FWH Lasker Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 In the beginning days on the MP severs, saber fighting was a matter of skill and a joy to engage in. Finally, battles against an evenly matched adversary lasted minutes (not seconds ala Quake) and by God I wanted nothing more than to thank my opponent for such an awesome fight. He may have lost, but he gained my respect. This is what combat should be all about. I found I came to enjoy my battles against certain opponents because I knew, win or lose, they would be extremely enjoyable and fulfilling. Wits, tactics, and skill finally meant something in a game! Raven Software had done it. Sadly though, I have seen the slow degradation of saber fighting skill as more and more people adopt the heavy stance in MP combat. The Quake attitude of one-hit kill and instantaneous gratification has found its way into what was once enjoyable skill based combat. The weakness in heavy stance is supposed to be leaving youself open for attack. The problem however, is that this weakness never truly materializes in MP combat. Because an opponent has the ability to run backwards (or any direction) as fast as I can run forwards, engaging him during his "open" moments is all but impossible. The heavy stance user simply employs the following "tactic". Run forward, jump, attack. If he hits - he kills. Period. To me, that's utter crap. If he misses, he simply backs up and cannot be overtaken and engaged. Rinse, repeat. Eventually, after repeating this 20 or 30 times, every opponent will lag or make a mistake and the heavy stance user will get his one hit kill. I truly hope this is not how the authors of this game intended this game to be played. The beauty JKII's saber combat was that it took a series of mistakes to kill you - not just one. Such combat caused me to walk away from the a hard fought battle respecting and appreciating my opponent. Heavy stance users earns nothing but disgust and battles become meaningless. It then becomes time to find another game. I log into the servers now and more and more all I see are heavy stance users hopping around like demented bunnies. Not my idea of skillful saber combat. I make an impassioned plea to Raven Software - please please restore saber combat to the artform it once was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heretk Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 Yes, there are some good perks to using the strong style. But for me, I do not see it as the ultimate that you seem to claim. It is just way too slow (though you can compensate with Speed or Dark Rage). If I am dueling a player who favors that style, I see it as a challenge. Based on my current strategy, the medium style seems to work best. If you are worried about opponents running away from you, try Pull, it works great for keeping the heat on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sartori Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 one hit SHOULD be deadlym these are light sabers if i drag even the smallest millimeter of it across your stomach your intestines should spill on to the floor. the problem is 2 things MP sabre combat suck when compared to SP (play realisiticcombat 3 for a while you'll see ) and that strong stance it the only one that even remotly reflects the leathality of the weapon. when you raise your sabre for that killing stroke in strong i should be able to step in and open your belly with a quick horizontal (if the distance is right) in fast, but unfortunatly thats not how it works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCrusher Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 Lasker, I agree, the balance for Non Force Dueling is off and needs to be adjusted. My suggestion has been to use the force defense spec points to add proper blocking and parries to the blue-stance. To make High-Defense-Blue-Stance the counter to the seldom blockable red-stance. The parry would allow a momentary stun of the red stance attacker opening him up for a counter attack. A properly parried red-stance-special-attack could leave the attacker flat on his backside for a moment. Maybe the parry could happen only when stationary and facing the attacker... kind of a auto parry. Maybe crouching and stationary will add a greater arc to the sphere of the parry's defense. But your right the game starts to feel like Jedi-Quake IV with all the silly one hit luck kills. And yes the sabre SHOULD be deadly. But in keeping with the Star War theme a Jedi will rarely if ever be struck by one. When he is struck by a sabre then the battle usually ends. Defense is what keeps a Jedi alive in the Star Wars Universe. And, this sort of Defense would also help balance the sabre dueling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S!TH!NAT0R Posted April 14, 2002 Share Posted April 14, 2002 I think it would be pretty cool if other players would adopt 'same saber-style' code of honor when Dueling. Just an idea;) -Go see my thread entitled..."JK][ unwritten Code of Honor/Player respect!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cistern Posted April 16, 2002 Share Posted April 16, 2002 heh. i just posted when i saw this thread. here's where i wrote my opinion about the system: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=469358#post469358 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frizbee Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 As I mentioned in another post, an interesting way of doing Saber combat, would be to have an offensive and defensive button. The Attack key makes your character, (Speed of attack, and skill of attack dependent on what level Offence the player has selected) attack in the best possible way according to how the enemy is positioned. (Ie they will try to get the saber to hit them, whether that person is running, slashing, defending, standing behind you.. eating.. whatever) The defence button would make your character defend against any attacks (again, depending on the level of defence the player has, how effective those blocks are) Now, I'd like to add to this, the three stances. Heavy Stance would put alot of power into their blows, forcing an opponents lightsaber down or away, but would also leave that person open for an attack, if their blow was blocked successfully or dodged. Quick attacks and defence would be very light blows, glancing off the others lightsaber if blocked, but letting that person swing again very quickly. Meaning that the opponent would need a good defence skill and timing. Medium stance would of course be a balance between the two. Each of these stances would have their own moves, (Ie. types of swings etc) to take into account what stance you are using, but one hit would kill... period. Now as it is currently, (I admit) it may not be practical, and not everyone would like it, but it would make saber combat more like in the movies, and less of a "Hit and miss" affair like MP currently. Another interesting idea, would be if Jedi could ONLY use a lightsaber (As in the movies this seems to be the only weapon they use... the exception being Luke, who lets face it, wasn't a full Jedi Knight until the end of the trilogy) And to balance that, those who use guns, don't have a light saber, and can't use the force. Then, make it so that the Force (namely pull and push) only have say... 1 second pause after each use before you can do it again, and that would make pushing rockets etc away alot easier. You could even have it that Force push and pull doesn't work on a Jedi unless they are mid-attack or jumping... ie not ready to counter. It would make for some interesting battles, even with the current Saber technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Losealot Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by FWH Lasker The weakness in heavy stance is supposed to be leaving youself open for attack. The problem however, is that this weakness never truly materializes in MP combat. Because an opponent has the ability to run backwards (or any direction) as fast as I can run forwards, engaging him during his "open" moments is all but impossible. The heavy stance user simply employs the following "tactic". Run forward, jump, attack. If he hits - he kills. Period. To me, that's utter crap. If he misses, he simply backs up and cannot be overtaken and engaged. Rinse, repeat. Eventually, after repeating this 20 or 30 times, every opponent will lag or make a mistake and the heavy stance user will get his one hit kill. I agree with you on that one. There is another frustrating problem (bug?). I don't mind somebody using "1 hit 1 kill" leap in heavy stance if it means that he will become really vulnerable for a couple of second. But that is not a fact. The problem with it is that after he swings, his saber (half merged into the ground) will kill you anyway, if you get close. That completely nullifies those valuable couple of second when you have a chance to counter attack with medium or light stance. I play on server with 20-30ms latency, so the lag is not a reason. It's probably a bug in game. I can reproduce it anytime I want: opponent attacks with heavy leap, finishes it, his saber is in the ground, I counter attack and die because the game counts his saber (in the ground) as if he was still doing heavy leap and hit me over the head. Frustrating. I hope it will be fixed in the patch. I will make another tread with the hope Raven will check it out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBJedi Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 On a good day I can pretty much kill anyone with any particular stance and any particular weapon they may be carrying. You need to develop your skill in adapting to different formats of gameplay instead of sticking to one particular style and excepting the game maker to help you out - because you are stuck in a method, which for others tends to be repetitive and boring. I've encountered many different styles of offense that I must learn to defend against - and the more difficult the offense, the more challenging and intriguing the gameplay becomes. Unfortunately, this game is already developing 'veteran mindsets' in some people - even after being out for a short time - who will start complaining about any supposed newbies who can kill them. Don't listen to them Lucas and Raven - just keep making the game as wonderfully as you have and work on bugs, cheats, etc. If people need gameplay changes they can learn to program and mod - or create a mod team who can make those changes. Bugs, cheats, and technical issues are one thing to fix - but I strongly suggest the dev team avoid changing any gameplay at this point - just support any mod makers efforts in doing so. People complain about all sorts of things with Tribes and Quake when it comes to new people coming in and taking over the server with different styles of play. The key to that is administration - and other players learning to vote kick or simply adapt - that's where it's useful to have 'team only vote kick - so that the entire server isn't required to kick someone on a team game'. To my fellow players - quit your whining and enjoy the game. If you come across gameplay challenges (that you happen to notice other people not having a problem with) adapt, mod, or move on. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Losealot Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by NewBJedi On a good day I can pretty much kill anyone with any particular stance and any particular weapon they may be carrying. After reading JK2 forums for some time now, it looks to me, that there is a bigger number of scoreboard leaders/winners than the number of running servers. Definitely, that must be a trick of the Force. You need to develop your skill in adapting to different formats of gameplay instead of sticking to one particular style and excepting the game maker to help you out - because you are stuck in a method, which for others tends to be repetitive and boring.[/b] Agreed. Tell it to those who use only heavy stance, 1 hit attack and take advantage of numerous bugs related to it. But I doubt you will succeed. It's becoming more and more obvious that using that only method is enough to be a scoreboard leader. And no, the game maker didn't help out by creating a situation where variety and finesse is killed by repetition aided by bugs. I've encountered many different styles of offense that I must learn to defend against - and the more difficult the offense, the more challenging and intriguing the gameplay becomes.[/b] The original poster is talking about saber fights and its deterioration to only one option. Are you sure that you are talking about the same thing as him? Unfortunately, this game is already developing 'veteran mindsets' in some people - even after being out for a short time - who will start complaining about any supposed newbies who can kill them.[/b] Why unfortunately? People play this game a lot and gain experience. Then they come here and share their observations. What's wrong with it? And the part about complaining about newbie killers is just your speculation, right? Don't listen to them Lucas and Raven - just keep making the game as wonderfully as you have and work on bugs, cheats, etc.[/b] Yes, Lucas and Raven don't listen to them. You are just a bunch of zombies, with no free will and discrimination. But don't worry. You have always me, NewBJedi who will save you from your horrific fate of being brain dead. (sarcasm) If people need gameplay changes they can learn to program and mod - or create a mod team who can make those changes. Bugs, cheats, and technical issues are one thing to fix - but I strongly suggest the dev team avoid changing any gameplay at this point - just support any mod makers efforts in doing so.[/b] Some major things like game imbalances require immediate intervention of game creator. We gather here to discuss what those imbalances and problems are. Creating the mod will take more time and will not reach as many people as "obligatory" patch. Nobody is saying that Raven should make a patch which will create new problems and imbalances. But this is exactly what you assume. Game patch is meant to improve game play and not to decrease it. So, let them (Raven) consider the feedback from all the players (including your good self) and decide what to do. To my fellow players - quit your whining and enjoy the game. If you come across gameplay challenges (that you happen to notice other people not having a problem with) adapt, mod, or move on.[/b] We humbly request you to allow us to whine a little bit. Perhaps it can help the game to become even better. Otherwise we will "move on" ... to another game. And you will sit alone in your room, playing with yourself. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D66 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Yes, To NewBJedi you listen Save you it can Tribes2, remember the failure at tribes 2 Raven, Don't give in to Game play Patches, That leads to the darkside! Mind what you have learned, save you it can! Told you did I, Reckless is this community. Now, matters are worse. This game is our last hope No there is another...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Losealot Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by D66 Yes, To NewBJedi you listen Save you it can Tribes2, remember the failure at tribes 2 Raven, Don't give in to Game play Patches, That leads to the darkside! Mind what you have learned, save you it can! Told you did I, Reckless is this community. Now, matters are worse. This game is our last hope No there is another...... This message board is becoming more and more prophetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBJedi Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by Sir Losealot This message board is becoming more and more prophetic. Interestingly, the death of Tribes 2 was due to a lot of gameplay patches and not a 100% focus on technical issues - which I believe he's implying - hence agreeing with me. FYI - I'm not responding to your other post because you launched a personal attack. Once a person lowers to a level of such things it's a waste of my time. Have a nice day. P.S. You are pretty much wrong on every count. Example: CS is an HL mod: Half Life 19997 servers, 52068 players <=== Medal of Honor Allied Assault 707 servers, 4451 players Return to Castle Wolfenstein 1121 servers, 4015 players Quake 3: Arena 2877 servers, 3836 players <=== Unreal Tournament 3374 servers, 3560 players <=== Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast 602 servers, 2378 players Tribes 2 606 servers, 2352 players Starsiege TRIBES 420 servers, 1165 players Quake II 999 servers, 865 players Rogue Spear 124 servers, 495 players http://www.gamespy.com/stats/ Top Mods For Half Life By Players Counter-strike 16920 servers, 60519 players <=== Team Fortress Classic 1457 servers, 4752 players Day of Defeat 963 servers, 3880 players Deathmatch 469 servers, 880 players Firearms 122 servers, 389 players Action Half-Life 84 servers, 110 players Vampire Slayer 17 servers, 97 players wantedhl 8 servers, 73 players Half-Life: Opposing Force 44 servers, 68 players AG 76 servers, 67 players http://www.gamespy.com/stats/mods.asp?id=15&s=2 Let's check out Quake 3: Top Mods For Quake 3: Arena By Players Orange Smoothie 729 servers, 903 players <=== Rocket Arena 3 325 servers, 845 players <=== Urban Terror 305 servers, 796 players <=== Deathmatch 359 servers, 695 players Capture The Flag 159 servers, 478 players Freeze Tag 87 servers, 240 players Excessive 76 servers, 157 players Challenge Promode Arena 123 servers, 138 players Threewave 74 servers, 131 players Team Deathmatch 54 servers, 131 players And UT: Top Mods For Unreal Tournament By Players Tactical Ops 485 servers, 2028 players <=== Capture the Flag 1054 servers, 1920 players Tournament Deathmatch 1048 servers, 1176 players Team Game Plus 313 servers, 471 players Strike Force Team DM 98 servers, 262 players Assault 86 servers, 121 players LastManStanding 85 servers, 85 players Domination 67 servers, 43 players Infiltration: Team Plus 30 servers, 42 players Rocket Arena 22 servers, 39 players http://www.gamespy.com/stats/mods.asp?id=35&s=1 Mods are the way a community grows, with "technical" and "NOT gameplay" patches by the dev team. No need to thank me. We all learn something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Losealot Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by NewBJedi P.S. You are pretty much wrong on every count. You win, I lose. Let it be so. Sorry, if I hurt your feelings before. I have a sharp tonque sometimes. Have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBJedi Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Wow, thanks. That's a very decent response on your part. G.D. - Good debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWH Lasker Posted April 19, 2002 Author Share Posted April 19, 2002 Sir Losealot's points are extremely valid ones Newb. Each stance should have an equal ability to be successful. What stance you choose to play should be a person choice based on how you like to play. Are you a defensive player who likes to block, block, block, then go in and counter attack (light stance)? Or are you a completely offensive player who throws caution to the wind and attempts to destroy his enemy in one hit (heavy stance)? Raven Software did a great thing by giving users the choice of saber styles based on personality. Each *should* have an equal chance of success. Emphirical evidence shows that this is not true as spectating on the server leaders reveals they are all heavy stance users. My entire point is that the weakness they attempted to program in for heavy stance users did not successfully materialize. A heavy stance user is *supposed* to be open for a duration of time so that counter attack is possible. A heavy stance user who misses his attack should pay dearly for throwing caution to the wind and attempting to win in one hit. This does not happen. The duration of time he is "open" is much too short. Combined with the ability to retreat as fast as one can persue, and you have definite problem as evidenced by the fact that the majority of server leaders are heavy stance users. I don't want to have to succumb to becoming another demented bunny hopper of death because it's the only demonstrated way to win. Each style should be able to win, not just one. I don't want Raven to change their software to appease whiners. I want Raven to deliver the stated functionality they promised in their software - namely sufficient open moments on heavy stance users for counter attack to be viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Losealot Posted April 19, 2002 Share Posted April 19, 2002 FWH Lasker, you pretty hit the head of the nail. More and more people are coming out from the initial game's charm and start to look into details. It's interesting, if not entertaining to read some of the comments related to JK2 perception. Before it was 10 point score, now it's a "crap" score". Look up this thread for some interesting reading about saber fights: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42440 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBJedi Posted April 19, 2002 Share Posted April 19, 2002 I see your point. A simple block with lightsaber function/keybind would do the trick. Yes or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCrusher Posted April 19, 2002 Share Posted April 19, 2002 Well said Lasker, I've been playing the JO control system for some years now in the form of Heretic 2 - almost the same thing but without the stances. The heavy-stance-special has an equivalent attack called the downward stab. The downward stab is very difficult to hit with and very easy to evade. This was probably Ravens intention. Auto block is in H2 as well, but it blocks everything and stuns the attacker when a block is successful. This is an excellent system for experienced fighters who want to a stop newbie-button-mashers from turning a duel into a "swing-as-much-as-you-can-to-see-who-dies-first" fiasco. The combat is much more deliberate and calculated. A good fighter can set the pace of the duel. Duels are a lot less random and chaotic. H2 also seems slower in game speed. Friends from H2 feel the same way. The Sabre dueling is not as balanced and strategic as the H2 system. But it is a new and expanded system, untested in a real online environment. There is hope that Raven will enhance and adjust the system the way they did for Heretic 2. Adding to it and balancing it for greater depth of play. (There is also hope for a Heretic 3......."The Resurrection") With the addition of force powers the sabre system shows less imbalance. Force powers add balance to the imbalance in No-Force dueling. That's where I'll be until the sabre system is adjusted. The Force point allocation in Defense could be the solution, just add more functionality to defense. One last thing...I don't think the sabre system is in a state of decline - Its just getting started!... in time with enhancements and Mods JO will most likely set the standard by which other melee games will be measured. I've tried them all, Blade, Rune, Die by the Sword, Draken, JK1 etc... and, I tried to get in to their control/combat system, but non compare to Raven's Heretic 2. I'm confident they'll listen to our concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beefshank Posted April 19, 2002 Share Posted April 19, 2002 I completely agree with the use of the chessey, strong style, downward slash, one hit-one kill move. And I would love to see a great patch that balances the styles better. But until then how about a simplier patch that lets the game host LIMIT the saber styles? So the host can simply eliminate strong style just like guns, or force powers. Until a real fix can be addressed, this would be a pleasant addition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCrusher Posted April 19, 2002 Share Posted April 19, 2002 Originally posted by Beefshank But until then how about a simplier patch that lets the game host LIMIT the saber styles? So the host can simply eliminate strong style just like guns, or force powers. Until a real fix can be addressed, this would be a pleasant addition. Yeah thats a good idea, Non Force dueling with only blue and yellow stance would be a quick fix and would probably be easy to Mod....hmmm It would be very popular with the Sabre only crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWH Lasker Posted April 19, 2002 Author Share Posted April 19, 2002 BeefShank - that is a fantastic idea! I am all for it. Simple, elegant, easy to implement (I hope) solution. Good thinking bud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beefshank Posted April 20, 2002 Share Posted April 20, 2002 Originally posted by FWH Lasker BeefShank - that is a fantastic idea! I am all for it. Simple, elegant, easy to implement (I hope) solution. Good thinking bud. Thanks! I'm glad you like it. Unfortunetly, I have absolutely no idea how to make mods, skins, or any of that stuff. So all I can do is come up with the idea. Anybody out there want to make it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted April 20, 2002 Share Posted April 20, 2002 I'd be a lot happier with MP combat if there was a block key. Or even if the blocking was done automatically. The description in here of the H2 style sounds great, actually. From what I can tell, this is actually the case in SP. You block more, and block automatically. Your stances actually make a difference, and taking a heavy swing really DOES leave you open. That's why I want MP to play like SP. It'd be cool if they could add in all the funky animations and such, but I'd be satisfied at this point with simply being able to block more moves. That said, I still maintain that making MP essentially identical to SP would fix a lot of these problems. Regardless of what the fix is, I think SOMETHING needs to be done with MP combat, and not just with the sabres. There are a lot of serious balance issues across the board. Force powers that need tweaking, gun vs. sabre issues that need tweaking, and sabre vs. sabre issues as well. Raven, I think, has its work cut out for itself, but by the same token, could really win some serious customer loyalty points (at least with me) if they addressed this stuff in a timely fashion and released a patch that didn't break the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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