Confederate Skin

[Mafia_Jabba]

lmao BIAS LMAO he was tactically and statistically better than any general the union had. the union won in resources and numbers, and won just the really important battles. going by numbers the confederates won more than the union but lost tramendously at antietam (spelling) and gettysburg a large number of their forces wich truely reduced their army and didn't allow R Lee to work at his full potential. He was ranked as a great military leader, and there is no bias in that statement.

[Jedi Legend]

They wouldn't have lost Gettysburg if it weren't for Pickett's charge. As an Union supporter (well, I would have been one if I lived 150 years ago) I can't say I'm too upset about that move.

 

But, you have to let it go. It's one thing to be a Civil War buff, but to be angry at either the North or the South is a completely different thing.

 

BTW, the war also started because of the failure of a few compromises (Missouri Compromise, ect.). Bleeding Kansas played a large role, as well.

 

Robert E. Lee was a brilliant general. He would have been tough to beat had the Confederates blown it at Antietam.

[geronimo27]

Originally posted by Chiori

What does the south think the war was about? *g*

 

Chiori

 

The Civil War, or more officially titled but less known as The War for States' rights, was about just that - states' rights. It all started with the 10th Amendment. The 10th Amendment states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The Southern states believed that the federal government had failed to honor the covenant that had originally bound the states together, and thus wanted to secede.

 

The confederate flag represents the South as a whole, their pride and heritage, and does not represent slavery. Those who feel it does, both blacks and whites, are sorely mistaken and will undoubtedly prove their ignorance on the issue.

 

I bet you did not know that the border states that remained in the Union were slave states? If this war was about slavery, then how could the North fight against slavery but own slaves themselves?

 

Furthermore, Lincoln's commanders attempted to emancipate slaves to help in the war, but Lincoln countered their orders. Eventually, Lincoln decided to annouce that slaves should go free because he thought that this announcement would help cause rebellion from the slaves, thus further hurting the economy in the South.

 

Anywho, enough of history and fact - back to the flag... I am all for the South because I was bron and raised in the South, and know what the flag truly represents - and not what the sterotypical thoughs on the matter are. On the other hand, I wouldn't use the skin in JK2 because it doesn't fit with the whole Sci-fi theme.

 

Just my $0.02, and a bit of a history lesson.

[Pol Favre]

very well said, geronimo!

 

the confederate flag is an awesome flag, and i wear it around my neck because im proud of my haritage. does this mean i hate african americans? far from it. does this mean i love to watch WWF? i hate wwf. im not a redneck, i don't live in a trailer, i don't even hardly have an accent anymore.

 

 

 

 

i don't think anyone here is angry at the north, at least i know im not and i don't know anyone who is. however there ARE many people who are angry at the south still, and those who bear it's flag.

[Kurgan]

This may get sent to the swamp soon..

 

On a related topic, there's a sci fi novel series using the American Civil War (aka the war between the states) as a theme, William R. Forschen's Lost Regiment. Anybody read those?

 

They're campy at times and formulaic, but I can tell author

really enjoys the historical aspects of it, and I'm hooked.. reading

the last book right now. ; )

 

Personally I'm glad to see people making non-star wars skins for JK2. I'd be bored if that's all we got out of the vast potential of this mod community (only star wars skins, I mean)!

[Jaif]

I think Lee was a great general. However, he did have his faults. His strategy lead directly to the attacks into northern territory which resulted in his two great defeats; Antietam & Gettysburg. In fact, had McClellan not been such a numb-nutz (read "Landscape Turned Red"), the entire southern army would have been defeated in detail, with perhaps Jackson escaping to the south with a rag-tag fugitive fleet... oops, slipped genres. :-)

 

I tend to rate Lee - Jackson - Grant - Sherman all around the same level, and leave it there. All had their failures, all had moments of great brilliance, and trying to argue the nibbly bits at the edges is a pain.

[enDless_Deliriu]

Random civil war fact:

 

The Emancipation Proclamation did NOT free all slaves. If you read it, it frees all slaves in the "rebelling"(Confederate) states. The reason? As much for political gain, as to get all the slaves in the south to rebel and fight against their owners. After all, if one side is offering freedom, the deal is only good for as long as that side is still around.

 

Otherwise, a lot of good stuff has been said in this thread. I'm not American, but it is both a good mark and a bad mark about the U.S.A. that so many of it's children were willing to fight for what they believed in. Good, because of just that, bad, because they ended up fighting each other in the end.

 

 

As far as History goes. History is written by the winners, and presented differently depending on where you learn it. Go to England and learn about the American Revolution. It's a lot different there than what they teach in North America.

[Denise]

Out of curiousity, has anyone else read the various states' declarations of seccession? While it's true that the war can hardly be said to have been fought exclusively over the issue of slavery, it's also apparent that the issue is far, far more prevalent in these articles than many would like to admit.

 

States' rights was indeed an issue, but first and foremost among those "rights" being fought over was the issue of slavery. South Carolina launches into a lengthy tirade on just why slavery cannot be acted against. Mississippi comes right out and says it, in the second sentence no less; "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world."

 

Georgia? "The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery."

 

Or perhaps Texas, a little more restrained on the issue, but it's still prominent... "[Texas] was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. "

 

Perhaps that "pop culture" grasp of history isn't so far wrong. It's narrow-minded in assuming that slavery was the only issue, but it does look rather central to anyone who cares to look: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/csapage.htm

 

Now, as to objecting to a Confederate skin in a computer game, I think that's taking things way too far. But while we're on history I just have to throw my contributions in.

 

As for "history being written by the winners", that's a pretty tired cliché, and not entirely true. History is also written by the participants and by the bystanders, and even by patriots of the side that lost --assuming that they weren't wiped out, and in this case they were not.

[Eternal]

The South was an agrarian economy, and without slavery their economy would have tanked, and their power relative to the North would have been greatly imbalanced. They faced the possibility of their entire economy being destroyed with a penstroke, plus the possibility of an organized group of former slaves possibly taking revenge on the communities as a whole.

 

It wasn't something to be rushed into for sure, and the abolitionists were being foolish if they thought the South wouldn't give them hell.

 

For someone not prone to accepting the popular opinion, the Civil War presents an interesting issues on whether a great injustice should be stopped immediately to save more lives, or prolonged a little longer (so the South could be given time to phase out slavery dependence) so that everybody would be in better shape when it did end.

 

Then again, the Northern industrialists didn't want an industrialized South to compete with them, so there never really was an option. If slavery was going to be stopped, the South wouldn't be given time to adjust beforehand. And yes, Honest Abe was as much a tool of the wealthy as any other president. Many interesting arguments can be made for why his supposedly long-held abolitionist views were never held altruisticaly.

 

And while it's ture that the winner doesn't write the history books, it's definitely true the right guy doesn't always write the history books. Look at the treatment the Rape of Nanking is getting in Japanese texts.

 

All that said, don't get me pegged as a Southerner. I'm born and raised in the very state that saw the birth of the abolitionist Republican Party. Also don't think I'm racist. I'm just cynical.

[RpTheHotrod]

I was at work once and this truckload of teenagers were circling the parking lot waving confederate flags, while honking their horn.

[Eternal]

The Confederate flag still strikes a chord for many, but aside from all the reasons people give, I think the biggest reason they do it is just to show that they're Rebels and they don't care what you think (of course they did or they wouldn't display it). Like waving a flag with the anarchist A.

[Pol Favre]

that's what pisses the most hell out of me, when people use it as a symbol of rebelion.

[Mafia_Jabba]

why? it IS a symbol of rebellion per se

[RahnDelSol]

For the uneducated, perhaps...

 

Most of us Southerners view the flag as a symbol of our history AND our present.

 

The Civil War? Long gone, over, and done with. Some delusional people still try to bring it up, sure...but we just ignore them for the most part.

 

For many of us, the Stars 'n Bars represent our land and way of life. Pride in your home, respect for your neighbors, love for your family, all that stuff

 

Yeah, there are some misguided types who'll use the flag the wrong way, and it bothers the heck out of most of us. But, you'll get that just about anywhere you go, in one form or another.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the swastika a symbol of peace until the Nazi's came along? Their use of it ruined that symbol completely.

 

Well, we don't want groups like the KKK to ruin OUR symbol, nor do we want misguided "politically correct" types trying to tell us what we really mean when we fly the flag.

 

Living in Virginia, I see the confederate flag a lot...and most people who display it often have it right alongside the American flag.

 

Pride in the South...Pride in our Country. Ain't nothin' wrong with that.

[Mafia_Jabba]

for the uneducated?

 

so basically, morons believe the south rebelled? is this debateable, its more like fact? Standing for what u believe in, is not rebellion against the status quo? hmmmm...

[RahnDelSol]

You mean "is", I mean "was".

 

It "was" used during the rebellion of the civil war, but that's over...long, long over.

 

Anyone who tries to use it NOW as a symbol of rebellion is, well...uneducated.

[Mafia_Jabba]

i think YOU are uneducated for making that uneducated symbol. Ok so we use a lot of symbols that are long over the represent things. The cross for intance, ok...jesus already died...ok.....? see you just dont think about things.

[RahnDelSol]

I'd try to argue with you, but you seem to lack any sort of logic. Your last post REALLY didn't make much sense. And calling me uneducated? Please.

 

Oh well, I've made the points I wanted to make, and I'm not going to get drawn into a flame war with someone who doesn't have a clue

 

(edit) Besides, symbols change over time. The Cross is viewed as a "good" symbol for the most part. But Jesus DIED on the cross, how can THAT be good? Right? The cross was pretty much a torture device when it came to killing people.

[Mafia_Jabba]

.......ok i didn't even say it was a good symbol even though it is...its pretty hard to explain its goodness for anyone who doesn't already know.....ok jesus died for us so we could go to heaven...a good thing..we want to go to heaven right? so the cross is a symbol of hope...and the confederate flag hasn't changed...it was rebellion against things that might threaten the way of life and it still is a symbol of rebellion against things that might threaten beliefs..for instance

 

my friends like the confederate flag...and? r they KKK or red necks or whatever? no...it means that they are willing to rebel and protect their interests...ok? rebellion