Well today I went and used some guns.

[Solo4114]

I just finished playing two rounds of CTF, and I've got a few thoughts on the whole multiplayer component of the game.

 

1.) It bores the crap out of me.

 

Given the general uselessness of a sabre in multiplay, especially CTF, the game ends up being just another Q3 mod. And frankly, that doesn't impress me a bit. Raven's last game was like this too. Elite Force. Great SP feel. Immersive, true to the feeling of the TV show, had a bunch of neat-o weapons, etc. Multiplayer, although I never played online, was yet another boring Q3 mod. The weapons were all essentially the same as those going back to Q2. You had your railgun/sniper rifle, your basic pistol, your rocket launcher, your grenade launcher, etc. They just have different names and different graphics. The Heavy Repeater in JO is essentially the old Q2 chaingun plus the grenade launcher. The flechette weapon is essentially UT's flak cannon, etc., etc. You get the point. If I want to play a game like that, I'll reinstall Q3 or UT and play those. Most likely I'll reinstall UT, because Q3 NEVER impressed me. Flashy graphics, yes, but boring gameplay. Too much emphasis on DM. And frankly, I HATE DM. It's chaotic, random, and boring. I realize there are lots of folks out there who love DM, and that's fine. They're welcome to it. All games (except RTCW) support it, so it's not like they can't find one to play. And I'm not saying "Go play DM, you DM losers!" or something to that effect. I'm just saying it's not for me. I think that, unless your game is like RTCW, it should have a DM option, which this game has. Which is fine. HOWEVER....

 

2.) The game is NOT immersive.

 

t doesn't even feel like a SW mod, honestly. Yes, we've got lightsabres, yes, there are SW player models and sounds, and there are a few blasters, but honestly, it just doesn't feel like SW to me. Not in the MP portion, anyway. I know a lot of these guns have their origins in the first Dark Forces game, so to a certain extent, you'd have people saying "Where's the repeater??? Dammit! They shouldn't have taken that out!!" if you didn't have them it the game. But at the same time, I do think that guns need to be an OPTION, not the dominating factor. Towards that end, I propose the following class-based system.

 

3.) The Class system

 

I think a class system would make the game MUCH more fun (I've always been a fan of class-style games) AND would increase the immersiveness of the game. I'm not talking about MoTS's classes, because frankly, those were never all that great, to me. My ideas for classes are as follows:

 

- The Trooper

 

Your basic all-purpose soldier. He'd start out with 125 health, and 100 shields. He carries the following weapons/items: E-11 (if Empire) or DL-17 (the Rebel gun seen in the opening of ANH), flechette gun, missile launcher, 2 bacta tanks, 3 thermal detonators, a sentry gun, and a portable force field. The soldier's speed is essentially your baseline measure for speed. Figure that the soldier runs at 75% speed. The soldier makes a FANTASTIC assault or defense class. With his rocket launcher and flechette weapons, he can clear a room relatively easily, but can't roll and can't jump any higher than your average non-force user. He has no force powers. That's right. I said none.

 

- The Smuggler

 

The smuggler would be a jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none. He'd start out with 100 health, 25 shields. He'd carry: E-11, Blastech DL-44 (an accurate, fast-firing, but low powered pistol -- faster than the bryar, and a little more powerful -- with a secondary fire that shoots slower, but deals double damage -- would need a mod for this), grappling hook, two seeker drones, and one bacta tank. The main advantage of the smuggler, however, is his speed and agility. He'd be able to roll with any weapon (as opposed to the sabre only), and would essentially have level two jumping abilities. He moves at 125% speed. The smuggler, by virtue of his chosen profession, also has an ammo reserve, which means that he can carry any type of ammunition, and can dispense it to his comrades in moments of need. This, however, is different from RTCW's Lieutenant class, in that the smuggler's reserve is only 2 packs of each ammo type to start with, and it does not replenish unless he picks up fallen weapons from the enemy. Aside from Force Jump 2, the smuggler has no other force powers.

 

- The Bounty Hunter

 

Feared and respected by all, even the Jedi, the Bounty Hunter is a formidable force on the battlefield. He starts with only 75 health, but 150 shields (to reflect the high quality of his armor). His weapons/items include: 6 thermal detonators, the disintegrator rifle (I'd change the weapon model to an EE-3, however -- Boba Fett's rifle from ESB and ROTJ), Wookiee Bowcaster, immobilizing rope (works like force grip 1 -- holds a player in place, but the Bounty Hunter can't move, and it causes no damage), wrist rockets (essentially a wrist-mounted missile launcher but the missiles only do 10% of the damage that normal missiles do. They fire quickly, however), and a short range flame thrower. He does not receive any Bacta tanks, or other items (like the sentry or seeker). The Bounty hunter has no force powers, but has a jetpack which operates like Force Jump 3, except that it allows lateral movement without the need for vertical movement. Essentially, he can fly for short distances. Jet fuel replenishes, but is drawn from the force pool. You would also have the immobilizing rope and flame thrower draw from this same pool to balance out his abilities. The Bounty Hunter also is capable of various evasive maneuvers, such as flips, rolls, wall cartwheels, and the face-kick currently in MP. Except that the Bounty Hunter's face kick would do double normal damage (due to the blades on his boots). The Bounty hunter would move at 100% speed. Faster than the Trooper, but slower than the Smuggler and Jedi. His jetpack, however, would propel him at 150% speed (As fast as the Smuggler).

 

- And finally, of course, the Jedi.

 

The Jedi would NOT, I repeat NOT, be the Uber-class in this game. It would, however, be one of the most fun to play. Jedi would start the game with 200 health, but NO shields. Yes, NO SHIELDS. They would carry NO weapons but the lightsabre, which would function at Offense and Defense 3, and throw 3. The Jedi's base speed is 100% (as fast as the Bounty Hunter). I'm debating two options on how to deal with force powers. The first would be essentially that the Jedi could pick either Light or Dark, and then be essentially a master of all skills on a given side (all skills for light/dark maxed, plus max on the neutral skills). The other alternative is to allow the jedi to start with "master" level points to assign (minus the sabre skills points which would be unassignable), and allow the Jedi to choose dark or light paths, and assign the remainder of his points accordingly. Either way, the Jedi would be a essential to the team, as he would be the ONLY class capable of healing damage to his teammates (or energizing his teammates if he chooses the dark side). To encourage team based play and a diversity of classes, the Jedi's team-focused powers would always operate at level 3. All force usage (with the exception of the passive force powers of sabre offense and defense) would draw from the force power pool.

 

So that's it! That's my idea. You could play team DM this way, or CTF/Y. I think it'd be a nice change of pace to the current style of playing.

 

Whaddaya think, sirs?

[BoyInAWhelchair]

Originally posted by Sartis

Well all I really have to say is that guns are way unbalanced, I totally dominated a 12 player game easily just using guns. Anybody who says guns require alot of skill or even moderate skill is a liar. Hell half the time I didn't even need to aim I just saw movement and fire fletchette/repeater yay I win.

.

 

You sir are WHINNER.

 

Guns only outweigh on heavily populated FFA server. Join a 8 player FFA and that is not the case.

 

The servers are running with player limits that are too high for this type of game.

 

There is a defense to everything in this game, why don't you learn them and stop spouting your baseless opinion while sucking your thumb

 

Boy In A Wheelchair

[stellerwinds]

Originally posted by Zodiac

Guns and sabers just don't mix..

 

A nice moronic statement disproved by 4 star wars movies, and soon to be 5.

 

"Luke, you only have a lightsaber, go sit on the sidelines while we deal with jaba. When vader comes then we will all let you fight him and we will watch."

yaaaa

 

Where exactly do your brains reside zodiac? Do they make sitting more comfortable?

 

The entire POINT of being a jedi is that you are able to use a saber to be just as effective and even more effective than gun users. Remember obi-wan called them clumbsy blasters...

[stellerwinds]

Solo i like that class system. Well done.

 

Now all we need are the damn tools.

[Solo4114]

Guns and sabres do mix. They mix just fine. And I would, in no way, want to see guns removed from the game. HOWEVER, I do think that some BALANCING issues could only help further the game dynamics.

 

Ultimately, I want to have the game be as close to the feel of the movies as is possible. I don't mind projectile weapons, I don't even mind rocket launchers. I'd just like to see fights be a bit more fair. If you want to see an exceptionally well balanced game, check out RTCW's multiplayer. To my way of thinking, this is THE new standard in multiplay. Especially since Deathmatch style gaming just bores me to tears. Running around killing everything that moves may work for some of you, but for me, it's incredibly dull. I'm MUCH more into team play, and especially objective based teamplay (IE: blow this up, deactivate that, etc.). I've tried playing JO online a bunch today, and each time I do it, it just BORES me. Even the duels.

 

The game just doesn't FEEL like Star Wars to me. It feels like a Q3 mod. Maybe my suggestions aren't the solution, but I think SOMETHING needs to be done to make the game more immersive and truer to the "Star Wars" feel. Even if it's things as simple as graphical tweaks, like adding in animations for movements in lightsabre combat, or making the sabres clash more. I think these two additions alone would REALLY help the game. But aside from that, the way the game seems right now, in FFA and CTF games, it makes more sense NOT to use a sabre, but to just grab the biggest, most powerful splash-damaging weapon you can find. There's no real incentive to using the lightsabre unless you're in a duel.

 

Also, think about this:

 

In the current version of the game, assume we have classes of sorts. These classes may be self-imposed by the user's choice, but they end up being de facto classes nonetheless.

 

The classes are as follows:

 

- The Gunner:

 

The gunner can use any gun he wants. He runs at 100% speed and can boost this as high as 200%. He can jump, dodge, flip, etc. up to 8 times his height. He has access to all force powers, and can actually choose to max out most of his force powers if he chooses not to assign any points to sabre powers. He can kill you at long range or at close range.

 

- The Sabre user

 

The sabre user wields a lightsabre. He can run just as fast as the gunner, except that when he uses his primary attack on the gunner, he will slow down momentarily. He has limited range in his secondary attack. He has access to the same force powers as the gunner, except that his powers are not as strong, given that he's assigned force points to his lightsabre. While he may be deadly in close range, it is entirely possible in most situations for the gunner to stay out of range, run at the same speed as him (backwards even), and kill the sabre user.

 

Now, looking at those classes, which one would you pick if you wanted to win or at least avoid being killed as much?

 

To me, the choice is clear. Folks who want to win will play as gunners. Maybe they'll assign ONE force point to sabre offense, and maybe get to level 2 of sabre defense, so that they can deflect incoming shots a little, but mostly they'll just use their force speed 3 and force jump 3 to get out of a jam, and blast the enemy from afar.

 

Thus, it would appear that, given the current game "balance", the game encourages people to play as gunners, and offers no real advantages to sabre users. Obviously, if you played on a duel map, one on one, the sabre user would win because of the limited ability of the gunner to evade him. But on most open maps, it just makes more sense to use guns over sabres.

 

Yes, it's possible to beat a gun user if you're a sabre user. Yes, you can push back projectiles at a gun user, most of the time. I tried playing as a gunner today, and had my alt-fire repeater blasts pushed back at me. Know how I beat the guy? I jumped up in the air and shot them at him because I had force jump 3. Or I could've just run rings around him because I had force speed 3. Or I coul've used Grip 3 or Lightning 3 or Drain 3, followed by lightning or grip. You get the picture. Assuming you have even a halfway decent command of force powers, if you play as a gunner and don't assign any points to sabre powers, you can REALLY kick some ass. That needs to stop. SOMETHING needs to be done to make there be an incentive to play with a lightsabre beyond simply liking how it looks.

[Essobie]

Many readers on this forum are blinded by the fact that the words "Star Wars" reside on the JK2 box and don't look back at every other FPS that has a SP and a MP game.

 

I can't think of any FPS game in history that didn't have an escalation of weapon power as the SP missions went from early levels to later levels. JK2 is no different... you start with the worst weapon in the game, and you gradually obtain the better weapons in the game to deal with larger enemies and larger groups of enemies.

 

If you think that guns plain don't belong in MP JK2, then just stop reading and go play on your saber only servers. This post is for people who wish to play the ENTIRE multiplayer game, not just a small facet of it.

 

A well balanced MP experience will attempt to do one of two things with their weapon list, and sometimes both.

 

1) They will have most of all the weapons from the SP game included on each multiplayer map, and for the vast majority of time, there will be 1, 2, and sometimes 3 weapons that stand WAY ahead of the pack as far as dealing out the death to the rest of the players on the map.

 

Popular examples of this would be Doom2 and Quake 1... and Jedi Knight 1.

 

2) They will have most of all the weapons from the SP game included on each multiplayer map, and just about every weapon is obviously useful for a single purpose depending on the situation. No one weapon is "uber".

 

Popular examples of this would be Quake 3 and Half-Life (no, not CS... just HLDM).

 

In JK2's case, there's a bit more of #1 than there is #2.

 

I've read the majority of the posts above, and above all, it's the Heavy Repeater and the Flechette that have the most "whine factor". I don't think I saw much gripping about the Detpack, but I think it should be included in the "high kill per minute" list, simply from my own experiences in FFA.

 

I believe someone else touched on it previously, but I'll expand on it: the reason why these weapons are the most effective in MP JK2 is NOT because they are "uber" weapons, and not because they are "better" than the Light Saber. It is because the Light Saber makes these weapons an EXTREMELY USEFUL TOOL AT KILLING LARGE GROUPS OF PEOPLE QUICKLY.

 

Lets pretend the game does not have Light Sabers in it, and all there is is Force Powers and Guns. Are the Heavy Repeater, Flechette, and Detpack as good as they once were for getting you to the top of the scoreboard? Knee-jerk responce? Yes. After some thought? Maybe not.

 

Without the Lightsaber, there would not be a large number of Star Wars "purist" fans all bundled up in very small areas, swinging their sabers around like they are chicken sans heads.

 

Without the Lightsaber, the alt-fire on the E-11 would cut down EVERYONE, not just people without their sabers out. Add to that list the PRIMARY on the Heavy Repeater. No Saber = No Blocking. Alt-Fire on the Bryar PISTOL would be insane, and probably garner even more kills than the Disruptor because of it's charge up and the fact that you start with it when you spawn.

 

Now... let's pretend that we've been playing nothing but the no-saber version of JK2 for a month, and then put the Saber back in. You'd be trained to NOT use the Saber all the time. You'd be trained to keep moving at all times instead of standing about in the open waiting to get shot by all the weapons available.

 

THIS is the game that I'm playing right this second, and have been since the day JK2 came out. I NEVER, EVER get into a saber fight with someone in FFA. Why? Because it's just not smart given your surroundings. On an 8 player server, getting into a 1 on 1 fight with someone with a freekin MELEE weapon like the Saber will get you smeared all over the walls by the other 6 people on the server, assuming they aren't all fighting 1 on 1's by themselves (not likely).

 

I think what needs to happen for all the people screaming about how the weapons are unbalanced to have a serious wakeup call. Using the Saber all the time is what is making Heavy Repeater and Flechette kills so easy. You are using all your force power on Saber Throw, Grip, Absorb, and Lightning that you don't leave any left for Run, Pull, and Jump... all of which are REQUIRED to dodge the alt-fire from the previously mentioned weapons. Instead of gripping about how you can't take them on with a Light Saber, you SHOULD be learning how to play the game competitively (which means using the Saber very seldomly).

 

If you aren't "worried about competing" then you shouldn't worry about your lack of kills compared to players hitting the Fraglimit merely by taking advantage of your narrow minded vision of what this game should be. Just continue to play the game in your little idealistic Star Wars Universe where the Saber is uber, and let the rest of us play Jedi Knight 2... and win.

 

Essobie

[Caster]

I personally think that the guns are all around balanced against a full force user.

 

With most of the weapons that fire direct projects such as blasters or the bowcaster, the saber has no problems deflecting themwhat so ever. Heck, if anybody fires a laser at me I ALWAYS take my saber out.

 

When it comes to the explosive weapons, there's still so many ways to counter them:

 

Pull the weapon before they fire

Push the projectiles after they fire

Mind trick

Protection

Grip (Very useful, immobilizes them and when the they do the grabbing-at-neck-cause-they-cant-breath animation, they can't shoot)

Jump (Away)

Speed

 

The reasons the Jedis were so feared in the first place was because they were powerful warriors and that most weapons that the ordinary soldier used did not work.

 

What's the saying?

 

A light saber is the ultimate weapon for a master Jedi, but a person's own enemy if they are CLUMSY AND UNKNOWLEDGABLE in the ways of the Force.

 

The lightsaber is only one tool of a Jedi. They are not completely dependent on them.

 

-Caster

[GreyCloud]

why not just ask the server admins to disable some of the weapons? like the fc1 or repeater...

 

I personally use saber mostly but I have had times (in SP and MP) where I had to use a gun to bring down someone... I really don't see the problem.

[stellerwinds]

There are a lot of people here who just dont comprehend mods and team based multiplayer. That seems evident.

 

You can't except DM'ers to understand the inherant flaws in their style of game when its all they know and what they like.

 

Once the tools come out and some people put some serious thought to team based games these arguments wont matter.

 

Guns should never "litter" the map. That is the first rule of a good team based mod. It makes the first priority aquiring weapons instead of teamplay.

[Zodiac]

Originally posted by stellerwinds

 

A nice moronic statement disproved by 4 star wars movies, and soon to be 5.

 

"Luke, you only have a lightsaber, go sit on the sidelines while we deal with jaba. When vader comes then we will all let you fight him and we will watch."

yaaaa

 

Where exactly do your brains reside zodiac? Do they make sitting more comfortable?

 

The entire POINT of being a jedi is that you are able to use a saber to be just as effective and even more effective than gun users. Remember obi-wan called them clumbsy blasters...

 

I know the entire point of a Jedi is to be able to beat up a gunner with just your saber and the force. In the movies it's possible, but it's proven in JK1 AND in JK2 that such situations rarely occur. Just look at all the posts on this forum about saberists complaining they get beat up by this dishonourable gunner with a repeater or a rocket launcher and they cant do much about it.

 

The statement "guns and sabers just don't mix" is my conclusion of what I've read from those posts. And right now they just don't mix, be honest about that... in the movies they do, but this isn't the movie, this is the game. Most saberists don't like to go up against a gunner with a repeater/rocket launcher/flechette gun. They'd rather have him to fight with honor and take out his saber too, instead of getting killed while running towards him to slash him. Of course they'd like to go up against a gunner with just a stormtrooper rifle .. but thats just logic, a laser shot can be deflected, a missile can't.

 

And please leave out the personal insults, it doesn't benefit anyone on this forum. Plz go to another forum if you'd like to start fights.

 

Hitogeki, you are completely right and I'm wrong. Like you said: Raven's not working on dividing guns from sabers, they're probably working on a modifier which'd put force-saberists against no force gunners. That might balance things. Not sure if it will, but it might

[Solo4114]

1.) I wouldn't get too excited about the SDK coming out soon. RTCW uses the same engine, and those of us who play that have been waiting for around 6 months. The problem is it's not Raven's SDK. It's not even Lucasarts' or Activision's. It's Id Software's for Q3A. So we may be waiting for a little while.

 

2.) Essobie, I think the point is to balance the game such that NO weapon can dominate. The sabre shouldn't and doesn't dominate, but a sabre user SHOULD be able to hold its own against folks who use other weapons. Currently a sabre user can't hold his own, due to the other force powers available to gun wielders. In fact, your post only prooves my point. At the present time, this game actually encourages you NOT to use a sabre, despite the game being called Jedi Knight II, and featuring the Force and Sabres rather, shall we say, prominently in the Single player game. Essentially, I think the class based system I proposed or something like it would achieve this purpose in team games.

 

In straight deathmatch, you could have people pick to specialize in certain weapons or skills, or simply restrict gun users' speed and force power usage.

 

Ultimately, what those of us who complain about the current imbalance in the game want is a BALANCE. We don't WANT there to be an uber weapon. We don't want the Sabre to be the ULTIMATE WEAPON THAT CAN KILL ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. We just want a sabre to be able to hold its own against the other weapons and weapon users.

[Zodiac]

Originally posted by Solo4114

2.)The sabre shouldn't and doesn't dominate, but a sabre user SHOULD be able to hold its own against folks who use other weapons. Currently a sabre user can't hold his own, due to the other force powers available to gun wielders.

 

well said. Let's just wait and see how this game will change for the better.

[Sartis]

Boy In A Wheelchair,

 

Took your advice went into a few 8 player games today and used guns only, guess what. Same result, guns are unbalanced to hell, this isn't about making sabers more powerful than guns its about making it so a 'JEDI' can stand they're own vs a Gunner, not absolutely knowing the gunner will win like it is now.

 

Also I would appreciate it if you keep your 'insults' to yourself I stated I was willing to give gunners a chance so I tried it out for myself found out what ever person knows but some won't admit Guns are unbalanced. I didn't go out and insult anybody using a gun, I stated they don't need as much skill as people claim they need, and pointed out that also they're defenses to the claim is that people just don't have the skill to beat them because they are so skilled is false.

 

There are skilled gunners out there don't get me wrong I've met a few, but the rest of the 99% of gunners really don't have any skill, its all look in the direction of movement fire your fletchette/repeater then brag as 3 frags come your way.

 

Also if you plan on saying 'well the 8 player games you played must have had sucky players in them' I moved from 4 different servers today to test your defense. I also tried 3 4 man games and still came out on top on all 5 matches with maybe 1-2 deaths per match.

 

I don't think anybody here is saying that gunners shouldn't be in the game or that gun's shouldn't, we are just saying that it should be more balanced and that a saberist SHOULD have a chance to stand they're own against a gunner. And for those that used JK1 as an example of how gunners owned Saberists, in the days before every gunner had absorb Saberists could easily stand they're own vs a gunner any day.

 

Anyways lets have some constructive replies on this thread, enough of the insulting each other. It's easier to throw out insults that to look at the other persons point of view.

[Zodiac]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

The point is in FFA you have every weapon at your disposal. There shouldn't be people running around only using Sabers, if they want sabers, they can play sabers only. Sabers do have advantage over other weapons in certain situations. But the saber is just another weapon in multiplayer, the saber isn't weak, far from it, its just you have to pick the moment to use it. I am completely against changing the balance of the weapons and force powers, since I don't really see a problem, except that saberists are too damn stubborn to use a gun once in a while.

 

this is a great post. very true.

[Sartis]

Well other than the fact, look at JK1. It was meant so saber and guns would both have an equal chance at each other, thats part of the JK legacy, and thats what I'm sure the developers tried here, they missed a few things but that can be fixed with patches.

 

All you people saying that sabers are just another weapon, your right, BUT it is the weapon this game is built around, it is what makes this game popular, it is the lifeline of the game. Like I said before 80-90% of people on the Patch Thread want guns vs sabers balanced, that sure tells me there is a majority wanting the saber, not the guns.

 

You might want to get used to the idea of stuff getting an overhaul, Ravensoft I'm sure will do the right thing and patch and balance etc.

 

If you want guns, go back to quake3/UT/Halflife/RTCW if you can't stand saberists wanting abit of fair play. I mean really, the game is called Jedi Knight, not 'Star Wars Arena' wich apparently alot of you think it is.

 

I don't mind people using guns, I do mind people telling others that want balance and to be able to use the lightsaber in FFA games and still be able to do well to go find another game.

 

Guns aren't balanced, things may be changed so they are. Get used to the idea.

[Goumindong]

Look, this has gotten to the point that i find it utterly disgusting and disturbing. If you join an FFA game, or a CTF/Y game, be prepared to have people shoot at you, and be prepared to have them shoot at you effectivly. Be prepared to die, be prepared to get gripped, be prepared to get drained, be prepared to get pushed and pulled and schorched. Be prepared for people running past you at lightning speed, be prepared for people taking no damage while attacking fast and glowing red, be prepared for people spamming weapons, be prepared for lightsabers, be prepared for automated sentry guns, be prepared for seeker driods. Just be prepared to see it, because you will.

 

I dont usualy play FFA, i prefer team FFA or CTF, but ya know what i find most fun about it? working against the many obstacles alligned against me, will i come out on top if im alone against a gunner and a saberist? no probably not, but it doesnt mean i wont try and use every tactic available to me to stop them both. Ill deploy a seeker and push them when the bolt is coming so they cant deflect it, ill pull their weapon out of their hands, or push their projectiles back at them, hell, ill even pull out my E-11 blaster rifle and hurl a few hunder bolts at them, its only the most effective weapon against a gunner who is far away.

 

If some guy consistantly kills me with the alt-fire repeater, then he is better than me for it, because not only can i use the repeater, or the rocket launcher, or the flak cannon, or the blaster rifle, or mines and thermal detonators, or a lightsaber, i can pull the weapon out of his hands, i can push him down, i can even run. The one thing in this game that i really cant get past, is force speed on flag runs, mainly because i dont like using force speed, but does that give me the right to complain about it, maybe speed and absorb should be outlawed for flag carriers, and maybe they shouldnt be able to shoot, or wield a lightsaber, simply so i can kill them easier. If somone kills me with a gun, an i cant kill him with my saber, i will change to a gun to kill him, if somone kills me with a saber and i cant kill him with a saber, will change to a gun, if i cant do it with a gun ill change to a saber, if not that then ill use explosives and tricks. If i can do it(i happen to be the second most stubborn man in the world), then so can you.

 

This game is about options, there are so many options that you can use to get by people, and kill people that it boggles my mind how anyone can complain. If you dont have a lightsaber out, its really hard to deflect blaster bolts (you can push them, but why? oh, that and its a pain), so someone who has a gun out is blaster fodder, or bowcaster fodder.

 

So, in closing, if dont like playing with people that will shoot at you, then go play in a saber only server, and leave the other servers to us people who want to challenge ourselves with a game that takes alot of skill with varying(sp?) tactics and stratagies.

 

*Shamelessly borrowed from Penny Acrade.

 

Goumindong out.

[Chewie Bakker]

Man, has this thread gained a lot of posts! I posted my last one in here a little over 12 hours ago!

 

It's good to see everybody posting their opinion, with minimal insults too.

 

First of all: Stormhammer: Yes! 56k-dom is painful! I can't play over the web anymore because I get freaked out by the lagging. "You have been killed by x" D'oh! Not even in duel!

 

 

There have been some good points here, and I think in MP you have to see the lightsaber as just another weapon, and abides by the same Rock, Paper, Scissors rule. Even in SP this was proven by the Rodians and their disruptors. One snipe-shot and I'm disintegrated! It's enough to make you chew your own foot off!

 

 

The lightsaber has a disadvantage against most splash-damage weapons, but really good against others. As Stormhammer of the Galactic Plumberman Alliance said:

 

I can sympathise with some of those who don't like the heavier weapons, like the Flechette, and the new Heavy Repeater, and the Missile Launcher. The key problem for saberists with these weapons is the splash damage...the gunner does not have to get a direct hit to kill you.

 

I know that rockets and thermal detonators can be deflected by Force Push, and I think I've seen Heavy Repeater ALT-fire deflected too.

 

I think what most people are grumpy at, is that a Jedi doesn't use guns because they dedicate their whole lives to mastering/understanding the Force and training with the symbolic lightsaber, and don't have time to learn marksmanship. Besides, the Jedi don't use guns because they're offensive weaponry, and the Sith don't because they consider hiding behind blasters cowardly (yet they love their bombs - I've read). Who'd want to be shooting at someone when you can fry them with lightning?

 

 

Maybe their should be a class of "Jedi Marksmen" who can use the Force to some degree, but not have access to all of the Jedi Powers, and be able to use guns, while the "True Jedi" Give up all guns except for Thermal Detonators or something along those lines....

 

[Lucky]

This game was built around the stun baton. I demand that the stun baton be balanced! damnit! Many a times have I been trying to have a stun baton duel with someone in multi player, all of a sudden to be shot by some idiot gunner spamming alt fire and draining me and pushing me and gripping me and doing various other things to me that the game allows.

 

I think we should take all of these things out, or simply drastically tone them down so that they're completely a waste of time, so that I can use my stun baton more effectively. I mean come on, what would you rather use? some kind of complicated and intricate weapon line up, or a stun baton?

 

Come on people! The stun baton is where its at. I can't take the gun *****s shooting me, or the people who were smart enough to hotkey force powers, or the guys who won't roll play billy dee williams and keep using force. Or the guys who use luke skywalker and use darksideomgihatethatimaswgeek.

 

Raven, please make the stun baton able to counteract every other weapon, because I like it. I don't care that you spent time and effort creating a really interesting and diverse weapon balance, I want to be able to use my stun baton all the time.

 

Now it doesn't have to be the *greatest* weapon in the game, however I should be able to pick the stun baton up after 2 weeks of play and beat everyone who feels the need to use another weapon. Despite the fact that they might have had a ton of experience with other FPS's that have those nasty guns, I want the stun baton to equate all their years of experience with my 2 weeks of playing so that I never have to use another weapon and they will feel stoopid for picking up a weapon thats *not* the stun baton.

 

 

If you don't do this, I'm going to break my CD over my knee, tell my friends I hate the game, troll the forums, continue to play the game and b!tch at people who don't like the stun baton as much as me, and generally just keep demanding that you make the stun baton able to counteract EVERY SINGLE OTHER WEAPON IN THE GAME.

 

Feh. Fookin idiots.

 

 

Lucky

[Essobie]

Originally posted by Sartis

Well other than the fact, look at JK1. It was meant so saber and guns would both have an equal chance at each other, thats part of the JK legacy, and thats what I'm sure the developers tried here, they missed a few things but that can be fixed with patches.

 

I actually DID take a look at JK1 in my post... and it's listed in the category of there being one or two uber weapons. What I didn't do is apparently disagree with the mass majority of the JK1 old schoolers by saying that the saber was absolute POO-POO in JK1... that game was solely about the Concussion Rifle, which obviously is NOT the Light Saber. In fact, I'd list the Light Saber down at the bottom of the list of most useful weapons in JK1 simply because the Peer to Peer network model made using the Saber a nice bit of Russian Roulette.

 

With the Concussion Rifle you just had to lead your target a tiny bit and you'd deliver tons of damage.

 

And remember, I'm talking about FFA play here, not one on one (where Absorb was king).

 

Essobie

[Essobie]

Originally posted by Solo4114

2.) Essobie, I think the point is to balance the game such that NO weapon can dominate. The sabre shouldn't and doesn't dominate, but a sabre user SHOULD be able to hold its own against folks who use other weapons. Currently a sabre user can't hold his own, due to the other force powers available to gun wielders. In fact, your post only prooves my point. At the present time, this game actually encourages you NOT to use a sabre, despite the game being called Jedi Knight II, and featuring the Force and Sabres rather, shall we say, prominently in the Single player game.....

 

The Saber doesn't hold it's own in the hands of people who insist on staying in the same place waving it around, running after others doing the same thing. It basically is like having those little lightsticks you those guys on aircraft carriers that are directing planes in the air... you just draw attention to yourself waving that thing around so that someone that's bothered to go get a nice, powerful RANGED weapon can come and take you and the guy you are fighting right out of the game.

 

The Saber DOES hold it's own if you specificially bring it out to avoid losing a weapon you have to Pull. It DOES hold it's own if you use it to block incoming fire while you run to get other weapons. It DOES hold it's own if you don't waste all your force power on THROWING it uselessly at people shooting Heavy Repeater Alt-Fire at you at close range.

 

And OMG stop with the "Jedi Knight centers around the use of the Force and a Light Saber" because obviously it does not. Yes, they are in the game, but they are not ALL of the game. They are merely a tool to help you kill faster than just guns.

 

Here's some tips:

 

- Do not take a weapon user on with a light saber unless 1) he's not a good shot, 2) he's got nothing but a blaster pistol, 3) he's the master of Force Pull and you have nothing else BUT the Light Saber to kill him.

 

- Do not stick around to get frustrated by the fact that someone with a Heavy Repeater is going to smear you about the floor because he's going nuts with the alt-fire. Turn on Force Run, and... well, RUN. You might attempt to try a Force Pull, but if it doesn't work the first try, hightail it out of there.

 

- Do not sit in one place. Ever. This, as stated in my first post, includes NOT FIGHTING ALONE WITH ONE OR TWO PEOPLE WITH YOUR LIGHTSABER OUT IN THE OPEN. This is the same as standing completely still, as even though you are moving around quite a bit, you are moving around in roughly the same area, and you are not concintrating on incoming fire... you are concentrating on slicing up your Saber wielding opponent. You should ALWAYS be concerned about getting SHOT.

 

The "S" in FPS stands for SHOOTER. The shooter is who you should be avoiding the entire time you play.

 

Essobie

[Solo4114]

Essobie,

 

Once again, you only serve to prove my point. Essentially, you're saying that people should use a lightsabre the following way:

 

1.) they should NOT use a lightsabre against anything heavier than a bowcaster.

 

2.) They should only switch to it to avoid having their weapon pulled from their hands, and should avoid any fights with folks using heavy weapons.

 

So, let's apply this information to the typical MP scenario where everyone and his mother is running around toting a missile launcher, flechette cannon, or repeater. What's a sabreist to do? Try to pull the weapon out of their hands (which even with Pull 3, doesn't seem to work that often for me because their force pool is as full as mine usually, so they can resist it), or run like hell.

 

Like I said, this proves my point. Most of the time in MP, a sabreist can NOT hold his own against a heavy weapon user. Again, this is because the heavy weapon user has the same access to force powers, if not higher access by virtue of his eschewing sabre powers.

 

As for not standing still in one place, I DON'T stand still in one place. I roll, run, jump, etc. all to try and get in close to the other guy so I can slash him with my sabre. You know what he does? He backs up. He turns on force speed, or he jumps away from me, and then continues to blast me with the gun. Like I said, you've proven my point most effectively. A sabre user cannot withstand the assault of a heavy repeater or flechette cannon user. Yes, you can occasionally push the bolts back. When I played as a gunner, I had a guy do that to me. Know what I did? I jumped and shot him. Even if he pushed the bolts back at me, I'd be falling by the time he did, so they'd never hit me. Then it's just a question of how much force power does he have left, and how much ammo do I have left. If I've got more ammo than he does force power, he's screwed unless he runs.

 

This is the problem I'm talking about. This game actively discourages the use of the lightsabre currently, and that's going to lead to the game dying. Honestly, how many gun users out there will stick with this game when SOF2 or some other gun game comes out? And how many sabre users will have been turned off to the game by then because of lousy sabre mechanics and a lack of balance in the game? I don't want guns themselves nerfed. I just want to see this game survive. It seems like that's only going to happen, though, if they make it so that a sabreist can hold his own against a repeater toting player.

 

Someone else described this game accurately. Right now, it's Star Wars Arena. Well guess what. That's gonna get REALLY boring after a while, because it's not like we don't have about a billion OTHER arena games with more maps, and more mods and such to play with. Hell, I expect a lot of people will just go back to Q3A after a while.

 

And OMG, you're right. This game is not all about the sabres. But sabres and force powers ARE what make this game distinctly different from other games. Take that aspect away and you've got just another FPS game with weapons that honestly aren't that interesting. People WILL leave this game and will leave it quickly unless something's done. I don't see this game lasting much past the 6 month mark if nothing's done to improve the MP gameplay. Sure some folks will play it. But the audience won't be anywhere near as wide as it could be if the game was tweaked some. Right now you've got a built in fan base for this game. Take away the very thing that makes the game distinct from other similar FPS games, and you'll lose that fan base.

[Sartis]

Well I'm done arguing about this, really we have seen a supposed email from Ravensoft tossing around ideas of balancing making 2 classes, Gunners, Jedi. There is not much point in talking about this anymore since it appears Ravensoft knows what the majority want and expect from them.

 

Fact of the matter is if nothing changes, the game will last a little longer then die off for the next FPS to come out. If they do change things the game could last and be as popular as any FPS on the market today. Right now there is nothing to seperate this from the other FPS's out there except the Lightsaber/Force abilities, wich this game was built on. Sure in SP you got killed by the sniper rifle thats fine its a sniper rifle for a reason, but personally I can';t remember anything else that I was taken out by that I didn't have to use a saber for other than the AT ST's. So nobody is saying make 'Jedi' invincible, they are saying make it so they can stand they're ground and have a chance, rather than just say 'switch to a gun duh you loser' really look around and see how many people play this game for the sabers, they outnumber the people who play it for the guns by alot.

 

Closing statement is, if that email is true Ravensoft is looking to balance the sabers vs guns end of story, if it happens it happens. We can argue about this until they patch, or we can just shutup and wait till it happens. For me I'm done argueing since neither side will see what the other is saying.

[Taicat]

This is an interesting thread. I'm a 'saberist', I've played on 'guns-enabled' servers and got neutered. Even after ditching the saber, and going weapons-only.

 

Mind you, I'm good with HL, Q3A, and UT. Still, I suck in JO, as far as gunZ go.

 

Since I got this game because of the Saber, I decided to just play on saber-only servers. Wasn't that hard of a decision, and I'm happy for it.

 

 

Originally posted by Hitogeki

Oh yeah and btw, You find a good pinging saber only server and tell us. Cause where I am NY, USA on a cable modem that gets amazing speeds for what it is, I have only found 1 saber only server (other than duel) which btw has now gone down since I played on it.

 

Hitogeki, I play on these:

 

GhettoLan FFA Saber Only Jedi Master 216.47.129.134:28070

Pure Gamer Saber Only FFA 65.117.185.28:28070

Planet Jurai Sabers only 129.3.142.39:28070

JAM SOUTH 2 129.250.240.162:28070

 

I'm in the Bronx, NY on DSL, and average between 50-80ms to these.....hope to see you on sometime!

[Essobie]

Originally posted by Solo4114

Essobie,

 

Once again, you only serve to prove my point. Essentially, you're saying that people should use a lightsabre the following way:

 

1.) they should NOT use a lightsabre against anything heavier than a bowcaster.

 

2.) They should only switch to it to avoid having their weapon pulled from their hands, and should avoid any fights with folks using heavy weapons.

 

 

If this is your point, then yeah... we are in total agreement. I think the problem is, you think it should be changed so you CAN use a lightsaber against heavy weapons, and I don't.

 

I think bumping into other player models with a lightsaber is MUCH more boring than shooting stuff.

 

What people should do after they "avoid any fights with folks using heavy weapons" is go and find their OWN heavy weapon... but that would mean they'd have to play outside of their narrow little honor code or some such.

 

Maybe it is just that I'm a fan of the FPS genre, and I don't see a need in castrating the power of ranged weapons just because a few high profile movies made a freeking SWORD look cooler than they actually are in practice.

 

I don't think you can "balance" all the weapons with the saber effectively. If you take force away from people who play with guns, you basically make it impossible for them to compete simply because they won't have Force Run and Jump.

 

I think I'm with Sartis insofar as not argueing about it anymore. I think after reading this thread anyone can see that Saber's aren't as efficient and effective as most of the guns at actually getting kills... they'll have to decide for themselves whether they think this is a good thing or not on their own.

 

Essobie

[sunsetrider]

well to use the guns effectively it has to be in first person perspective and in that mode the force powers generally are not that useful, or at least to me. Flechette guns I have used to fend off charging sabrists, and in a foray that is often common in FFA, just lobbing a few alt fires from the Flechette gun is a good idea to carve a nice path for yourself.

 

I like using guns in MP, I think they are well balanced, and it is not as if the guns are balanced against lightsabre only, they are balanced against each other.