Hurin Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 Generally, I'm in WhiteChedda's camp. . . I usually go pretty easy on software companies because putting out perfect code (or even relatively bug-free) code is *much* more difficult than the average whining fan-boy is willing to accept. Having said that, however, I'm not frustrated with the bugginess in the game, I'm frustrated with Raven's *total* lack of communication with its customers. Would it be so very difficult for them to say: "Our testing has duplicated the following bugs. We are working on a patch. Thanks everyone!" Instead, we get absolutely freakin' nothing. . . except for a few posts the day after release which essentially said "Don't try to use your hardware to its full potential" in one way or another (don't go above 1024x768, use older drivers, etc.). Since then. . . total silence. It's the silence that causes anger and resentment. . . not the bugs/problems. Hurin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mertado Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 This is funny. I talked with the lead prgrammer of JK2 at Raven yesterday and he told me straight up that they knew about the bugs and they are working on the patch right now. Apparently, it's a complex issue and needs a unique plan of action before implementing something that may break other parts of the game. Would you rather they be skimming multiple forums and answering questions or fixing the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 All that most people here wanted was an acknowledgment of the problems and to hear that Raven was working on it. Instead we hear nothing from LA or Raven about freezes while they do address other issues. This makes people think that they are being purposefully ignored, since there are a lot of posts here and probably elsewhere as well about the problems. If Raven made a statement to the effect of what Mertado was allegedly told, most people would be perfectly happy to wait for a solution. Raven has not made such a statement yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolarWind Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 Man, can some of ya'll whine or what? You want absolutely perfect software? Sure, give em ten years to develop it. By then the graphics'll be outdated and so will the game. Bugs are a fact of life, and neither LA nor Raven owe anything for your particular problems. And about the tech support guy: Lay off already. And of you people ever held crappy jobs like that? I friggin' hate my job. Standing at a counter doing checkouts sucks, especially when everybody thinks you're an idiot who can't ring stuff up right. Bottom line: Stop whining, read the manual, be nice to your waiters/servers/whoever is serving you, wash your hands, brush your teeth, etc. Above all have a nice day. (Military: I think the military programs in binary or machine language. Not sure which. Makes stuff run so much faster, which, as you can imagine, is important in the military.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurin Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 Originally posted by Mertado This is funny. I talked with the lead prgrammer of JK2 at Raven yesterday and he told me straight up that they knew about the bugs and they are working on the patch right now. Apparently, it's a complex issue and needs a unique plan of action before implementing something that may break other parts of the game. Would you rather they be skimming multiple forums and answering questions or fixing the game? What an absolutely moronic thing to say. . . How long does it take to write what you just wrote? One post here, made sticky at the top. . . or an email to one of the moderators would take care of it. Customer service is based on communication. Software companies are not exempt from providing customer service because they're *really* busy. Everyone is really busy. Some people/companies *make* time when they value their customers. I'm sensing some "Raven can do no wrong!" hero worship going on here. I used to think they were one of the best too. . . and they may still be at development. . . but their customer service (or that of LucasArts) leaves a lot to be desired. Best Regards, Hurin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mertado Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 Same amount of time it took you to write that idiotic statement. The only 'moronic' thing here is the way you interpreted what I've written. The people I talked to were developers, not PR people, and not customer service. Game development isn't a service industry. Where did you get that idea from? If anything, the publisher, LucasArts or Activision, would be the one to make any official announcements. If you ask any of the Raven folks, they'll tell you the same thing. Patches have to pass LucasArts and Activision before they can even be worked on, let alone released. That's the way the industry works. I only told you what I told you to shut up the naysayers. Raven is working on it. They may not be able to tell you themselves. Did you ever think of that? I Thought not. Any time developers hit the forums, it's because they have the time and inclination, not because they have to, nor because they feel they should tell you anything. They aren't under any obligation to tell you sh!t. But apparently, you are exactly the person PolarWind was talking about, a jaded, whiny little b!tch who feels that s/he is somehow entitled to have every piece of information as soon as it's produced. You also feel you are somehow entitled to perfect software right out of the box. Puh-leeze. How many years of 'ship-it and patch-it' will it take before you figure it out? Software isn't perfect and never will be on the PC platform. You want someone to b!tch at for the info blackout? Talk to Activision, and STFU about things you obviously have no frigging clue about. At least the Raven people answer their e-mails and can take suggestions and criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathtrapX Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 Hate getting into lame flame wars but mertado unless its a mass conspiracy from what I know ... you pay something called CURRENCY for video games. Now lets see ... you call people a buncha of idiots who think their entitled to every bit of info produced? I am giving my hard earned money for a product ... a product that happens to be a video game. For 50 dollars I damn well expect BUGS that are in a RELEASED game to be fixed. Unfortunatly games are not priced on their stability and quality .. while jedi knight 2 is a great game, its deffintly not worth 50 dollars the way it is. Nothing irritates me more then a product shipped off obviously to early for simple marketing purposes. So before you go parading the Raven flag about take a step back and ask all the people who paid money for this game if they should be kept in the closest while they got a non working / poorly working game on their computer. And exactly what was mentioned above ... one sticky, one reply saying a patch is in the works and we'd all stfu (and don't give me this ****ing gestapo crap "They might not be able to tell you themselves!" this is a starwars licensed video game ... not a god damn space ship) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurin Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 Mertado. . . First of all, settle down sparky! If you had read my multiple posts in this thread and others ( http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35985&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 and http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37684 ), I have said over and over again that a lot of us are upset due to the lack of communication. . . not because the software isn't perfect. Assume and assert what you want. . . but I never said I had any problem with the game having technical issues. As for developers not being *obligated* to tell us anything at all. I partially agree. But those who are interested in their products being well received do try to help out in the customer service department. Why don't you hop on over to civfanatics or the Apolyton forums and see how Firaxis treats its customers? They post all the time. . . and I'm sure they consider themselves just as "busy" as the guys at Raven/LucasArts. You can make all the unfounded assumptions about my views on software development you want. . . but it remains a fact that neither LucasArts nor Raven are making much of an effort to make those of us with a broken game feel any better about our purchase (they may be programming their little hearts out as I type this, which will make use happy three weeks from now. . . but how many customers will they lose in the meantime?). It may not be the job of Raven to do so (the fact that I put LucasArts in parantheses in my post indicates that I did indeed think of that), but don't you consider it somewhat incumbent upon them to make *some* type of statement that a patch is on the way now. . . almost three weeks after the game was released? In recent memory, Civ3, Moh:AA, Black & White, all needed show-stopping bug fixes right out of the box. . . and within hours (or a day or two on the outside), the word was out from the publisher that a patch was on they way. Please don't blame us for holding LucasArts/Raven/Activision to the standards practiced by their competitors. Honestly, it suprises me that so many people find this silence to be acceptable. I understand where you're coming from. . . I worked tech support for two years for a local ISP. I've also worked for a software development house (as Network Admin, not as programmer). I've seen it from both sides. As I've said time and time again, I'm usually pro-developer. . . and I can't stand how people expect games to be perfect and tailored specifically to their individual needs. Heck, I was one of those abused souls that stuck up for OSI during the first few years of UO and during the U9 debacle. I usually give developers the benefit of the doubt. But, again, the difference there was that the developers for U9 (and, less suprisingly since it is an ongoing MMORPG, UO) were very communicative about the problems with the game. . . in short, they talked to us (despite being busy). Was "Capn' Bill" (the lead programmer) obligated to ease his customer's frustrations? No, probably not. . . but did it make me feel better about sticking up for OSI and cause many of U9's critics to shut the hell up? Yes, it did. The fact remains that LucasArts and Raven have gone *completely* quiet. Congrats on talking to the "lead programmer" for JKII. . . but unless you can send me his phone number, I don't think I have that option. But, obviously, it says volumes about their level of customer service that we had to hear news about the patch from you, rather than from an official source. Obviously, I shouldn't have used the term moronic in describing your post. But, apperently, you're even more predisposed to flying off the handle and spouting insults than I am. Why don't we return this to a civil tone. For my part, I'm sorry I used such inflammatory language. I am really, however, dumbfounded as to why so many people jump all over users on this board for posting problems and expressing frustration over lack of feedback. How can any of these users feel that their problem will be fixed if they have no real indication that Raven is even aware of their particular problem? I for one assume that most of the problems will be fixed in a patch eventually, but for those of us with more obscure/bizarre problems, it would be very nice for *some* word out of LucasArts/Raven as to what they have confirmed as problems and what we can expect from a patch. Otherwise, some of wonder if we need to email LucasArts again. . . and make our problem descriptions even more clear. I don't know how I can be more clear. . . despite your somewhat frustrating assertions about how I feel about software in general, I have absolutely no problem with software not being perfect. I have always stuck up for software developers as long as I felt they were giving customer service a good honest effort. Frankly, there are other companies out there at this very moment doing a better job of pleasing their customers. . . and there is nothing wrong with holding LucasArts and Raven to a standard being established by their competition. Of course, that's just my opinion and I am only one customer. Your money is just as good to them as mine. You are free to simply be happy with their level of support (especially if the game works fine for you). But, for the last two-three weeks, I've just been waiting for a post to the JKII news sites from LucasArts/Raven or a relevant answer to my email(s). Neither have been forthcoming. Between Lucasarts, Raven, and Activision, you would think *someone* would make *some* statement without putting a terrible strain on the development team's workload. My opinion: That's extremely poor customer service. Your opinion obviously differs. Hurin P.S. I'm sorry I turned this into a flame-fest. I won't respond from here because frankly, I don't want to get banned. You can call that wussing out if you like. . . but I learned long ago (from the other side of the argument) that there is no "winning" these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathtrapX Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 Brovo man ... I to am really suprised at the user response to problems and the lack of feedback. If I didn't know better I swear I'd think raven is distributing gestapos over the net lol. Let's just hope these problems get fixed because its a shame to let a game rott on my shelf thats so great ... and believe me, its going to get 0 play time untill a patch comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted April 19, 2002 Share Posted April 19, 2002 Why would someone program their little heart out working on a patch which they are not going to be payed for when they have a contract to finish an entire other game for which they will be payed??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurin Posted April 19, 2002 Share Posted April 19, 2002 I think it's safe to assume that, in most cases, a period of patches and bug fixes are included in the initial contract. Though I could be wrong. Hurin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindwarp Posted April 20, 2002 Share Posted April 20, 2002 delete me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindwarp Posted April 20, 2002 Share Posted April 20, 2002 Originally posted by WhiteChedda Its just you netskimmer, Poster55, just owned someone.Thrawn, perhaps your just over the age of 70 and have halfheimers. ftp.idsoftware.com I'm not gonna say anything else about people's so called perfect software, heh....................... Lucasarts perfect software, LMAO, You ever try rogue commander? Shudder................. The language you use to program is less than one half of what we are talking about here. Certain languages may be prone to certain mistakes, like say forgetting a semicolon or using a null pointer, but the majority of software mistakes are language independent, like forgetting to initilize a variable to a specified value or misspelling a function or file name........... Neverending loops manage to show up in every language, as well as decision statements where the test yields an invalid result. Heck these even cross teh realm from modular programming to object oriented, which I seriously doubt you clearly understand the meaning of those two terms. Now I ask you one more time, WHO HAS hired you and your software engineering expertise? I take it so far the answer is no one because you don't have the foggiest notion what your going on about. The least error prone software is aviation software, and its not written in C++, they choose Ada because of its exception handling. Actually certain military software probably is more secure, but alas. I have no idea what language was used for it, and likely never will as its something they call classified I am sure. oops I think I just posted empty reply, sry bout that... Anyway, the story I heard (myth?) is that NASA (or some other agency) tried to estimate the cost of software that has less then 1 bug per 10.000 lines of code, and came up with 1000$ per line if complex enough (yes I know you can write "Hello World" in anything 10.000 times but that does not qualify). I have seen some awesome code, but I never saw a bug free one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phobos512 Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 I haven't had a single problem with this game *giggle* As a matter of fact, I just beat it day before yesterday and I'm starting to get into mp now and it just kicks that much more ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathtrapX Posted April 21, 2002 Share Posted April 21, 2002 For sure mind warp , bug free software is almost never possible theres always going to be something rittled away in there. But theres a difference between bugged software that can still operate and bugged software thats inoperable. 3/4ths of jk2's problems are very serious , causing minimal play back or nothing at all. Anywase I wouldn't be so pissed if there was a sticky up this moment saying in the next few months there will be a fix for these well known problems ... but lucas and raven seem to be giving less of a **** every day, untill we see that sticky ... think most of our attitudes (least those who suffer from the bugs) are screw off. Bugged software isnt the end of the world , but when a developer ships off that software in a rush for simple marketing purposes then neglects to even communicate with the public that payed for their product that just piss's me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediDrew Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 Well I just beat the game this weekend, so I'd just like to tell Raven not to bother releasin a patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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