try Drain. Then Lightning. The last resort for them is the lightsaber!! There are those types in every game who panic when cheapness doesn't work.

[thrEEpaGe]

Note: I accidentally bumped the mouse when it was over 'Back,' so my post is significantly shorter than it would have been. =(

 

I believe that some of you were missing my point of this article. I was not picking on those or anyone who was not good at the game. What I was trying to do, however, was try to inform those of you who, instead of trying to beat the strategies, were simply whining about them.

 

When I use the word newbie, I virtually NEVER use it literally. The type of newbie that I am talking about is one who is not necessarily new to the game, but one who is not willing to admit that the other person is simply good, or that just because a strategy is good, it is unbeatable or cheap. That was the point that I was trying to convey. I tried to get people to realize that they have a chance, and to stop whining.

 

On Drain + Grip:

You again have several options! You can choose the easiest option, which is to use drain back on them and hack and slash away, or you can use absorb, or you can simply go out of grip's range! The person using strategies like the ones many call 'cheap' are more than likely banking on those strategies working to kill you easily. More than likely they aren't going to be expecting you to use drain or to even counter their attack. Then you can simply attack. Like almost every game, there are counters to everything. The balance is simply there for you to find.

 

It is not dishonorable to use your light saber when someone is on the ground! Come on people! It is a game, and push is in the game. So is grip, lightning, and every other force power that people use. They are not using hacks (at least from what you are complaining about) or using force in no force games; they are using force powers and trying to kill you! If you didn't want to be killed, go play single player Diablo or some other non fps game. Grow up and use strategy!

[ArtifeX]

You guys ever hear of absorb? just turn it on before you get in drain range. most darkies don't even know you have it turned on and try to drain you anyway, thereby regenerating the force power you used in turning it on in the first place. Get them involved in melee combat and turn it off so it doesn't sap your power--they won't even notice 90% of the time.

[thrEEpaGe]

exactly! there are tons of ways to work around not only drain, but grip as well! do not discount something as cheap simply because you have no idea of countering it...and ive reiterated many times over and over again, those using drain/grip etc are probably (sometimes they are good in other fields) relying heavily on their strategy in getting a quick kill, and if you go there being confident and not getting ready to squeal, they will be caught off of their guard and you will gain the upper hand....peope should just stop complaining of cheap strategies...if you dont liek using strategy or countering strategies, you are going to have a hard time functioning in other games and sometimes even in real life...deal with it people

 

oh, and by the way, i was not making fun of those newcomers to the forums....i WAS commenting on the 'coincidence' of those posting whinings about the game and increased user frequenting the forums...i dont mind new users; they are what make the forums successful...i just hate whiners...

[thrEEpaGe]

Originally posted by Pedro The Hutt

 

 

 

 

Nah if you feel like shocking me to death go ahead, that's your strategy, up to me to choose a good way to keep myself from getting killed. (like say jump over you or something) So far that's alright with me, all I'm saying is, when an opponent is completely helpless, give him the chance to get his defences back up. (but hey, that's me, it doesn't feel right for me to kill someone who is completely defenceless, perhaps I'm just a pathetic wimp lol, who's to tell)

 

 

heh, i don't mind you not killing people when they are down, and i am glad that you didn't tell other people that they should do the same. your post is great, and i am glad that you can have you opinion and keep others' in your mind...i do not feel this way, after years of conditioning on other multiplayer fps games...i give mercy in other ways during the game =)

[m.d.c skamonkey]

Oooooh, look at my number of posts, isn't it small!!!! Aren't i a loser, and most of all, aren't i a NOOOOOOOOOOB!!!!!! well, no

 

i've been following these forums for months, had the game on the day of purchase, and feel i'm a pretty good MP type guy. however, i'll never post to a forum unless there is a reason for me to - if i wanna comment on something new, or something someone's said, and if i havent got anything to add, i'm not gonna waste anyones time. but i have been FOLLOWING i.e. reading the forums for months.

 

n00bs: n00bs are bad. they are bad because they spoil the gaming experience, and make it harder for the rest of us to have fun. BUT they've gotta be tolerated - we're all n00bs to all games at some point.

 

whiners: i think to an extent whiners are a good thing - they stop people from getting kills where they don't deserve them, like in real cool dueling situations e.g. on the bespin platform, some **** comes in and rockets all over the platform - 10 people in different corners of the world immediately shout at their computers... this person didnt deserve this/these kills - if say 10 people are watching 2 people duel, and they all have their sabers off, they are fair game - hell, no one with their saber off is fair game - the reasons the whiners whine is cuz people spoil the gaming experience for the sake of a couple of kills that i really can't see how they get enjoyment from - i mean how can they think they deserve em?

 

we've just gotta get used to the fact that, at the moment, there are loads of n00bs around who don't know what they're doing. but soon they willmove on, and the fun will really start.

 

chiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiill

 

peace out

 

m.d.c

[thrEEpaGe]

Originally posted by Essobie

The "rock paper scissors" of JK2 balance works great in vanilla FFA or Dueling... but it completely breaks down in Saber/Force only scenarios because the only real counter for Drain is a gun (Drain removes everything you can do BUT shoot guns).

 

Certain maps (like duel_hanger) make draining your opponent to counter their drain impossible since there is a spot on the map that you can only get to with force jump.

 

If you'd like to argue otherwise, feel free.

 

And remember to NOT take into account that I have less than 30 posts to these forums. =P

 

 

heh i dont immediately look at your posts; i look at your text and then i try to look for a correlation =)

 

on your comment on countering drain, absorb works amazingly well against drain, in addition to not letting them use their strategy, you get force power as well...

also, the fight fire with fire adage works good in this situation too =) drain counters drain...no grip once thier force is gone as well =)

 

guns work so so against drain, but they can still use grip or lightning easily....drain or absorb is your best bet...

[thrEEpaGe]

Originally posted by m.d.c skamonkey

Oooooh, look at my number of posts, isn't it small!!!! Aren't i a loser, and most of all, aren't i a NOOOOOOOOOOB!!!!!! well, no

 

i've been following these forums for months, had the game on the day of purchase, and feel i'm a pretty good MP type guy. however, i'll never post to a forum unless there is a reason for me to - if i wanna comment on something new, or something someone's said, and if i havent got anything to add, i'm not gonna waste anyones time. but i have been FOLLOWING i.e. reading the forums for months.

 

n00bs: n00bs are bad. they are bad because they spoil the gaming experience, and make it harder for the rest of us to have fun. BUT they've gotta be tolerated - we're all n00bs to all games at some point.

 

whiners: i think to an extent whiners are a good thing - they stop people from getting kills where they don't deserve them, like in real cool dueling situations e.g. on the bespin platform, some **** comes in and rockets all over the platform - 10 people in different corners of the world immediately shout at their computers... this person didnt deserve this/these kills - if say 10 people are watching 2 people duel, and they all have their sabers off, they are fair game - hell, no one with their saber off is fair game - the reasons the whiners whine is cuz people spoil the gaming experience for the sake of a couple of kills that i really can't see how they get enjoyment from - i mean how can they think they deserve em?

 

we've just gotta get used to the fact that, at the moment, there are loads of n00bs around who don't know what they're doing. but soon they willmove on, and the fun will really start.

 

chiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiill

 

peace out

 

m.d.c

 

 

i regret commenting about the number of posts; i was just noting a correlation b/w whiners and new users...im sorry! heh =)

 

about your comments, i disagree with some of them

 

1) about whiners

whiners are definitely not needed, unless they are whining about hacks..whining about getting rocketed while you are sabering in an open ffa is stupid... however, when the host or the players in general tells those who come out that !sab (no saber) = peace and those coming in do not honor that, i do believe in whining in that situation, (even though there is a dueling map style)...

 

2) newbies

i dont think that newbies are all bad...some are the stereotypical newbies, dumb and arrogant...but some recognise that they need to get their butt kicked to get stronger (the faster you realise this, the faster you will get better).... those newbies arent newbies IMO...most newbies (in the actual sense of stereotypes) stay newbies for a very long time, simply because they dont want or dont know how, or cant get any better because of how they look at things...being a newbie isnt about new or old, bad or good, its about attitude....i also think that newbieage (heh) carries on to other games...thats what i have experienced in virtually every game, especially with my friends at school who are single player players....thats what i have noticed...