thrEEpaGe Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 i dont see many sith bounty hunters...hmm... well personally, the only thing that makes jedi all powerful is simply the force, and it is very hard to make the force powerful enough in the game without making it uber uber cheap (as cheap as it is in the universe)...and also, since when is EVERYONE a jedi? obviously not in the books or movies or should they be...obviously the game isnt close to the books or movies, so that classifies it more towards a blend of the two worlds, fps, and sw....i think that this game would be horrifically boring if it only offered force powers and sabers....thats fine for MP for some people, but overall, guns must be in the game to offer more gameplay variations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Wolf Posted April 8, 2002 Author Share Posted April 8, 2002 I tend to disagree vanor, the statement is dead on because it is in fact an "action game" not a RPG, if people wanna role play as "jedi" and all that then wait for that mmorpg star wars game. If you want to have a good time and use some fancy lightsabers play jedi knight 2. Its a game, not a way of life, im not going to nit pick over what should be and what shouldnt be in the game because its already there, live..deal..cope..play on a private server..whatever you gotta do, the point i was making was dont whine about it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrEEpaGe Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 i wasnt either...i was just saying that the force powers are made to be equal with guns, and that we shouldnt stop people from using guns...im a gunner at heart...i love em heh =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lnt. Kechtt Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 Originally posted by Vanor The name of this game is Star Wars: Jedi Knight this game is based on the Star Wars universe, and in that universe you don't see Jedi walking around with rocket launchers or lobbing engergy grenades. Just a brief comment for Vanor: I think that is why Kyle is considered a jedi outcast, because he does use a lot more then his sabre. With guns, I'm a sniper at heart. It's a little more difficult to do that with the sabre. I enjoy finding the quiet cornor untill I run out of ammo. Maybe that's one reason I like the fact that the distruptor uses 30 ammo per mondo-sniper shot. It means I don't park for very long. I just play for the challange of facing sabre with guns. I acually enjoy charging a gunner with my sabre (or versa visa) and trying to kill them before then get me. It's a challange and that's what I like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 Originally posted by Silent Wolf Its a game, not a way of life, im not going to nit pick over what should be and what shouldnt be in the game because its already there, live..deal..cope..play on a private server..whatever you gotta do, the point i was making was dont whine about it here. I agree with this statement Like I said, I'm of two minds on this issue. One the one hand, I can understand and support the "don't like guns, go play on a saber only server" group. But on the other hand, I can understand people being upset that the game isn't more true to the SW universe. But at the same time, I think if things were done much differently the game wouldn't be as much fun. Take the realisticsaber fighting command, I tried this in SP and found it wasn't as much fun. It was more realistic but wasn't as dramtic and I like my saber fights to be a bit longer. If this was the norm then dueling would be over very quickly and this wouldn't be as much fun IMO. I think what will likely happen, and one of the cool things about games in this day and age, is we will see mod's that fit in better with what some people like. I could see a mod based somewhat on the Jedi Master game style being made. Where if you use a gun your force powers are disabled, if you use a saber then you get to use the force... A mod like this would be somewhat popular I think and would be a good answer to those who like to play with guns in the FFA but want a game more true to Star Wars. As far as guns owning sabers and such... I've seen serveral people say that guns will beat a saberest every time, and seen people say that they can beat a gunner with a saber without much problem... I personaly think that far to few people have mastered the saber/force enough to really know if guns vs saber is balanced or not yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 Originally posted by Lnt. Kechtt Just a brief comment for Vanor: I think that is why Kyle is considered a jedi outcast, because he does use a lot more then his sabre. Maybe I think that it's more due to the fact that he turned his back on the force and gave it up. Dessan is also a outcast because he turned his back on the light side and turned to the dark side. I understand why some people like guns, I like em myself too I haven't done this in JK2 yet, but I remember serveral times in JK running around a level with the con rifle and racking up kills... It was a great deal of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zek Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 People seem obsessed with the concept that lightsabers are the most powerful weapon in the universe. This isn't the case at all. The Force is the most powerful weapon in the Star Wars universe. In JK2, everyone is a Jedi, they just have different tastes in weapons. What's the problem with that? JK/JK2 is one of the only places I've heard of a Jedi that uses guns; what's so unrealistic about the concept? If you want proof that sabers and force really are capable of dominating players, go find one of the very few Jedi Master gametype servers. The Jedi Master has nothing but the saber and level 3 in every force power, and any decent player just DOMINATES the game with them. I've seen the JM singlehandedly slaughter 3-4 repeater/flak users all attacking him. It's no different in FFA, you just have to pick the force powers you're going to use the most. Sabers are extremely powerful, and if you really want to you can do extremely well with them. The reason people think they're inferior is because they really don't get the points quite as fast(in most cases). The explosive guns can just rake in the kills, which is why the #1 person so often seems to be obsessed with them. One on one, a saber user can often win, it's just that there are so many people in the game he can catch unaware and who don't know how to fight him that he'll get the most points anyway. People have to stop complaining about "I'm a Jedi, I should be able to beat any gun user!" News flash, they're Jedi too, just using different weapons! Go play singleplayer if you want a more Star Wars-like Jedi experience. In multiplayer, you don't have an advantage over anyone, so get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Wolf Posted April 8, 2002 Author Share Posted April 8, 2002 Vanor, Well said , btw id like to thank each and everyone of you for contributing to what i feel is the first "mature" conversation on this subject. The community thanks you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkSide Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 I personaly think that far to few people have mastered the saber/force enough to really know if guns vs saber is balanced or not yet. Yeah that's the danger involved. This game has been out for a little more than a week. Compared to other FPS's which pretty much have different weapons for balance, JK2 throws on top of that 12 force powers which can be put at different levels and several different gametypes which can amplify or attenuate those force powers. How do you tell if anything is balanced or imbalanced? Certainly not after one week of playing. As far as I can tell, EVERYTHING in this game has a counter. I haven't seen a strategy yet that has been completely invincible. More of what I experience is a frustration that what I think should be balanced by something is in reality balanced by something else. For example, the whole drain issue. In FFA or Team FFA, not a big deal. Teaming up on a drainer, occupying his attention and concentration by others, or simply using guns. In a 1v1 sabers only duel though, dark vs light, drain *will* get ya. The only real counter to veteran use of drain for a Light jedi is a non-saber weapon. Absorb will give you a short window to take care of business, but evasive manuevering to outlast the absorb is not terribly difficult, especially with a vet at the controls. In my perfect vision of the game, the force powers alone would completely balance each other out. Every Dark offensive power has a light counter and then it comes down to your skills with those powers. It appears to be not the case though. One small issue I do have that I am surprised hasn't yet been brought up yet in this thread, is the whole fact that if you go into a match knowing you will be solely a force-gunner, that gives you something on the order of 30-35+ force points to throw around, emptying out all your LS force point allocations. Quite an imbalance if you ask me. TDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmerBob Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 Originally posted by Canis_Aureus We should be able to customize our servers: ... 2. Enable or disable each force power individually. I would like to see that the server could configure the maximum rank for each force. A lot of your ideas were really good Canis! But I have to disagree with this one. Sabers vs. guns aside, I feel that the Force should either be there in it's entirety or not at all. If admins really want to have this level of control over their server, they can make a mod for it.... but I honestly doubt that many players are likely to stick around long on such a server. A toggle between "light side only" or "dark side only" would be believable. Maybe not too popular, but still acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanor Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 Slient Wolf: Thanks I think it's possable to have a mature discusion on this topic, hopefully it will help people see that things aren't as bad as they think they are. Zek makes some rather good points, that I'd like to expound on a bit Saber vs Gun Anyone who says the saber is a better weapon then a gun, isn't being honest with themself IMO. There's a reason that long swords and maces stopped being used as weapons of war. Because rifles and cannons made them ineffective on a battle field. Lightsabers are different because they can block/deflect incoming fire... But a normal person can't really do that with a lightsaber, it takes the force and training to do that. Which brings up the next point. The Force The force is what makes a jedi knight, a jedi knight... not a lightsaber. With the force as my allie I can take out scores of stormtroopers/imperial officers with out much trouble (in SP). This is the reason that the Emperor and Lord Vader hunted down the jedi, they knew that they could never take over and be secure as long as jedi were around. I've tried the Jedi Master game mode, and it was quite enjoyable, someone skilled in the use of the force and a lightsaber is hard to beat. No matter how good you are with a gun, a Jedi Knight is hard to beat when he/she can use jedi mind tricks, force speed, push, pull, lighting, ect. I'm no JK god, or even expert... But I'm willing to bet that in a "duel" where I have the lightsaber and jedi knight level force powers vs a gunner with no force who is roughtly the same skill level as me, I'd win 8/10 times. There are however people skilled enough with guns that even the force wouldn't be enough to keep me from getting my but kicked though This brings up the real issue here... Not saber vs guns, persay... but Jedi with gun vs Jedi with saber. I believe that there are some people who are upset, because they figured that they'd be able to stomp on a gunner if they played a jedi without much problem. However I think that there are people who feel that Raven has lost the proper SW feel in MP. No where in any of the stories/moves that I'm aware of does force and guns happen, and this I think is what irritates people the most. There will be other games out there that let you play Jedi more accurately based on the movie, the SW MMORPG, and Knights of the Old Republic, but I think people expected this game to stay truer to the spirt of SW, and have a right to express their disapointment if it didn't live up to that. Myself... heh I'm really not too worried about it either way, I tend to play mostly saber duels so it's not a big issue. But I am enjoying this debate/discussion on the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fyunch Click Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 I believe a lot of your opinion is also going to be based on the gametype that you play. If you are playing a FFA with guns then it's a wide open experience, you have that added knowledge that at any point someone could lob a missle at your exposed back while you are dueling 2 opponents and they would never say a word. If you are playing CTf however, I'm of the opinion that guns are necessary and good. With the ability for a flag runner to run at 75% his normal speed and roll and bunny hop on op of that in addition to dark raging if he's gone to the dark side (that'd be 175% normal speed w/dark rage) you Have to have guns in order to properly help to defend and recover the flag. It helps to even it out. Guns don't bug me. I use them. It depends on the situation, sometimes a gun works better than a sword. Sometimes a saber works better than a gun. They are both means to an end one is just more elegant if used properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toolboi Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 My only problem with sabers is the dammage that they do. I understand that its required for the cool saber battles, but when you are RIGHT in front of a guy with a blaster and you are just slashing (I understand the whole tactics bit, but taking the pure case in which you are slashing and he is firing) IMO you (the guy with the saber) should win. It seems silly that at close range a blaster does more damage than a saber. Mind you Ive learnt that the trick is to kick them, do the over head slash or whatever to either get them on the ground or get behind them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaG|Kaiser Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 Never bring a knife to a gun fight. Any FF gunner who has half a brain will bury you before you get even close to touching him with your saber. Sure, it's fun to do that sort of thing to newbies. But your tactics with the saber wouldn't last 5 minutes in a competitive server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheArch Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 what made JK-I guns vs. sabers fun was that force pull actually worked! You could be a gunner Jedi w/ absorb on. Otherwise if you wanted to use a gun on a Jedi you had to keep your distance otherwise you would have your gun neatly ripped from your grasp. Now, near as I can tell, Pull is totally useless except in terms of grabbing the flag runner in CTF. I only get someones gun about 1 pull in 4. This is the one area I am most frustrated with in Multiplayer, when you are in close-quarters with a gunner (unless absorb is on) a saber weilder should be able to "relieve" the gunner of his weapon and move in for the kill. This would help balance out the "glowing blue ball of doom" problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenMist Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 Use all the weapons and tactics that are available.. then learn how to counter each one effectivly and you will own. there is no try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrEEpaGe Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 ahh some reason in an otherwise barren wasteland of insight =) heh actually, ive never heard boba fett whining about people using unfair tactics on him...or people who complain that boba fett's abilities are cheap in the books and in the movies.... hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torquemada Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 Originally posted by JaG|Kaiser Never bring a knife to a gun fight. Any FF gunner who has half a brain will bury you before you get even close to touching him with your saber. Sure, it's fun to do that sort of thing to newbies. But your tactics with the saber wouldn't last 5 minutes in a competitive server. What crap, another sweeping generalization from the peanut gallery. I've been playing strictly saber/force since I got the game and I've killed plenty of gun whores. That's not saying I haven't had my ass handed to me now and then, but I'm consistantly staying in the top third in ffa maps. The single biggest advantage I have found is to stay as far away from crowds of people on the server as possible. It's much easier to pick off that alt-fire guy when you have room to jump around (Tribes 2 anyone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panacea Posted April 9, 2002 Share Posted April 9, 2002 If I wanted to play with guns, I'd go play UT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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